Surly Ogre, Salsa Fargo... Input requested

just eric

just eric

Adventurer
I'm a recovering roadie who needs a new ride. I'm 6' 240lbs and riding my road bike or San Jose fixie just isn't comfortable anymore. I want to get back on the road and enjoy this amazing weather (sorry to my East coast friends) we're having. I think I've decided on a Fargo or Ogre but there aren't any LBS that carry both and those that carry one or the other are still a good drive away. As a result, I'm doing my homework before test riding either...

Background - I live in the Seattle area and will be using the new bike for urban rides, rural rides on dirt (FS roads, not single track) and gravel roads, and most importantly pulling my 2yo in her chariot. I like the idea of bikepacking although the reality is that those trips will be far and few between. I realize I will likely never use all of the available mounts but dont see a downside to having the options should I ever need them. If weight were an issue I could drop more lbs than I could save by purchasing a lighter bike... I've read up on the differences between the two but am not sure why I should favor one over the other. I will test ride them as soon as I can but in the mean time I thought I'd check with the experts we have in house. I realize I spend too much time on 1st world problems but was curious what those who have been here before think. Salsa vs Surly?

Thanks.
 
Some Dude

Some Dude

Adventurer
Both are excellent choices, but you'll pay more for the Salsa. I'd say get the Ogre because it's cheaper, the bang-for-your-buck factor is super high, and it leaves you more money for accessories. In the end, you'll have to ride them both if you really want to compare. Easier than that would be to buy the first one you ride because you'll probably love it, neither is a bad choice.
 
p nut

p nut

butter
Are you sure that a Surly Straggler or Salsa Vaya are better candidates for your uses? What exactly don't you like about your San Jose?

Just as a reference point, one of my bikes is a Rawland Stag, which has 650bx42 tires for the exact type of rides you listed: gravel, asphalt, kid trailer duty. Even singletrack every now and then. I also have mountain bikes, which the Ogre and Fargo essentially are, but unless I'm riding strictly on rough trails or dirt, they're pretty slow everywhere else.

But if you must choose between the two, I'd say go with an Ogre. I like the Jones bar, microshift shifters (love mine), and fatter tire clearance. Minor points, though.
 
just eric

just eric

Adventurer
p nut said:
Are you sure that a Surly Straggler or Salsa Vaya are better candidates for your uses? What exactly don't you like about your San Jose.
Click to expand...

Short answer is no, I'm not sure.

I really enjoyed the simplicity of my San Jose. It was a breath of fresh air from my "race bike" and something I quite enjoyed riding on the flats. The rider position has just gotten too uncomfortable now that I'm fat and I need gears to climb all of these hills. My mind still thinks I can do the things I used to but my mind is wrong.

I have considered the Vaya/Straggler and even a disc trucker but was leaning towards the Ogre/Fargo because of my belief that the MTB geometry would be more comfortable at this point in my life. I'd love to ride them all but it has been near impossible finding any of them within 100 miles of my house let alone in my size. I'm preparing for a 3hr trip down to Portland to hopefully get some seat time but haven't gotten there yet. For such a "progressive" bike friendly city you'd think Seattle would have a better selection of non-race bikes. You'd be wrong.
 
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Some Dude

Some Dude

Adventurer
I wasn't going to say it before because it wasn't relevant, but ride a Trucker before you make a final call if you're even considering one. I have one, in addition to a pile of other bikes including a Salsa, and it is by FAR my favorite bike. Riding it is pure bliss. Riding position is pretty comfortable with the big drops that come stock, but an aftermarket butterfly or mustache bar could make it even more upright if that's what you're after.
 
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Sisyphus

Sisyphus

Adventurer
I tested both the Fargo and Orge and liked them almost equally before eventually going with a Troll because I found a good deal on a used frame set.

You really can't go wrong with either in my opinion, but if you have the money to spend, the Fargo Ti has no competition from Surly on that end.
 
M

monkeyrider

Observer
I've got a first generation Fargo. It's a great bike. What this really comes down to is do you want drop bars or a flat bar. The rider position on the fargo is pretty unique. the drops are typically the most comfortable position. I wouldn't worry about frame strength, both can handle a rider your size. Surly is offering $150 any bike right now.

http://surlybikes.com/blog/post/surly_superfan_coupon
 
just eric

just eric

Adventurer
Ok so I still can't find an Ogre or Fargo in my size to demo. Science this could be my first on road MTB I'm hoping someone could give me an idea how much more drag they would have over say a long haul trucker. I don't want to rip around at highway speeds but would it be reasonable to expect that I could tool around the county side at say 14mph over the flats and be comfortable for 20 - 30 miles. I realize a lot will depend on fit and my fitness level but I'm asking in a general sense.

Thanks for the input guys.
 
Christophe Noel

Christophe Noel

Expedition Leader
Eric, there's no way to really apply any specific digits to your question. Needless to say, a bike with 2.2 mountain bike tires will invariably be slower than a bike with 28c tires, but that also depends on the terrain. The rougher the terrain, the better the advantage for the bigger tire.
 
Co-opski

Co-opski

Expedition Leader
Christophe Noel said:
Eric, there's no way to really apply any specific digits to your question. Needless to say, a bike with 2.2 mountain bike tires will invariably be slower than a bike with 28c tires, but that also depends on the terrain. The rougher the terrain, the better the advantage for the bigger tire.
Click to expand...

One thing with the Orge/Fargo is you can build a wheel for a 28c tire and go back to a 2.2 if you want more dirt. Your ExPo Fargo build was a good look at what that bike can transform into.
http://expeditionportal.com/salsa-fargo-adventure-by-bike/
Pictures of Orges/fargos set up with skinny 700 tires are all over google. No way to stuff a 29 2.2 in a LHT. Heck I've seen people in Anchorage build up road 700c wheels for their Fatbacks.
 
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C

calicamper

Expedition Leader
I dumped the trailer for a seat on the back rack then balanced the bike out with the mandatory kid crap hauling capacity front panniers and rack bags. I found the longer wheel base length the better which case my old junked and mothballed HS MT bike GT frame was a good fit. Dumped some money into a new wheel set and some new running gear and its been the family pack mule on several camping trips and does the Weekend Farmers Market run every weekend all year around. I even picked up a stroller drink holder and found a spot to hang it on the handle bar for my Farmers Market coffee. As I said its the Family Mule. I have another year or two before my youngest is out of the rear seat. Tahoe rental trips we would pack the bike up and leave the rental and be gone all day with lunch and beach gear all packed on my bike, best guess packed bike with kid was 130lbs not counting me. As long as the panniers are on the front it is balanced very well and rides great. I had skinny tires which weren't happy stopping that weight so I went to a mid width road tread tire which has worked great plenty of grip for hard stops and enough durability to do light trail work yes even loaded with the kid. My Son loves riding single track in the back seat. LOL I'd be surprised if the frame survives another two years I keep waiting for a crack to surface some place but so far its holding up. Those old GT MT frames are tanks. Nothing fancy but I like the geometry of the frame and its proven to be the ultimate family mule so far after several years of abuse.

The Xtra cycle would be my second choice I could haul the kids small bikes on one of those over to the park or school and the added wheel base length would offer a faster more stable platform for the weight and gear + kid etc.

Trailers suck... We sold ours pronto and the beater a family member gave us gets used to haul the kids little bikes over to the school for practice bike riding sessions thats it. My daughter rides a trailer bike with mom and fingers crossed!!! Is riding her bike by end of this summer.

I finally got back on my real MT bike a few weeks ago after pretty much a few years of nothing but family truckster hauling kids every week and I nearly fell off the bike because it was so damn light and twitchy ha ha. Won't ride my road bike till the kids are HS or almost done with HS too many texting drivers around here hitting cyclists I wan't to be around for my kids. MT biking on single track bring it on hard to get hit by a VW while riding single track ;-)
 
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C

calicamper

Expedition Leader
just eric said:
Ok so I still can't find an Ogre or Fargo in my size to demo. Science this could be my first on road MTB I'm hoping someone could give me an idea how much more drag they would have over say a long haul trucker. I don't want to rip around at highway speeds but would it be reasonable to expect that I could tool around the county side at say 14mph over the flats and be comfortable for 20 - 30 miles. I realize a lot will depend on fit and my fitness level but I'm asking in a general sense.

Thanks for the input guys.
Click to expand...

Frame length plays in to cruising speeds aka wheel base length. The commuter bikes vs comfort bikes the big difference is wheel base length the longer the frame the easier it is to hold higher cruise speeds etc. The down hill oriented MT bike frames of the early years were longer frames longer wheel base lengths that made them good for down hill more stable at speed etc but not so good for technical rocky trail work for obvious reasons. The new commuter bikes probably share more in common with the early down hill MT bikes regarding rigid forks and longer frame length for the faster cruising speeds yet simplicity and rack fittings for proper rack options etc.
 
Christophe Noel

Christophe Noel

Expedition Leader
calicamper said:
Frame length plays in to cruising speeds aka wheel base length. The commuter bikes vs comfort bikes the big difference is wheel base length the longer the frame the easier it is to hold higher cruise speeds etc.
Click to expand...
This is an incorrect statement. This coming from a frame builder with more than 20 years at the jig.

Wheelbase is indeed very important, but it plays no part in speed. Speed is the product of watts vs. drag. Drag can be applied via aerodynamic forces which are compounded with speed, or by gravity (climbs) which is multiplied by weight. The bigger you are, the more frontal area you present, the greater the drag as speed multiplies. The heavier you are, the more resistance is opposed and the slower you go. This too is compounded by speed but climbing speeds are usually minimal.

Where wheelbase matters is with regard to handling and stability. The shorter the WB the more nimble a bike is. The inverse is obvious.

But...lets talk bikes.

The Fargo is one of my favorite platforms of all time. Ride it on singletrack, load it with a week's worth of gear, tackle a gravel or paved road. It is one sweet mamma jamma.

Here's mine. The steel is just as cool. http://expeditionportal.com/long-term-wrap-up-salsa-fargo-ti/
 
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