Off-Grid Camping- Solar Power/Wind Power- Ac, Heat, Fridge, Lights, Etc
- Thread starter Projectm880
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Projectm880
Duddie's Adventure
Good to know. Maybe I've been misreading the drain of a 12v Fridge. If this is the case I may Be able to add to the amount of Electronic I would like to run or the power needs I require.
I still want to start with a Solar System that I can add onto as I move up to a full camper.
With that being said, I think a single battery single panel would be a good starting point. But I would like to have the Fuses, Controllers, Chargers, Monitors, for a larger setup that will be put in a camper. I would rather add panels and batteries rather then replacing everything in between each time I up grade. I am fine with a over kill setup because I know I will use it to its potential down the road.
My issue is I'm really not sure how to start as far as wiring diagrams and or equipment needed in between the solar panel and batteries. I've seen many setups on here some that work great and some that have been swapped out as they upgrade.
I still want to start with a Solar System that I can add onto as I move up to a full camper.
With that being said, I think a single battery single panel would be a good starting point. But I would like to have the Fuses, Controllers, Chargers, Monitors, for a larger setup that will be put in a camper. I would rather add panels and batteries rather then replacing everything in between each time I up grade. I am fine with a over kill setup because I know I will use it to its potential down the road.
My issue is I'm really not sure how to start as far as wiring diagrams and or equipment needed in between the solar panel and batteries. I've seen many setups on here some that work great and some that have been swapped out as they upgrade.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
I wouldn't bother with less than 100 watts of solar. As for what size charge controller you'll ultimately need, that will depend on the roof-top real estate you'll have available on the future camper. Solar panels aren't small. A 140w Kyocera runs about 2' x 5':
http://www.solar-electric.com/solar...fbs-140-watt-polycrystalline-solar-panel.html
So how many will you ultimately end up with?
For speccing out a complete setup, take look at what is included in a kit:
http://www.solar-electric.com/solar-panels-mounts-kits-accessories/prsy/rvandsmbasoc.html
Speccing out a system for a mobile setup is done a bit differently than speccing out a system for a fixed location, such as a cabin or a house.
First, what is the available space for solar mounting? That will determine what is the max wattage you can fit.
Once you know that, you'll know what size charge controller you'll need.
The wattage, combined with your location (hours of good sun per day) will tell you your expected daily harvest.
Then, what size battery do you need to store that harvested energy? If you want long life from the battery, don't drain it below 50%, so whatever your expected daily harvest is, double that to get the minimum battery size you'll need.
Once you know what your battery size is, then 50% of that will be your daily energy budget.
For speccing out a system for a fixed location, you work it from the other direction:
Start with the loads you need to supply to figure out your daily energy budget.
That tells you what size battery you need.
That, combined with location, tells you what size solar array you need to recharge that battery in a single day.
http://www.solar-electric.com/solar...fbs-140-watt-polycrystalline-solar-panel.html
So how many will you ultimately end up with?
For speccing out a complete setup, take look at what is included in a kit:
http://www.solar-electric.com/solar-panels-mounts-kits-accessories/prsy/rvandsmbasoc.html
Speccing out a system for a mobile setup is done a bit differently than speccing out a system for a fixed location, such as a cabin or a house.
First, what is the available space for solar mounting? That will determine what is the max wattage you can fit.
Once you know that, you'll know what size charge controller you'll need.
The wattage, combined with your location (hours of good sun per day) will tell you your expected daily harvest.
Then, what size battery do you need to store that harvested energy? If you want long life from the battery, don't drain it below 50%, so whatever your expected daily harvest is, double that to get the minimum battery size you'll need.
Once you know what your battery size is, then 50% of that will be your daily energy budget.
For speccing out a system for a fixed location, you work it from the other direction:
Start with the loads you need to supply to figure out your daily energy budget.
That tells you what size battery you need.
That, combined with location, tells you what size solar array you need to recharge that battery in a single day.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
Then, you add the extras. For a meter like a Tri-Metric you'll need to add a shunt. Won't hurt to also have a decent shore power charger for floating at home or recharging from shore power or gen when needed (not enough good sun).
Fuses protect the wire. So when you know what size wire you'll be using, you'll know what size fuses you'll need to protect the wire. How will you know what size wire you'll need? You'll know that when you know what size your solar array will be.
Fuses protect the wire. So when you know what size wire you'll be using, you'll know what size fuses you'll need to protect the wire. How will you know what size wire you'll need? You'll know that when you know what size your solar array will be.
Projectm880
Duddie's Adventure
Thank you DWH,
Very helpful information, and I can see the reasoning behind not wasting time with a panel under 100w.
Mounting real estate will be very similar to the picture attached below. That is the setup I'm working towards right now. I'm currently in the process of building the truck, then I will begin the trailer/U-haul Camper setup . I don;t know who owns the setup on the attached picture, that is just the trailer setup I'm basing mine on.
So what I will work toward is collecting the equipment I need to run several panels and batteries but until the install i will start off with a single panel and battery setup. Again i may over build the setup for a single panel and battery, but It will be able to be upgraded easily into the Camper. My plan is to make the whole camper 12v to cut down on running big inverters. I want to use specific 12v electronics.
I will start getting together a Spec list and then run it pass all of you to see if the plan will work. I will attempt to draw out a wire diagram based on the ones Ive seen here to see if I truly understand the concept here.
Thanks again for the help.
Very helpful information, and I can see the reasoning behind not wasting time with a panel under 100w.
Mounting real estate will be very similar to the picture attached below. That is the setup I'm working towards right now. I'm currently in the process of building the truck, then I will begin the trailer/U-haul Camper setup . I don;t know who owns the setup on the attached picture, that is just the trailer setup I'm basing mine on.
So what I will work toward is collecting the equipment I need to run several panels and batteries but until the install i will start off with a single panel and battery setup. Again i may over build the setup for a single panel and battery, but It will be able to be upgraded easily into the Camper. My plan is to make the whole camper 12v to cut down on running big inverters. I want to use specific 12v electronics.
I will start getting together a Spec list and then run it pass all of you to see if the plan will work. I will attempt to draw out a wire diagram based on the ones Ive seen here to see if I truly understand the concept here.
Thanks again for the help.
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1stDeuce
Explorer
If you want to go solar, there are a couple of places selling used Kyocera 120W panels on ebay right now for good prices. (good is just under $1/Watt)
I just bought two from solarblvd's ebay store, and they look and work good. I'm still getting rated OC voltage and loaded amperage out of them, and they're 14 years old!
For a simple system, I would recommend using a Morningstar Sunsaver controller. If you go with one panel, use the 10A version. If you go with two, then get the 20A version. (Which should be fine with up to 3 120w panels if you're not tilting them.) The Morningstar Pro-star is a good one to, but is a little more expensive with little additional benefit IMO.
If you think you really want to geek out and maximize use of your solar, handybob is now recommending using a combo of SC-2030 and TM-2030 from bogart engineering. VERY nice setup, and not horribly expensive, but you do need to get your geek on to set it up correctly and get the most out of it.
If it hasn't already been suggested, read handybob's solar blog and follow his suggestions. If you're not a reader, I'll boil it down for you: Use the shortest wire runs possible, use big wire, put the charge controller with 2' of the batteries, flooded batteries work fine, and mount the panels where they won't get shadowed by other roof mounted things like vents.
From my experience, 2 120W panels would be a LOT of solar for a little camper like you're planning, even with a 12v compressor fridge. I use a propane fridge, but we winter camp in my truck camper using the 12v heater all night with only 85W of solar and one Group 31 battery and it does fine.
Chris
I just bought two from solarblvd's ebay store, and they look and work good. I'm still getting rated OC voltage and loaded amperage out of them, and they're 14 years old!
For a simple system, I would recommend using a Morningstar Sunsaver controller. If you go with one panel, use the 10A version. If you go with two, then get the 20A version. (Which should be fine with up to 3 120w panels if you're not tilting them.) The Morningstar Pro-star is a good one to, but is a little more expensive with little additional benefit IMO.
If you think you really want to geek out and maximize use of your solar, handybob is now recommending using a combo of SC-2030 and TM-2030 from bogart engineering. VERY nice setup, and not horribly expensive, but you do need to get your geek on to set it up correctly and get the most out of it.
If it hasn't already been suggested, read handybob's solar blog and follow his suggestions. If you're not a reader, I'll boil it down for you: Use the shortest wire runs possible, use big wire, put the charge controller with 2' of the batteries, flooded batteries work fine, and mount the panels where they won't get shadowed by other roof mounted things like vents.
From my experience, 2 120W panels would be a LOT of solar for a little camper like you're planning, even with a 12v compressor fridge. I use a propane fridge, but we winter camp in my truck camper using the 12v heater all night with only 85W of solar and one Group 31 battery and it does fine.
Chris
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How do the Kyocera panels above compare to the Renogy panels? Amazon has a 100 watt kit for $180 bucks which is significantly cheaper than the link above: http://www.amazon.com/Renogy-100W-M...1?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1424732684&sr=1-1
1stDeuce
Explorer
I would stay away from "kits" off the web. Generally, the lower priced ones use a very poor charge controller which will not treat your battery well. For smaller systems, under ~200 watts, the ONLY charge controllers I would use are Morningstar Sunstar/Prostar units, which do 3/4 stage charging and temperature compensation, and will actually get your battery to very nearly 100% in one day, vs. the single stage controllers that usually only charge to 80% unless they sit unused for DAYS. I can't even find specs on that Renogy charge controller, other than a general description of it being PWM, which is good, but whats the charge voltage??
A $100 used 120W Kyocera will put out more amperage than a new 100W panel based on the two I have.
So... Used Kyocera 120W panel: $100 (ebay)
Sunstar SS-10 :$50 (ebay)
Some 12ga Zip wire to wire it up w/o significant voltage drop: $10 (ebay)
Z-brackets for mounting the panel: $6 (ebay)
Total: $165 and you get a very good panel, a GREAT charge controller that will let you get the most from your batteries, and decent size wire that encourages you to wire it with the shortest length possible, rather than just looping what they give you and losing voltage (and power) through wire resistance. The Kyocera panel will not be set up to use MC4 connecters, it'll have a junction box that requires ring terminals, just like the charge controller.
Just my HO.
Chris
<edit> I just found specs for the Renogy charge controller. It does charge at 14.4V, but only for 30 minutes, then it drops to 13.6. That's pretty dumb for a solar setup. You want it to charge at 14.4+ for as long as it takes to get the battery to 90-95%. After that, it's ok to drop the voltage and finish it off, but if you used the battery down to 50%, you have more chance of getting it charged fully at the higher voltage. There's only about 5 hours of good sun in a day, so the charge voltage is going to drop anyway as the sun goes down. Realistically, if it charged at 14.4 until you were at 100% that would be ideal, so long as it recognized a "full" battery and went to float voltage if no charge was necessary. 30 minutes at proper charge voltage = why bother!
A $100 used 120W Kyocera will put out more amperage than a new 100W panel based on the two I have.
So... Used Kyocera 120W panel: $100 (ebay)
Sunstar SS-10 :$50 (ebay)
Some 12ga Zip wire to wire it up w/o significant voltage drop: $10 (ebay)
Z-brackets for mounting the panel: $6 (ebay)
Total: $165 and you get a very good panel, a GREAT charge controller that will let you get the most from your batteries, and decent size wire that encourages you to wire it with the shortest length possible, rather than just looping what they give you and losing voltage (and power) through wire resistance. The Kyocera panel will not be set up to use MC4 connecters, it'll have a junction box that requires ring terminals, just like the charge controller.
Just my HO.
Chris
<edit> I just found specs for the Renogy charge controller. It does charge at 14.4V, but only for 30 minutes, then it drops to 13.6. That's pretty dumb for a solar setup. You want it to charge at 14.4+ for as long as it takes to get the battery to 90-95%. After that, it's ok to drop the voltage and finish it off, but if you used the battery down to 50%, you have more chance of getting it charged fully at the higher voltage. There's only about 5 hours of good sun in a day, so the charge voltage is going to drop anyway as the sun goes down. Realistically, if it charged at 14.4 until you were at 100% that would be ideal, so long as it recognized a "full" battery and went to float voltage if no charge was necessary. 30 minutes at proper charge voltage = why bother!
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Rockhounder
Explorer
We have managed to achieve the holy grail of solar camping, that is totally off grid electrical power, to power our 28 foot travel trailer..... after many tries and re-do's.
We put 6 Interstate GC2-XHD 6V Deep Cycle batteries over the axles (to reduce frame stress). To charge the batteries we use 300 watts of solar panels on the roof (purchased from Bills Solar in Quartzsire, az). This has 6 gauge wire with a 12 foot run, through the side roof, to a Sunco charge controller, which then goes to the battery bank. We have a short run of automotive battery connector wire to a Harbor freight 5000w/10,000w invertor. (currently you can get one there on sale for $350)
The battery bank provides 12v power to the 12v systems directly, like the power for the full sized (home kitchen size) dual propane/electric fridge, as well as the mini ducted floorfurnace (propane, with 12/115v power selector for blower). We got rid of the original coleman A/C unit on roof (trailer is a 1968 Boles Aero) which weighed a Ton, and made a new ducting to fit a small wal mart special window ac unit. We researched and bought the smallest unit made easy to find, 5500btu, with the lowest load.
In the sunny parts of the day, we can get up to 12 amps of charging, and can run the 115v AC from about 10am straight until about an hour before sundown, before we shut it off to have power left for all the other uses during the night. It keeps the front bedroom and kitchen area very comfortable, even in 100 degree weather.
We are firm believers in being able to enjoy the beautiful quiet and solitude of the desert and High Sierras, and hate hearing others around with generators..... Quartzsite is the worst with all those folks with their Road-Castles RV's and huge 5th wheels, every single one running generators... sounds like you are at the ocean, or near Niagarafalls all night long....yeech.... not to mention having to use gas. We are able, if we don't have to refill the propane tanks due to furnace, or cooking, (just for the fridge) to last over 2 months uninterrupted power, before we need to get more propane for the fridge. Normally, during the winter months in the High Sierras, we last about 3 weeks on our two propane tanks. In the summer.... we don't worry about having to be near any store for gas or propane.
We got it in sad shape, totally tore out the guts, and rebuilt it inside out.
We put 6 Interstate GC2-XHD 6V Deep Cycle batteries over the axles (to reduce frame stress). To charge the batteries we use 300 watts of solar panels on the roof (purchased from Bills Solar in Quartzsire, az). This has 6 gauge wire with a 12 foot run, through the side roof, to a Sunco charge controller, which then goes to the battery bank. We have a short run of automotive battery connector wire to a Harbor freight 5000w/10,000w invertor. (currently you can get one there on sale for $350)
The battery bank provides 12v power to the 12v systems directly, like the power for the full sized (home kitchen size) dual propane/electric fridge, as well as the mini ducted floorfurnace (propane, with 12/115v power selector for blower). We got rid of the original coleman A/C unit on roof (trailer is a 1968 Boles Aero) which weighed a Ton, and made a new ducting to fit a small wal mart special window ac unit. We researched and bought the smallest unit made easy to find, 5500btu, with the lowest load.
In the sunny parts of the day, we can get up to 12 amps of charging, and can run the 115v AC from about 10am straight until about an hour before sundown, before we shut it off to have power left for all the other uses during the night. It keeps the front bedroom and kitchen area very comfortable, even in 100 degree weather.
We are firm believers in being able to enjoy the beautiful quiet and solitude of the desert and High Sierras, and hate hearing others around with generators..... Quartzsite is the worst with all those folks with their Road-Castles RV's and huge 5th wheels, every single one running generators... sounds like you are at the ocean, or near Niagarafalls all night long....yeech.... not to mention having to use gas. We are able, if we don't have to refill the propane tanks due to furnace, or cooking, (just for the fridge) to last over 2 months uninterrupted power, before we need to get more propane for the fridge. Normally, during the winter months in the High Sierras, we last about 3 weeks on our two propane tanks. In the summer.... we don't worry about having to be near any store for gas or propane.
We got it in sad shape, totally tore out the guts, and rebuilt it inside out.
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IdaSHO
IDACAMPER
Dont bother with a kit.
If you are willing to poney up for a MPPT controller,
do what I did and go for 36v panels.
I just took delivery of a pair of these (this exact ebay add).
Smoking deal when you factor in FREE shipping.
And I dont believe them when they say refurb.
They look BRAND NEW in brand new packing, in brand new boxes, etc.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301380010373?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
WagoneerSX4
Adventurer
I run twin 40w panels and a single deep cycle that I also use for a 55lb trolling motor on my boat. With it running my 12v cooler and some small flood LED's on my trailer it easily lasts the weekend, but not a day more than that. That's only charging it a couple hrs a day though as I usually have my deep cycle out on the boat fishing during the day. And when I'm charging it I also have an inverter hooked charging at least one mobile device. So during that time I doubt it's charging, probably just maintaining whatever level it was at. If I wanted the setup to last more than a weekend I would definitely need to invest in a second deep cycle and alternate them (which I'm doing this spring).
Anytime that you think you're charging power might not be enough to keep up with the draw you want just get a 2nd battery as a backup and alternate them to keep them topped up.
I have actually wondered about a tiny wind turbine unit on my trailer. Living in Ontario around the great lakes we have almost constant wind here and not very many quality solar hours. All the research I've done though you'd need a pretty elaborate turbine setup to get even any gains from it though. Would be fun just to see if you could though.
Anytime that you think you're charging power might not be enough to keep up with the draw you want just get a 2nd battery as a backup and alternate them to keep them topped up.
I have actually wondered about a tiny wind turbine unit on my trailer. Living in Ontario around the great lakes we have almost constant wind here and not very many quality solar hours. All the research I've done though you'd need a pretty elaborate turbine setup to get even any gains from it though. Would be fun just to see if you could though.
1stDeuce, are you referring to one of the comments on the amazon page:
if that's the case it sounds like the controller dropped into the maintenance mode after recharging his tiny battery in half an hour, which is the behavior you suggest.
In any case, I appreciate your feedback. I know little about these system, but the reviews seem to be generally positive on the amazon product. My goal is to have a small top up for my tent trailer dual battery setup, so I'm trying to balance the costs vs benefits for sure.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
The controller won't see 14.4v on the charging loop until the battery has reached 14.4v. This would appear to mean that the battery is full. It's not. It will be at a 14.4v "surface charge" which will be around 80% full.
The reason for a charger or charge controller to have an "absorb stage" is to hold an elevated voltage for as long as it takes to get the electrolyte "fully absorbed". That takes hours.
So a normal "3-stage" charge would be to take the battery up to say 14.4v (it's now at 80% charged) - that's bulk stage, then drop the voltage to say 14.2v and hold until the amps flowing drops to nothing (it's now fully charged) - that's absorb stage, then drop down to say 13.6v to maintain the battery in a fully charged state - that's float stage. (I say, "say 14.4v" or whatever because these voltage set points are not set in stone - slightly higher or lower voltages will still work to get the job done.)
A "2-stage" charger or charge controller just does bulk stage, and then drops to float, omitting the absorb stage. It takes hours to get a battery from 80% to 100% in absorb stage. In a float stage the battery can reach 100% - but it would take days. That's IF it ever does get to 100% - depending on the age and sulfation of the battery, it might never get to 100% charged being held at float voltage.
I haven't researched the Renogy controller, but just from what I'm reading in this thread, it looks to me like a 2-stage - bulk to 14.4v then drop to float.
That "30 minutes" thing seems to be a bit of a red herring. If it raises the battery to 14.4v then it has a done a bulk stage. That's not something that can be done in 30 minutes if the battery is down much at all, but I can see it on a small battery. So I would guess that it takes the battery up to 14.4v - a proper bulk stage taking however long it takes - and then drops to float. That would be a standard 2-stage.
The reason for a charger or charge controller to have an "absorb stage" is to hold an elevated voltage for as long as it takes to get the electrolyte "fully absorbed". That takes hours.
So a normal "3-stage" charge would be to take the battery up to say 14.4v (it's now at 80% charged) - that's bulk stage, then drop the voltage to say 14.2v and hold until the amps flowing drops to nothing (it's now fully charged) - that's absorb stage, then drop down to say 13.6v to maintain the battery in a fully charged state - that's float stage. (I say, "say 14.4v" or whatever because these voltage set points are not set in stone - slightly higher or lower voltages will still work to get the job done.)
A "2-stage" charger or charge controller just does bulk stage, and then drops to float, omitting the absorb stage. It takes hours to get a battery from 80% to 100% in absorb stage. In a float stage the battery can reach 100% - but it would take days. That's IF it ever does get to 100% - depending on the age and sulfation of the battery, it might never get to 100% charged being held at float voltage.
I haven't researched the Renogy controller, but just from what I'm reading in this thread, it looks to me like a 2-stage - bulk to 14.4v then drop to float.
That "30 minutes" thing seems to be a bit of a red herring. If it raises the battery to 14.4v then it has a done a bulk stage. That's not something that can be done in 30 minutes if the battery is down much at all, but I can see it on a small battery. So I would guess that it takes the battery up to 14.4v - a proper bulk stage taking however long it takes - and then drops to float. That would be a standard 2-stage.
WhileInTheWild
Observer
Here are the specs on the controller Renogy includes in their 100W solar suitcase - http://renogy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/PWM30LCD-Viewstar.pdf (warning PDF)
They refer to it as a 4-stage, which is marketing speak for 3-stage plus a night mode.
They refer to it as a 4-stage, which is marketing speak for 3-stage plus a night mode.