Roof rack mounted antennas

BettysNephew

New member
I will be taking my Tech Exam in March and have intentions of installing an amateur mobile (probably VHF/UHF) and a CB to cover the frequencies I want to access. I will be using separate antennas for the two radios. I have a 2015 4Runner Trail that has the factory roof rails. Due to garage door clearance issues fold down antennas would be my choice. I am thinking about attaching the antenna mounts to the inside of the slotted bars that run parallel to the edges of the roof. Since the antennas would be raised slightly above the actual roof level it seems I should use 5/8 wavelength masts. Please comment regarding my choices and supply any further suggestions about my plans. Suggestions regarding antenna brands/selection will be appreciated. Thanks.
 
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Frdmskr

Adventurer
Welcome to the hobby! There are lots of threads on here and T4r.org about mounting antennas that should help.

I'd avoid that since you cannot ground the antenna properly. If you are still trying to assess how to set things up consider a lip mount on either your tailgate or the engine hood. Then run the wires to the rig that way. (Should be a grommet or two in the engine bay where wire harnesses come through. You will want to run the power cable for the radio to the battery this way as well.)

If you are not going to use the roof for anything in the future, drill the hole and install an NMO.
 

BettysNephew

New member
Looked at the lip mounts but prefer not to go that way as the primary component of roads in winter around here is salt or worse yet that liquid crud they put down before snow or ice storms. I think that stuff would eat up titanium. Any type of mount that would break the paint on steel barrier will lead to a panel rusting out in very short order. If all else fails I will use mag mounts but would like to have a more permanent mount if I can.
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
I'm not familiar with the roof rack on the vehicle you mention, but if it's rails are metal, and they are firmly (electrically) secure at both ends with the vehicle roof, I don't see an issue with mounting antennas there.

Note that any mobile CB whip you buy will be functionally an electrical 1/4-wave, regardless of any claims on the packaging. This won't be an issue. 5/8-wave mobile 2M whips are available though, they are about 4 feet tall (a 1/4-wave 2M whip should be fine as well, the rack rail running underneath the antenna should be enough counterpoise for it to work properly). Be aware that due to it being a greater percentage of a wavelength on 2M, adding a fold-over mount might create an SWR issue unless you trim the antenna whip down a bit (check it before you do anything though). A fold-over on the CB ant should be OK though.

I like Larsen antennas for VHF... For CB, I've sworn for years by the Francis CB-26 5.5' whips. Nothing other than a 102" long steel whip has outperformed the 5.5' Francis in numerous radio tests I've done in the past.

Hope that helps
 

Robert Bills

Explorer
. . . I'm not familiar with the roof rack on the vehicle you mention, but if it's rails are metal, and they are firmly (electrically) secure at both ends with the vehicle roof, I don't see an issue with mounting antennas there. . . .

Please school me. Why do the rails need to be electrically secure at both ends of the vehicle roof?

I currently have antennas mounted to tabs on a steel drop in basket that sits on top of the factory roof rack rails of my Nissan Xterra (3' Firestik for CB at the left rear corner; Larsen NMO 2/70 SH at the right rear corner). Since the rack rails are not very well grounded to the vehicle, I grounded the drop in basket to the vehicle by running short lengths of 1/2" copper strap from near the antenna tabs at the left and right rear corners of the drop in basket to the vehicle body under the rear hatch.

Should I have also run copper strap from the front of the drop in basket to the vehicle body? Why would that result in an improvement in either reception or transmission on CB and 2m/70cm?

.
 
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Mashurst

Adventurer
For 2m the basket by it's self should be plenty of ground plane. For CB you will need more "area" than the rack and tying it to the rest of the vehicle will give that to you. The more places you tie in the better but the law of diminishing returns applies. One at each corner should do. On the other hand, most people's CBs are very poorly set up making how well yours is kind of a moot point. If you are just using it for trail runs just chuck it up there and see how ya go.
 

Robert Bills

Explorer
4x4junkie said:
. . . I'm not familiar with the roof rack on the vehicle you mention, but if it's rails are metal, and they are firmly (electrically) secure at both ends with the vehicle roof, I don't see an issue with mounting antennas there. . . .


. . . The more places you tie in [to the vehicle body] the better but the law of diminishing returns applies. One at each corner should do. . . .

I have two corners of the basket assembly grounded to the vehicle body with 1/2" copper strap. I'm still unclear why "both ends" of a rack/basket need to be "electrically secure" or why the basket should be grounded at each corner vs. the two corners my ground straps are attached to now. How would attaching additional ground points to the rack/basket improve the ground plane?
 

Mashurst

Adventurer
Well, first off, I will say, I'm just a ham not an ee, so take this for what it is. Think of it this way. It is called a ground plane. Like a stick poking up out of a pond you get a reflection that is the opposing image of the stick. The lower the frequency the bigger the plane needs to be to give you a full image of the other side. For 2m You only need 10 or 15 inches but for 28mHz you need a bigger pond, if you will, to reflect it. It's not about electrical conductivity like in a DC circuit. It's about making it look like a plane from the feed point. So if the roof rack has a high impedance connection to the roof, the roof does not act as part of the plane. That's ok for 2m cause the rack is big enough to reflect the image. If you tie one corner of the rack to the roof you would get some reflection from that direction but most of the image is still only reflected by the rack in the other directions. It will work, but it will be compromised. Add another connection and it will give you a more complete reflected image. Two more after that and it would start to look like a full reflection. So think of it not as an electrical connection but as a reflector of you antennas radiated signal. Ideally you want it in all directions. Four is just my suggestion for a minimal approximation for infinity. It's not a magic number. Two would be kind of a compromise. Now that said, all this is just theory. Try it. Two may work just fine for what you need. As I said very few CB are set up to work well but they are still useful for vehicle to vehicle communication within a trail group. I have my HF antenna mounted to the front of the hood on my jeep. I have no doubt it would work better were it mounted in the center of my roof. Even with copper tape running from the feed point out under the hood and tying into the body it is a compromise. In the 7mHz range it gets even worse as even if you do get the entire vehicle acting as part of your ground plane, it still is not big enough to reflect the entire image and you begin to require a capacitive connection to the ground under the vehicle to get the rest of the signal. At that point the conductivity of the soil becomes an issue. I'm kind of rambling now but I hope that helps a bit.
 
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Frdmskr

Adventurer
There is a product called coax seal. It is non-conductive and a goopy rubbery compound you cake on where the mount pinches and where coax connections are found. That hardens to a hard substance between a rock and a hockey puck.
 

Frdmskr

Adventurer
While I am not entirely sure it matters at VHF based on your basket layout, the loose side can wriggle and leave a gap where high voltage can arc. If you are running mega power at 2m might be an issue. If you are running 100w on HF it would definitely be an issue. Not sure you usual 50w radio will complain so much with grounds in one spot. In fact that basket layout is one I am curious about. Did you weld the tabs on or just mechanically connect them?
 

BettysNephew

New member
I got the VOM out and checked the ground of the rail to the body and it reads 0 ohms. So unless there is an impedance problem through the mounting brackets or bolts I think the rails may be a viable mounting point. Not too sure regarding the radiation pattern with the antenna mounted to one side of the roof but I have seen worse positioning on other vehicles. At the very least it would be above the roof.
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
Please school me. Why do the rails need to be electrically secure at both ends of the vehicle roof?

I currently have antennas mounted to tabs on a steel drop in basket that sits on top of the factory roof rack rails of my Nissan Xterra (3' Firestik for CB at the left rear corner; Larsen NMO 2/70 SH at the right rear corner). Since the rack rails are not very well grounded to the vehicle, I grounded the drop in basket to the vehicle by running short lengths of 1/2" copper strap from near the antenna tabs at the left and right rear corners of the drop in basket to the vehicle body under the rear hatch.

Should I have also run copper strap from the front of the drop in basket to the vehicle body? Why would that result in an improvement in either reception or transmission on CB and 2m/70cm?

.

Yeah Mashurst nailed it well. The rack, rail, whatever the antenna is mounted to should be electrically one with the vehicle roof so that the roof also becomes part of the antenna's ground plane or counterpoise, giving you a more uniform radiation pattern and lower SWR.



And certainly it does pay to put a bit of quality into your radio setup regardless of what others are running, as it won't just transmit out better, it'll also help you pull in the weak signals from those who have inferior setups better (this is especially true of CB setups). I know this because very often I can still hear the weaker rigs in a group fine when others (even closer in) are starting to have trouble.


I got the VOM out and checked the ground of the rail to the body and it reads 0 ohms. So unless there is an impedance problem through the mounting brackets or bolts I think the rails may be a viable mounting point. Not too sure regarding the radiation pattern with the antenna mounted to one side of the roof but I have seen worse positioning on other vehicles. At the very least it would be above the roof.

Sounds like you're good to go.
The antennas being centered is secondary to them being up high and in the clear. You should be fine.
 

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