How NOT to install propane lines.

[Stereo]

A forum contributor advised me to change out my propane hoses when I put in a new regulator. I had never paid the delivery system any attention, which I now know is a really bad idea. I should be at least pressure-testing the system on a regular basis. Anyway, I took a close look at the pipes and once again discovered a previous owner had done a bad/unsafe retrofit. Here's a picture of the connections below the propane tank that's in an enclosure lined with sheet metal. Can you count the things that are wrong?



This is what I found thus far:

1. They used flex hose from the propane to the delivery pipe. As I understand it, this type hose should only be used for one-time interior connections. Once bent, it should not be moved. On a camper, it is vulnerable to the constant movement.

2. It appears that at least the 90-degree elbow at the top is galvanized pipe rather than black pipe. Once I take this section apart, I'll be curious to see if other fittings are galvanized or black pipe.

3. The pass-through protector is no longer in the hole, making the flex pipe vulnerable to chafing.

4. On the threads, they used white teflon tape which is for water lines rather than yellow which is appropriate for gas.

4. I also believe that the flex hose is the wrong size. I'm guessing it's 1/4" and it's feeding a 3/4" OD (1/2" ID?) black pipe which feed two 3/8" branches that go to a furnace and a 2-burner stove top.

Do you see more things wrong? What's right is that the branches to the fixtures are copper tubing with flared fittings.

Now on to the fix. Once I remove the flex line, I'm going to try and install a longer section of vertical black pipe straight up into the propane bottle enclosure, add the proper fitting, and then connect to the new regulator with a low-pressure rubber hose meant for propane. I have a couple of questions for you:

1. I'm moving the location of my new furnace so if I stick with the present system, I'll have to cut the black pipe shorter and put in a new T. Removing the black pipe altogether would simplify the install. Could I just put a flared T fitting close to the regulator and run two 3/8" soft copper lines straight to the fixtures? The longest run would be about 5' from T to fixture connection or probably less since I could keep the lines inside, rather than having it go outside and then back inside. (Or is that not to code?) If I have to stick with black pipe, should I go with a smaller diameter?

If I can go with just two 3/8" lines, are there any other connections I need to put in? I don't know what that first vertical stub is on the black pipe. Is it for pressure testing, or might it have been for a connection for a future refrigerator? Actually, now that I'm typing this, I could run my new furnace line off that T.

Should I bother putting in shut-off valves near the fixtures? My old furnace had one built into the furnace. The Atwood 8012-II I'm installing does not. (I didn't have the money for a Propex and anyway was intimidated by all the tubing/hoses. The Atwood is a direct vent out the side.)

2. Do you have any tips on covering over smaller holes in plywood (under 1 1/2" diameter)? I'm envisioning some kind of plate that goes over the hole on the inside that threads into a plate on the outside, thus squeezing the two plates tight against the plywood. Does something like that exist? If not, do you have any other suggestions? Of course, I can always screw a patch over the hole but I'd like something more elegant.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[craig333]

I'd make sure my propane detector was working well.

 

[Stereo]

Yeah, that's next on my list of purchases, but not to worry; I won't be leaving this sloppy, unsafe job.

I just put a wrench to some of the fittings. It turns out the one that I thought was galvanized is copper with paint that gave it a silvery look. Knowing that, I'm wondering which of the two following options I should do to connect my bottle to the black pipe (through the regulator):

1. Put a longer piece of black pipe vertically through the floor into the propane bottle enclosure (which would require plugging the old hole and drilling a new hole through galvanized sheet metal. Yuck.) or...

2. Replace the flex hose (which is 3/8", not 1/4" as suspected) with 3/8" soft copper back to the regulator. With this option, instead of trying to bend the tubing 90", I would install a flared elbow fitting where the line changes from horizontal to vertical. If I take this option, does it matter that I'm going from 3/8 copper to 1/2" (I think) black pipe?

As an aside, I came across an ad for an RV mfg who said they use all copper - no black pipe - to save on weight.

 

[craig333]

On my FWC they used rubber hose to the back. The other connection is my mod.

 

[brian90744]

LP lines and fittings

I think you need to scrap all you have now, ½”Black pipe is for house construction, RV’s user copper lines & brass fitting. Best if you start with a (1) new LP regulator & hose. (2) Thru the LP box fitting. (3) 3/8” copper tubing with flared fittings to the range/heater/stove. First go to your local RV supply store and ask what do I need. Second go look a new campers and see how they routed the LP lines.
Just FYI=brian

 

[dwh]

My truck was professionally converted by someone back in the early 80's. It has all copper lines.

5g horizontal fixed tank with regulator bolted straight to the main shutoff valve which is screwed into the tank. I changed that out for a new 2-stage regulator when I got the truck.

Custom made rubber hose from the regulator to the copper (accounts for the flexing of the vehicle). The original hose worked (the truck had been sitting 15 years, and still had propane in the tank), but had age cracking. New one made at the local propane shop by an Armenian whose name I can't pronounce and who I just think of as "Hank Hill" cost me 20 bucks. (Actually, I'm joking. The Armenian's name is Mike.)

3/8" copper from that rubber hose up under the galley cabinet to a T which taps to feed the stove.

The copper line then continues to another T which taps off to feed the Suburban NT-12 furnace.

The line then continues on to another T which taps off to feed the Norcold 323 fridge.

The copper line then dead ends into the Suburban 3 gallon water heater (old pilot light style).

The copper lines are all properly strapped and don't move.

All appliances work, and they all work fine simultaneously. No problem with feed volume.

I do a soapy water leak test on all fittings as part of annual inspection and for years and years and miles and miles have never had a leak anywhere.

The shutoff valves are the main shutoff on the tank, and the furnace, fridge and water heater each has its own built-in shutoff valve.

I test the furnace annually, but I don't actually use it, because A) 12k btu is way too much for a camper van, so it cycles on/off constantly, turning the van into an oven in about a minute, then shutting down and doing it again a few minutes later (and pre-burn and after-burn running the fan for extra minutes every time), and B) it's such a bloody propane and battery HOG.


(I did detect a propane smell once. Drove me nuts trying to find the leak. Never found any leak. What I did find, was that the Wedgewood stove oven has a TWO POSITION off. In the first position, the oven is off, BUT THE PILOT IS STILL ON. In the second position, the pilot is also turned off. The propane smell was because the oven was off, but somehow was only in the first position - so the PILOT was still on. I never use the oven, and so I've never lit the pilot. I guess the oven control just got bumped somehow. I check all the stove valves by feel to make sure they are off. Now I check them visually as well.)

 

[java]

RV builders still use black pipe. Mine has it, but not cobbled together like the above. Use a rubber flex between the tank and the pipe. You could run a rubber flex all the way down the the start of the black pipe to eliminate the mess.

 

[Stereo]

Joquin, you win the prize for finding yet another bone-head install detail. I wasn't sure what type of fitting I had when I first posted.

dwh, You've let me know that I can just run one 3/8" copper line and T only once for the first-in-line appliance if I go that route. I always appreciate the thoroughness of your posts.

Java, I'll consider running rubber hose through the tank cabinet to the black pipe but my camper is stored outside and we have lots of squirrels. I've read that some people have had their hoses chewed through by critters with strange taste preferences...or evil intentions.

I'm still curious what you think about my idea to run one (vs. two. Thanks DWH.) 3/8" copper line through the propane compartment sidewall into the camper rather than running it out the floor and then back in. That would put one additional T into the interior. DWH, is your line inside or outside? How about yours, Craig33?

And I'm still hoping for some great idea on how to patch holes.

Thanks for your tips!

 

[craig333]

Is your cabinet not metal? I can't see squirrels getting into mine. Spider, wasps etc, sure. Mine T's inside the camper (one to the water heater the other then T's to the stove and the heater). Not sure exactly what you meant. I don't like the idea of doing copper to the tank. Too much movement over time.

 

[Dave Bennett]

US RV builders use a lot of consumer grade crap that is great for on road.

Take those hard copper lines up and down baja or saline valley road a few times and how will they stand up to the vibrations? I would think that flexible propane rated hoses would be more reliable off road in the long term if properly routed and protected from chafing.

.02

 

[craig333]

I'm not concerned with the lines inside the camper and I've done Saline. Its the tank compartment. The tank gets moved in and out, may even move a bit (mines only tied down in one spot). It gets put on and off the tank. Thats the part that needs a flexible line.

 

[Stereo]

Is your cabinet not metal?

Yes but I was referring to Java's suggestion to run rubber from the regulator to the existing black pipe which is outside the box.

 

[dwh]

DWH, is your line inside or outside?

Rubber hose to copper is outside. First section of copper runs from outside up through the floor into the galley cabinet. Two Ts later (stove and furnace) it then pops back down through the floor, runs from starboard to port across under the floor (between the frame rails) and pops back up under the couch where it Ts to feed the fridge and then ends at the water heater.

Looking at yours, I'd probably run a copper from the black pipe up to the tank compartment, and a rubber from the copper to the regulator. Or copper to the regulator and then rubber from regulator to tank.

At the other end of the black pipe, copper to the appliances. The black pipe doesn't matter - it's obviously big enough - and it's already there so why fix it if it ain't broke?

 

[dwh]

Take those hard copper lines up and down baja or saline valley road a few times and how will they stand up to the vibrations?

Yea well...it's a van. The body is steel and doesn't flex. The copper is strapped to the body. The appliances are bolted to the body. Nothing moves. Nothing can move. Nothing fails. Expect maybe that rubber line between the regulator and the copper, but I inspect it every time I get the tank filled when I get down on hands and knees to eyeball the level gauge.

And this truck has had a lot of hard miles (as in unpaved and rough - enough to tear up the front radius arm bushings...twice (shoulda went with urethane the first time those bushings failed, but I was trying to never spend any money on this truck that wasn't absolutely required - I only paid $200 for the damned thing)). So at this point I'm fairly confident that after 30 years and 130k miles and me beating the crap out of the rig since I got it (the last 60k miles) that since the copper hasn't failed yet - it prolly ain't a gonna.

Also, the automatic tranny has (factory) hard lines with compression fittings leading from the tranny to the cooler. True, they are steel not copper, but they also have a lot more play and movement in them than the copper does. Have never had a tranny coolant line fail either.



Though I did prang one on a rock once and crushed it back during my hard-core wheeling days. See that tranny cooler loop on the FRONT of the forward crossmember right behind the tie rod? Don't ask me WHY Ford did that on a frigging 4x4 Bronco...but I found a way to break it.




[EDIT: After sleeping on it, I woke up this morning and remembered it wasn't a tranny line - it was the power steering return line. It was a loop that just ran over and back - I assume it was for cooling since it had no other reason to be there. Ford does that sometimes. My '69 Lincoln had a little cooler loop in the hydraulics (power steering and hydroboost for the brakes). My fix on the Bronco was to cut the line and get rid of the extra loop. Instead, I ran the power steering return line through a small tranny cooler mounted next to the radiator. That little cooler was always the hottest thing under the hood. After that, I went ahead and installed a power steering cooler on every other truck I built.]

 

[Stereo]

My plan

After all the helpful advice and a lot of internal back-and-forth about how I want to fix my gas line, I've finally decided on my plan. If anyone sees a problem with it, I'd love to hear about it.

From the cylinder:

1. Acme nut. (Is this a mistake? Some people have issues with the safety features but I've never had a problem with my cheapo Camco fitting. Should I use a POL instead?)

2. High pressure hose to the regulator (I don't have room to install the regulator directly to the cylinder.). Might be a pigtail with acme nut.

3. New 2-stage regulator (I'm taking the Propex rep at his word that a 2-stage can avoid some issues that might be caused by a single stage. There's also the benefit that I can adjust the pressure on a 2-stage, unlike most modern-day single stage, as I understand it. I camp a lot around 10k, so reducing the pressure should help the appliances burn well.)

4. NIPT to flare fitting.

5. 3/8" OD soft copper through the sidewall directly into the camper. (I'm hoping there isn't some reg about taking the line outside first. DWH, do you see any reason your line couldn't have gone straight into the interior? Or is your propane cylinder outside to start with?)

6. T to the furnace.

7. Shutoff valve(s). If they're pricey, I think I'll only put one on the furnace. It seems more likely that something would go wrong with that and that it could take longer to get fixed.

8. Lines well fastened.

The reason I've decided to not use the black pipe has to do with the location of the hole into the propane cabinet. Coming off the black pipe, I would want it to be as close to the camper walls as possible so as not to be in the way during loading/unloading. To keep it tight, I'd have to make a sharp turn from the underside up through the exiting hole. With copper, I figure I'd pinch it since I don't have experience bending copper. I could put in a 90-degree fitting but that's two more places where I could develop a leak.

With a rubber hose, the amount I would have to loop it to make the turn would probably cause it to stick out more than I'd like.

Extending the black pipe along the underside of the camper and putting in an elbow at the hole would require an exact length of pipe. My beloved home-town hardware store would have cut the pipe and threads, but they closed down within a month of HD opening. More joints means more leak potential too.

I considered drilling a hole directly above the vertical leg of the black pipe, but trying to drill tight in a corner, through galvanized metal, was not something I looked forward to.

Thus, I'm planning on replacing the whole line.