AED for expedition use?

pugslyyy

Expedition Vehicle Engineer Guy
I admit that this is not something I've looked at - but talking with the NPS folks earlier this year about how they pretty much have AEDs everywhere has got me thinking -

Anyone carry an AED with them (solo or club)?

If so, what brand/model?
 

1leglance

2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
I have been watching the refurbs on ebay and some medical supply sites for a while. Good units are still over $500...but my son's Scout Troop is about convinced to get one due to all the older guys (and heavy guys) who come along on hikes and campouts.

Someday I will have one in my rig, just not yet.
 

pugslyyy

Expedition Vehicle Engineer Guy
A good friend of my dad's died years ago before AEDs were available. I'm convinced he would have survived if they had been. I see the on golf courses, hotels, etc. as you say, only a matter of time.
 

robert

Expedition Leader
I think they're a great idea for group trips and especially guided trips but you need someone trained in how to use them (most anyone can these days) and, just as important, how to care for the person afterwards until you can get them ALS care. Folks need to understand too that there is a big difference between being in the woods and in a major city near a hospital and that unlike on TV, not everybody who gets shocked sits up and starts carrying on a conversation and lives happily ever after.
 

1leglance

2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
I guess I should clarify that as an ICU & Recovery Room RN I code people often, shocking them and then knowing what to do after is a common thing for me.
That said, I would still recommend one if a person either has a cardiac history or travels with someone who does. There is nothing else that you can do for Vfib/Vtach other than shock a person.
Chest compressions suck and in remote areas are worthless.
Shock'em and if they come back take care of them till you get the rescue guys on site or get to a hospital.
 

cdthiker

Meandering Idaho
The problem with carrying one in the back country is what do you do next ?
So you get Return of spontaneous pulse. Now what ?
These people need ACLS ( advanced cardiac life support )

Say you do manage to get a pule back, the next hurdle is trying to avoid neuro deficits. Odds are this person is going to die.
Unless that sudden arrest was secondary to a breathing problem odds of making this work are slim.

Also, There is a only a short window where the heart is in the right type of Vfib ( corse vs fine) Studies show that it takes roughly four mins for the heart to lose its ATP 9 think of that like the gas in the tank) No gas in the tank wont matter if you jump start the batt. With that being said, compressions can bring back some ATP. But still it is a dicy sort of deal. Say you have an AED that can not tell the diffenerce between corse and fine ? all of a sudden you have just introduced a shock to a rythem that i can not work with and you flat line them.

Sure there are a lot of what if's here. What it comes down to is that if some one has a true cardiac arrest in the back country there is very little you can do for them.
Start Compressions.
it does work some times

check out this clip of a fellow who survived 96 mins of CPR
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZgoMhgZEJg&noredirect=1
 

robert

Expedition Leader
As Lance said, it's a good option if you have the resources. One thing that occurs to me off the top of my head is the definite increase over the last decade or so in the number of younger people with cardiac issues, often unknown until an event occurs. With our general poor health in the US we're seeing people develop what were typically "old age" problems at younger ages too. Lightening strikes are another (remote) possibility.

On the bright side, there seems to be an increase in the numbers of people who are receiving at least some medical training even if it's only through a high school sports program or their workplace. While those of us who have hands on experience with working codes know the difficulties and the chances, it also provides a sense of at least trying- both to you the provider and to those around. I've worked people I knew and I can tell you that even though I understood that they probably weren't going to make it (they didn't), it probably helps me to sleep better at night knowing I did all I could and it gave the families a bit of comfort. I'm sure it would be awkward if I had just walked in and said "Yep, they're dead". A goodly number of the codes we work aren't for the benefit of the patient. :ylsmoke:
 

cdthiker

Meandering Idaho
As Lance said, it's a good option if you have the resources. One thing that occurs to me off the top of my head is the definite increase over the last decade or so in the number of younger people with cardiac issues, often unknown until an event occurs. With our general poor health in the US we're seeing people develop what were typically "old age" problems at younger ages too. Lightening strikes are another (remote) possibility.

On the bright side, there seems to be an increase in the numbers of people who are receiving at least some medical training even if it's only through a high school sports program or their workplace. While those of us who have hands on experience with working codes know the difficulties and the chances, it also provides a sense of at least trying- both to you the provider and to those around. I've worked people I knew and I can tell you that even though I understood that they probably weren't going to make it (they didn't), it probably helps me to sleep better at night knowing I did all I could and it gave the families a bit of comfort. I'm sure it would be awkward if I had just walked in and said "Yep, they're dead". A goodly number of the codes we work aren't for the benefit of the patient. :ylsmoke:

Robert,
That is a valid point. Often times the work is for you, it is for the family, it is for the bystander.

I think that a much better tool to carry would be training. Go get a Wilderness First Responder if you are going to play in the remote parts of the lovely world.
Sure, I am biased since I teach the class. But I tell you what, that training has helped me out more the a lot of the tools I have been carry on my ambulance for the last ten years.

Codes suck. Know what to do when they happen.
So that way you can do something. Remember, sadly they are already dead so anything is better then nothing.
Cheers,
td
 

spunky2268

Adventurer
A few years ago, we were fortunate enough to have a manufacturer that produced AEDs not much bigger than a paperback. Cardioscience, IIRC. Every one of us carried one in our specialist and physician packs, plus we had one Zoll multiparameter monitor/defibrillator that we could use to manage patients when necessary. To me, it was worth it to have that extra few pounds on my back as we're often split into squads and might need the AED if one of our folks went down (even the search K9s!). But, I'm a bit of a Clydesdale, so weight on my back for miles doesn't really cause me to complain. For some reason, the manufacturer of the sweet little AEDs stopped making them. The pads were expensive to replace, and they need replaced before they expire to make sure they will sense and deliver current properly. Replacing pads, batteries, and upkeep are often unforeseen expenses, when you don't have Uncle Sam footing the bill. Something to consider. I don't have one myself and don't feel the need to have one. A defibrillator is a one-trick pony, and I can spend that money on lots of other things that will make a difference in my trip and getting me and mine home.
 

4x4x4doors

Explorer
Remember, sadly they are already dead so anything is better then nothing.
Cheers,
td

When I was still working, I was one of the people who kept the basic CPR/AED training cert. This point above is one thing that was consistent from year to year no matter who the trainers were. If you try and it doesn't work, s/he is no worse off than if you had done nothing.

The 4wd club discussed briefly getting one of the AEDs to take with us but ultimately decided it would turn into one of those things that was always in the vehicle of the guy who didn't come this time.

The trainers also generally talked about the AED being most likely to be used in the work environment as a result of electrocution and less often as a result of natural causes.
 

medicfung

New member
I carry a cardiac science powerheart G3 pro plus a full airway/ 02 kit and in conjunction with my sat phone I feel comfortable enough on my expeditions. It has 3 lead monitoring capabilities so you can hook up a patient complaining of chest pain/ SOB and see what's going on. Granted I'm not carrying any cardiac meds on these trips, but being able to assess the situation before the patient codes, assuming the patient is alert and oriented, and compensating, is priceless. The sat phone will help get pt medivac'ed.
And since I have this gear for professional work, I tend to carry in on family trips since it's all contained in a back pack and doesn't take up much room. That pack is also a full trauma kit with pull out med pouch and Iv pouch with all my lines and catheters. Spare batteries, pads and electrodes are all housed in the AED.
I'm in the camp of better to have than not have.
 

Kiomon

Adventurer
We carry one in our rig. It's one of those things that you never know if it will help. But I saw a guy at work be saved first hand by one, and it changed my perspective that day. We spend tons of money on our rigs. Sweet little camping stoves or high end water filters, but we rarely spend on the emergency / medical side of things. We have a Phillips AED, two sat phones, and medevac coverage. You never know what
 
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Kiomon

Adventurer
We carry one in our rig. It's one of those things that you never know if it will help. But I saw a guy at work be saved first hand by one, and it changed my perspective that day. We spend tons of money on our rigs. Sweet little camping stoves or high end water filters, but we rarely spend on the emergency / medical side of things. We have a Phillips AED, two sat phones, plb, and medevac coverage. You never know what can happen. Why not spend a little money against the worst case scenario. I know I would never forgive myself if something did and I wasn't prepared because I wanted to save some money!
 

mezmochill

Is outside
I think they're a great idea for group trips and especially guided trips but you need someone trained in how to use them (most anyone can these days) and, just as important, how to care for the person afterwards until you can get them ALS care. Folks need to understand too that there is a big difference between being in the woods and in a major city near a hospital and that unlike on TV, not everybody who gets shocked sits up and starts carrying on a conversation and lives happily ever after.

He speaks the truth.
 

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