National Luna Split-Charge System Charging Issues?
- Thread starter dstock
- Start date
dstock
Explorer
So to keep this short...unless your battery is dead, Sears does not care if it's not in spec and will not replace them. They don't want to hear that Odyssey makes the battery, or what the resting voltage should be, or any other relevant information. The manager went so far as to say Odyssey makes some of the battery. They did give me a nice test report on both batteries, it was highly technical and they printed it out for me. Here it is:
There it is folks in all it's glory "Battery is good". So much information there, very hard to digest it all in one sitting, might have to look at again tomorrow to make sure I didn't miss anything.
So that's it, if either battery goes completely dead in the next 25 months which is when the warranty is up, I will go for an exchange. If they actually make it the remaining 2 years, and then die, I'm hoping there will be something better on the market.
I will be purchasing a group 31 in the next couple months for my trailer build, which will be going into a PowerPak from Arkpak (not the same as the ArkPak powerpack). Hard to say what it will be, might go Optima yellow top hoping they got their move to Mexico issues sorted out, or maybe I will spend the extra on a real Odyssey battery.
I'm only sorry I didn't take a picture of the pallet of dead Platinums in the "testing" room.
There it is folks in all it's glory "Battery is good". So much information there, very hard to digest it all in one sitting, might have to look at again tomorrow to make sure I didn't miss anything.
So that's it, if either battery goes completely dead in the next 25 months which is when the warranty is up, I will go for an exchange. If they actually make it the remaining 2 years, and then die, I'm hoping there will be something better on the market.
I will be purchasing a group 31 in the next couple months for my trailer build, which will be going into a PowerPak from Arkpak (not the same as the ArkPak powerpack). Hard to say what it will be, might go Optima yellow top hoping they got their move to Mexico issues sorted out, or maybe I will spend the extra on a real Odyssey battery.
I'm only sorry I didn't take a picture of the pallet of dead Platinums in the "testing" room.
Martyn
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
OK, so how did they test batteries, and what were the actual results?
I presume they would have load tested them. Do you have the actual results, or can you take them to an auto parts store and ask them to test the batteries and get the actual results.
Without this information we are nowhere.
I presume they would have load tested them. Do you have the actual results, or can you take them to an auto parts store and ask them to test the batteries and get the actual results.
Without this information we are nowhere.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
They probably have the same sort of test rig I saw at O'Reilly when I bought new batteries for my truck a while back. I think it was made by Schumacher.
It's a big box with a tray to set the battery on.
I watched the guy use it while I was there. He hooked up the cables, took the CCA and RC numbers off the battery, entered them into the computer, the thing goofed around a bit and then displayed a result with a prompt asking if he wanted a printout.
EDIT: I think it's a charger too.
It's a big box with a tray to set the battery on.
I watched the guy use it while I was there. He hooked up the cables, took the CCA and RC numbers off the battery, entered them into the computer, the thing goofed around a bit and then displayed a result with a prompt asking if he wanted a printout.
EDIT: I think it's a charger too.
dstock
Explorer
This is essentially what they did and yes it charges as well.
In a nutshell, I would have loved to have the data from the testing unit and thought I was getting such in the "report", but the way things went down it was too late by the time I noticed.
Sears tester guy, basically tested the batteries and said they were good, we discussed resting rates and he went and got Manager #1. Manager #1 looked at results but understood the resting rate issue and basically said even if he gave me new ones I'd have the same issues down the road. Manager #1 suggested he just refund my money, which I agreed to. In the course of the "refund" he went to get paper for the printer and disappeared for about 10 minutes. Upon his return he had Manager #2 in tow who basically stopped the refund made a big show of re-testing the batteries and then became very argumentative. At this point I was an hour in and getting no where and things were spiraling downward quickly.
It was obvious Manager#2 was not going to budge an inch, so I decided to take my batteries and go. It was at this point he handed me the reports and in the heat of the moment I didn't even look at them or I would have seen they were useless.
What have we learned? Sears (or at least this one) doesn't care about battery specs and resting rates, all they care about is if there testing machine says it's good. When the battery can no longer crank over the engine, I will take it back and go for a refund. If it's out of warranty, then I will move on in hopes of finding something better, or at least a manufacturer that stands behind their product.
I have to take the Jeep in to the dealer in the next week or so, and I will have them double check all is good with the electrical system while it's there.
After all of this, I don't believe there is anything currently wrong with the NL system as it appears to be engaging and dis-engaging as it should, but will continue to keep my eye on it (and everything else).
Will update the thread when there are changes, I suspect the main battery is going to continue to decline as it's resting rate is now lower than the aux each morning.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
Sounds like BS to me. Did he give any rational reason *why* you'd have the same problem down the road?
I would apply that to just about any large chain store. While I was picking up my new batteries, I saw one of the clerks show a Gel-type battery to a customer and state that is has "no acid". Just totally clueless.
Bummer. I just have a feeling the batteries were pushed into venting.
So to keep this short...unless your battery is dead, Sears does not care if it's not in spec and will not replace them. They don't want to hear that Odyssey makes the battery, or what the resting voltage should be, or any other relevant information. The manager went so far as to say Odyssey makes some of the battery. They did give me a nice test report on both batteries, it was highly technical and they printed it out for me. Here it is:
There it is folks in all it's glory "Battery is good". So much information there, very hard to digest it all in one sitting, might have to look at again tomorrow to make sure I didn't miss anything.
So that's it, if either battery goes completely dead in the next 25 months which is when the warranty is up, I will go for an exchange. If they actually make it the remaining 2 years, and then die, I'm hoping there will be something better on the market.
I will be purchasing a group 31 in the next couple months for my trailer build, which will be going into a PowerPak from Arkpak (not the same as the ArkPak powerpack). Hard to say what it will be, might go Optima yellow top hoping they got their move to Mexico issues sorted out, or maybe I will spend the extra on a real Odyssey battery.
I'm only sorry I didn't take a picture of the pallet of dead Platinums in the "testing" room.
I'm not sure the solution is going with Odyessey. I have 2 Odyesseys in my Tacoma with a NL setup and I am having the same issue of the isolator opening to the second battery. Have you thought of just discharging the battery completely at home (making it dead) and taking back to Sears? I know that seems shady but its also a bit of their medicine.
chet6.7
Explorer
I was thinking the same thing.
The employees are probably following a company script,give them a dead battery so they can see a bad battery that needs to be replaced.
dstock
Explorer
It's interesting you are having the same issue with your Tacoma. I thought mine was fixed but I was idling with the a/c running for about 15 minutes the other day and I heard the clunk of the solenoid disengaging. Look down at the DBC and sure enough only the main was being charged, checked my volt gauge and alternator we still putting out 14.1.
Kind of at a loss at this point, obviously my main battery is having an issue, so I am going to swap batteries around and see what happens. Sears won't do anything, (have found many instances of this online after further research) ,I'm going to put the Aux in the main position for a while and do the 5-6 time discharge-charge cycle recommended by Odyssey to see if I can bring back the main.
dstock
Explorer
Between this thread and the Odyssey vs Diehard I'm losing track of where I am posting...but since I'm the OP here, I'm going to update here.
I started the process of recovering my Diehard Platinums using the discharge-charge cycle based on the Odyssey manual and using a 25amp Odyssey Ultimizer charger.
I did one cycle on the Aux battery, discharge to about 12.0v and then charge for 24 hours, let rest for 8 hours and then check voltage. This got me 12.78 volts. Waited another 8 hours, and checked again, same reading.
At this point, I swapped it out with my Main battery so I could do the same thing to it. This morning, the Aux battery, now in the place of the main in my Jeep, was at 12.5. A couple things to consider here, I had already deactivated the security system which brings on the headlights, interior lights etc., and I also have everything that was hooked up to the aux battery, connected to the main battery. This consists of several USB jacks, sPOD, and winch (always connected to main). These things do use small amounts of power even when nothing is connected. An then there is the Jeep itself, which is loaded with computers, etc.
While I go through the recovery process on the main battery, I am going to unhook everything not factory from the battery in the Jeep and see what happens overnight. I checked for parasitic drain before but not to the extent of pulling fuses etc. So I am going to get a bit more thorough in that respect. It's also not uncommon for the current generation of Jeep Wrangler to have an issue with the TPIM module, that can also cause a drain, although from what I have read, it's usually more severe in that the Jeep won't start in the morning. While the JK is under warranty, my closest dealer sucks so I am going to as much analyzing as I can before I take it in to one of the better dealerships.
As far as the NL system goes, after much research and advice I have ordered a 500amp BlueSea ACR with remote to test out and see if it works any better for my needs/driving habits.
Will update once I have more data to share, appreciate the help from everyone.
I started the process of recovering my Diehard Platinums using the discharge-charge cycle based on the Odyssey manual and using a 25amp Odyssey Ultimizer charger.
I did one cycle on the Aux battery, discharge to about 12.0v and then charge for 24 hours, let rest for 8 hours and then check voltage. This got me 12.78 volts. Waited another 8 hours, and checked again, same reading.
At this point, I swapped it out with my Main battery so I could do the same thing to it. This morning, the Aux battery, now in the place of the main in my Jeep, was at 12.5. A couple things to consider here, I had already deactivated the security system which brings on the headlights, interior lights etc., and I also have everything that was hooked up to the aux battery, connected to the main battery. This consists of several USB jacks, sPOD, and winch (always connected to main). These things do use small amounts of power even when nothing is connected. An then there is the Jeep itself, which is loaded with computers, etc.
While I go through the recovery process on the main battery, I am going to unhook everything not factory from the battery in the Jeep and see what happens overnight. I checked for parasitic drain before but not to the extent of pulling fuses etc. So I am going to get a bit more thorough in that respect. It's also not uncommon for the current generation of Jeep Wrangler to have an issue with the TPIM module, that can also cause a drain, although from what I have read, it's usually more severe in that the Jeep won't start in the morning. While the JK is under warranty, my closest dealer sucks so I am going to as much analyzing as I can before I take it in to one of the better dealerships.
As far as the NL system goes, after much research and advice I have ordered a 500amp BlueSea ACR with remote to test out and see if it works any better for my needs/driving habits.
Will update once I have more data to share, appreciate the help from everyone.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
Good that you were able to recover to full resting voltage.
Weird in one way, in that lead-acid batteries don't develop a memory like a NiCad. Knowing that, and trying to figure out why that recovery procedure worked...so far all I've come up with is that perhaps the TPPL AGM high-pressure sandwich design is experiencing stratification and their recovery procedure is their way of "stirring things up".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–acid_battery#Stratification
"A typical lead–acid battery contains a mixture with varying concentrations of water and acid. Sulfuric acid has a higher density than water, which causes the acid formed at the plates during charging to flow downward and collect at the bottom of the battery. Eventually the mixture will again reach uniform composition by diffusion, but this is a very slow process. Repeated cycles of partial charging and discharging will increase stratification of the electrolyte, reducing the capacity and performance of the battery because the lack of acid on top limits plate activation. The stratification also promotes corrosion on the upper half of the plates and sulfonation at the bottom.[23]
Periodic overcharging creates gaseous reaction products at the plate, causing convection currents which mix the electrolyte and resolve the stratification. Mechanical stirring of the electrolyte would have the same effect. Batteries in moving vehicles are also subject to sloshing and splashing in the cells, as the vehicle accelerates, brakes, and turns."
That last part, that I put in bold is important, because AGMs *don't* get that stirring action from being in a moving vehicle.
Weird in one way, in that lead-acid batteries don't develop a memory like a NiCad. Knowing that, and trying to figure out why that recovery procedure worked...so far all I've come up with is that perhaps the TPPL AGM high-pressure sandwich design is experiencing stratification and their recovery procedure is their way of "stirring things up".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead–acid_battery#Stratification
"A typical lead–acid battery contains a mixture with varying concentrations of water and acid. Sulfuric acid has a higher density than water, which causes the acid formed at the plates during charging to flow downward and collect at the bottom of the battery. Eventually the mixture will again reach uniform composition by diffusion, but this is a very slow process. Repeated cycles of partial charging and discharging will increase stratification of the electrolyte, reducing the capacity and performance of the battery because the lack of acid on top limits plate activation. The stratification also promotes corrosion on the upper half of the plates and sulfonation at the bottom.[23]
Periodic overcharging creates gaseous reaction products at the plate, causing convection currents which mix the electrolyte and resolve the stratification. Mechanical stirring of the electrolyte would have the same effect. Batteries in moving vehicles are also subject to sloshing and splashing in the cells, as the vehicle accelerates, brakes, and turns."
That last part, that I put in bold is important, because AGMs *don't* get that stirring action from being in a moving vehicle.
dstock
Explorer
Update: After doing the full discharge to 10 volts per the spec, and then recharging for 24 hours, battery is now resting at 12.9.
It's been off the charger for over 24 hours.
Will be doing the same for the aux.
Going to swap the main back into the jeep today and have an appointment on Monday at the dealer to check the electrical system.
It's been off the charger for over 24 hours.
Will be doing the same for the aux.
Going to swap the main back into the jeep today and have an appointment on Monday at the dealer to check the electrical system.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
Yea. I'm really thinking it must be stratification. Equalizing is one of the ways to stir things up in a flooded battery and reduce stratification, but you can't very well do that with a sealed battery.
So perhaps draining it deeply, and then pumping it back up with a full charge, is the only way to reduce stratification in an AGM (the same would probably be true for a GEL).
Well...if that's true, then I suppose even if you had the right size (big enough) charger, you might have to add a periodic maintenance step of "drain till dead, then full recharge...maybe a couple of times" to properly maintain an AGM - any AGM.
So perhaps draining it deeply, and then pumping it back up with a full charge, is the only way to reduce stratification in an AGM (the same would probably be true for a GEL).
Well...if that's true, then I suppose even if you had the right size (big enough) charger, you might have to add a periodic maintenance step of "drain till dead, then full recharge...maybe a couple of times" to properly maintain an AGM - any AGM.