School me on Compact CB Radios

[Sandstone]

Late to the party here, but I run a Midland 75-822 and a 2' Firestik on a door jam mount halfway up the lift gate on the passenger side. It does pretty well for what it is.
I used to use a magnetic mount in the middle of the vehicle but it kept hitting tree branches and finally got knocked totally off the roof.

The firestik doesn't hit as much, and does just as good or better than the magnetic mount since it extends past the roof line, but just not as high.

And I agree about getting a ham radio, I think its a good idea. Much easier to get a license now that the Morse code requirement has changed. More distance and fewer trash talking jerks with linear amps that drown you and your whole group out from half way across the state.

 

[4x4junkie]

Conversely, a handheld ham transceiver with a little rubber-duck antenna easily has 10 times the range of the best legal Jeep-mounted CB setup I've ever personally seen.

Seems you purposely left out that that is possible only when aided by a mountaintop repeater. (certainly you weren't thinking a handheld transceiver with a little rubber ducky antenna will reliably talk 100 miles unassisted on simplex... ?) Unless your group is so spread out as to be completely on two different sides of a mountain range, or on two different continents, or the moon like you say (yeah right), the ~10 mile range of a CB should be quite adequate.
And a decent (properly installed) CB will hear anyone using a low quality setup better as well. So whatever others are using in no way removes the benefits of having a proper setup yourself.

What I don't understand is why no one ever mentions MURS when going around dogging on CBs... MURS for the most part is the same thing as 2M ham (at least in regard to providing trail comms) minus the hilltop repeaters (which again you don't need just to talk among your group), but also minus the license exam requirement that so many people can't (or choose not to) deal with. It's hardly any more difficult or costly for one to get set up on MURS than it is for regular CB (legally and/or otherwise).

More distance and fewer trash talking jerks with linear amps that drown you and your whole group out from half way across the state.

This is a side-effect of the 27MHz frequency band CB uses that indeed can be annoying at times (the band's ability to readily propagate signals during the day encourages this type of activity). Just another reason to have a good setup with a decent antenna, it makes you a lot harder to be drowned out by them. Noise from this so-called "skip" also seems much less prevalent on channels 31-35 than down in the lower end of the band, and is where I primarily operate (but again, MURS like ham does away with these folk entirely).

 

[RubiconGeoff]

Seems you purposely left out that that is possible only when aided by a mountaintop repeater. (certainly you weren't thinking a handheld transceiver with a little rubber ducky antenna will reliably talk 100 miles unassisted on simplex... ?) Unless your group is so spread out as to be completely on two different sides of a mountain range, or on two different continents, or the moon like you say (yeah right), the ~10 mile range of a CB should be quite adequate.

I didn't purposely leave repeaters out; I figured anyone who's familiar with ham radios will be familiar with repeaters, since their use is nearly universal (around here at least). The majority of the trails I regularly run are covered by the Rubicon's 805 repeater. I don't have a mobile transceiver because my little Yaesu HT with 5 watts has never given me any grief hitting the repeaters. Obviously, different regions have different ham radio networks, but I've never been in a group of Jeeps that's been able to reliably communicate with more than a mile between vehicles, especially since we're always in mountainous terrain. I carry the ARRL repeater directory pocketbook in my center console so when I'm out of my regular region I can always find a repeater.

A group of CB enthusiasts in the flatlands may find CBs to be adequate, but around here they're a joke no matter how fine-tuned the radios and antennas are.

 

[Hilldweller]

Repeaters rock.
I've been chatting daily with Bob (Tennmogger) from my lab. I'm in Alpharetta, GA and he's in Greenback, TN. That's a 4 hour drive.
Repeaters are the only way to do reliable coms in the mountains.

CBs and simplex are fine for a group ride. But when you've got a big boondoggle going and groups scattered around a bit, HAM & repeaters can literally save your life.

 

[4x4junkie]

A group of CB enthusiasts in the flatlands may find CBs to be adequate, but around here they're a joke no matter how fine-tuned the radios and antennas are.

Well perhaps you either are expecting too much of them, or your setup infact was NOT tuned very well (or possibly you have just never experienced talking with someone who also had a decent setup).

I have been through a great many trails in the Sierras mountains myself (yep, Rubicon too). Never have found range to be such a big issue (even talked from just a few miles up Icehouse Rd from hwy 50 to guys who were up past Rubicon's granite slabs).
To each his own...

This has been a very helpful discussion. Thank you.

As of now, I am set on a Uniden PRO520XL
5.5' Francis CB-26 Hot Rod whips

and a magnetic whip antenna on the roof of my cab (Access cab) or a permanent mount on my fiberglass cap. As I plan to only use this radio on extended roadtrips and mostly in the desert, I plan to get one in a length of 60''-100'', so a removable antenna is preferred.

I just noticed your post... Excellent choices.
I need to warn you though, a fiberglass cap is NOT a good place to mount an antenna, as it provides no ground plane as a counterpoise for the antenna. I would suggest sticking with a roof mount (if you go magnetic mount, use something like this. It'll hold just about any antenna you want to put on it, from the Francis to even a 102" steel whip). I also suggest a spring for it as well so when you go under trees, Taco Bell drive-thrus, etc., it'll allow the antenna to flex back without damaging it (as it's very unlikely that mag mount will lift up or fall off before the antenna itself gets broken). This Firestik SS3H spring is fine for the Francis, however you'll need something beefier for a 102" whip.

 

[Hilldweller]

He could also use a groundplane kit (if you can still find them). I used one on a motorcycle with a 3' Firefly and a spring and it made a huge improvement in the power field of the antenna.
It was a base with 3 radial arms. SWR was in the 1.5:1 area with it and the spring.

 

[underdrive]

I need to warn you though, a fiberglass cap is NOT a good place to mount an antenna, as it provides no ground plane as a counterpoise for the antenna.

What if the mount is grounded to the vehicle? On one of our trucks we have backup flood lights mounted to the top of the fiberglass cap, they are grounded to the aluminum frame for the rear hatch which in turn is connected to the cap's aluminum bottom rails that are directly bolted to the truck's bed - can the same ground path be utilized for a CB mount as well? If that is not enough, would adding a dedicated ground, say via 8-gauge stereo amp cable, be helpful?

Also, and this may sound absolutely retarded, but can the same type of antenna (in particular a 5ft steel whip) be used for both CB and HAM? For example one on the left side of the cap for CB, and another identical one on the right side for HAM?

 

[1911]

What if the mount is grounded to the vehicle? On one of our trucks we have backup flood lights mounted to the top of the fiberglass cap, they are grounded to the aluminum frame for the rear hatch which in turn is connected to the cap's aluminum bottom rails that are directly bolted to the truck's bed - can the same ground path be utilized for a CB mount as well? If that is not enough, would adding a dedicated ground, say via 8-gauge stereo amp cable, be helpful?

You are confusing electrical grounding (a return path for the flow of current) with the ground plane that most antennas (except 1/2-wave) need to properly function. Two completely different things.

Also, and this may sound absolutely retarded, but can the same type of antenna (in particular a 5ft steel whip) be used for both CB and HAM? For example one on the left side of the cap for CB, and another identical one on the right side for HAM?

No (with the possible exception of cb and 10 meters ham). The antenna for any radio needs to be the length of one of the resonant multiples of the wavelength for the frequency or frequencies desired. Most folks are using the 2 meters ham band for trail radios, the wavelength of which is, 2 meters. CB wavelength is about 11 meters.

 

[Hilldweller]

This will work on your plastic roof if you really want to mount there:
http://redmancb.com/wilson-firestik-38-x-24-antenna-ground-plane-red-tip/

 

[Inyo_man]

If you would like to mount your antenna on a fiberglass shell I'd look into something like this Firstix product linked below.

http://www.firestik.com/CatalogFrame.htm

They're designed as a "no ground plane" antenna.

Nice choice on the radio…that's the same one two of the trucks that I wheel with run.
Good luck.

 

[4x4junkie]

This will work on your plastic roof if you really want to mount there:
http://redmancb.com/wilson-firestik-38-x-24-antenna-ground-plane-red-tip/

Gimmick.

9" is FAR short of the 102-108" needed for ground radials to establish an effective ground plane for a 27MHz CB antenna (I'm not even sure how that thing would work anyway when it appears to thread into the "hot" side of your antenna's mount rather than to the ground side ).

As 1911 said, an antenna's ground (plane) is very different from just running a piece of ground wire to the frame or some other DC ground point. This is because at radio frequencies, any piece of wire or other thin metal object (rails on the bottom of your cap, hatch, etc.) will instead try to become part of the antenna itself rather than it functioning as a ground point (this due to stray inductance).
The antenna mount itself needs to be mounted directly against a significant mass of metal. The roof works best for this, but so can a body side panel or in some cases a door jamb can work too. Places to avoid are doors themselves, bumpers (too low), tire carriers (for reasons I gave above regarding thin metal objects), any place non-metallic, and any place where less than 65% or so of the antenna's length is up above the vehicle body (the entire antenna should be above the body if it's a base-loaded type).

"No ground plane" antennas also typically don't work as well as regular antennas. It's always better to use a regular antenna when you can.

 

[underdrive]

OK, got it - need big flat metal surface, preferably horizontal. That is kinda what I figured, but I asked about the camper shell mount because most large trucks have their antennas mounted on the mirrors (even if it's just one as opposed to a co-phased pair), which is anything but a large flat metal surface - if they could pull it off, especially those with the fiberglass cabs, mounting the antenna on the fiberglass cap didn't seem that much different.

Next question, why avoid the doors? On a fullsize truck a door is quite the heavy piece of steel, and it's also flat. While not welded to the rest of the cab, it is electrically part of it, so maybe not that much different from a side panel on say a cargo van? Right now the CB antennas on both our trucks are mounted on the driver-side mirror, both achieve SWR in the 1.1-1.2 range. On the passenger side mirror there is another matching antenna, but that one is used for the truck's AM/FM radio, it's not co-phased to the driver-side one or for that matter connected to it in any way. The problem is when any of the trucks receives our slide-in camper, the CB performance naturally goes to heck - the crew-cab fares somewhat better in that as its mirrors are in front of the camper's "bedroom", but on the reg-cab truck the antenna passes right next to the camper's wall (have to tie it at the top with plastic brackets so it doesn't whip around and touch the camper's aluminum skin). The idea is to move both antennas to a better location with the shortest piece of coax possible when trucks are empty, and add another antenna to the camper itself, likely at the top rear corner in order to avoid punching holes in the roof. Then simply disconnect the truck's own antenna and use a union connector to another piece of coax that reaches the camper antenna. You folks see any reason this plan would not work? Like I mentioned the camper is aluminum skinned, even the roof, so it should behave like a good ground plane for the antenna, right?

If anyone wonders how all this relates to trails comm, we actually take our camper down forest service and logging roads and such, pretty much any "camping" spot that can be reached with a common passenger car or a class-A RV we don't want anything to do with. On one occasion we watched the truck in front of us rip his rear camper jack right off after catching it on a piece of fallen tree sticking out from the right side of the trail. Had he had a CB, we could have warned him about it, but apparently the flashing headlights and blowing air horn didn't get his attention on time. The real bummer is we offered to go before him, our truck is a DRW with sliders and camper jacks removed so we could have simply pushed that tree out of the way, but he insisted on getting ahead of us, possibly afraid we're too big and would eventually get stuck and he'd be stuck behind us too...

 

[rayra]

Firestik II is a wrapped non-groundplane antenna that is well reviewed. Costs more than 3x the regular Firestik though (which needs a decent groundplane).

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000X3EOPG...=UTF8&colid=QWZ1BSZYG6VW&coliid=IWIAZ5TVHZ6AW


I'm planning to use them for both CB and HAM on rear bumper mounts on my Suburban. That'll work ok for the tradeoff choices I'm making. I want the mounts flush in my bumper top surface, I'll tune the antennae but they'll usually be dismounted, stored in a drawer. Vehicle is my daily driver and I've got clearance issues involved. I might do a third wired mount on my roof rack, to use on true 'excursions'. But for the limited uses I plan the bumper mount location should work ok.

 

[Hilldweller]

I work in an RF R&D lab, btw....

 

[Hilldweller]

I work in an RF R&D lab, btw....

Edit --- I've had good results with groundplane kits in the past. Granted, I made them from parts from Lafayette Electronics. I don't know the linked product; it was referred by Mr Google.
But I'd gladly test it.
I don't argue. I measure.
http://www.keysight.com/main/home.j...ogies&ef_id=VQryRAAABBX7Ewme:20150320110733:s
I've usually got a Field Fox in the demo pool that I can use. Also a variety of scopes and analyzers.