Lead acid battery inside truck?

[dwh]

Obviously it doesnt have to fill the entire space, it has to fill 4-74%. Do the calcs, see how long it takes to do that for a standard battery.

You're not listening. It only has to fill a small space at the top of the larger space. The flaw in your "scientific" math is you've screwed up the basic assumption of the volume. You keep assuming the entire volume of the living space. That is irrelevant. The gas will rise to the top, and fill the top of the space. That top layer of stratification is all that has to be at a density sufficient to burn.

So stop telling me to do the math, when you've screwed it up from the get go.

And in case you didn't notice, I linked to a thread from here on ExPo from 4 years ago; a thread where I posted a link to the formula to calculate hydrogen generation from battery charging. But apparently you didn't notice that I obviously knew the math that you keep referring to - at least 4 years ago.

But to refresh (from that page I linked to 4 years ago):


Step 1: Calculating Hydrogen Concentration

A typical lead acid motive power battery will develop approximately .01474 cubic feet of hydrogen per cell at standard temperature and pressure.

H = (C x O x G x A) ÷ R
----------------------
100


(H) = Volume of hydrogen produced during recharge.

(C) = Number of cells in battery.

(O) = Percentage of overcharge assumed during a recharge, use 20%.

(G) = Volume of hydrogen produced by one ampere hour of charge. Use .01474 to get cubic feet.

(A) = 6-hour rated capacity of the battery in ampere hours.

(R) = Assume gas is released during the last (4) hours of an 8-hour charge.

Example: Number cells per battery = 24
Ampere size of battery = 450 A.H.

(H) = (24 x 20 x .01474 x 450) ÷ 4
---------------------------------
100


H = 7.9596 cubic feet per battery per hour



So if he's got 2 x 6v batteries, that's going to produce roughly half of that in the example above.

So 4 cubic feet PER HOUR.


Volume of the truck bed with topper (estimated): 8' x 6' x 5' = 240 cu'.

240 cu' * .4 = 96 cu' to reach 4% saturation
96 cu' / 4 cu' per hour = 24 hours to reach a 4% saturation of the entire space.


Which WON'T HAPPEN because the hydrogen will rise and collect at the top of the space.


Let's just assume for the sake of argument that only the top 10% fills with hydrogen. That's going to take 2.4 hours to reach a saturation density of 4% - which assuming your declaration that hydrogen won't burn at a lower density (which I'm not prepared to accept as a given) is enough to ignite.

As far as the video goes, looks like sensationlism to me, not science.

That's because you either don't actually understand how it works, or you just weren't paying attention. The battery - the top of battery - the small space at the top of the battery - was filled with a mix of hydrogen and oxygen. A bit of that was venting. That was enough to be ignited by a spark, and then the burn traveled down into the battery - which you can plainly see in the slow motion replay. The explosion takes place inside of the battery.

And while you might not believe it, exploding lead-acid batteries is not at all an uncommon occurance.

Do you know what the health of that battery is? How old it is, meaning how close it was to shorting, or what the charger was set to, or how charged it already was before they put it on a charger, what the temperature was, etc, etc., and not many cabs have welder or metal grinder sparks being thrown.

All of that doesn't matter.

Age - irrelevant.
Close to shorting - irrelevant.
What the charger was set to - irrelevant.
State of charge before they put it on the charger - irrelevant.
Temperature - irrelevant.

None of it matters - all that matters is that is was venting hydrogen. All open cell flooded lead-acid batteries vent hydrogen when they are being charged.

Thus to make the experiment valid - ALL you have to do is get the bloody thing to vent hydrogen. By whatever means is irrelevant.

And as for sparks, I make sparks whenever I light the stove in my camper. Or light a candle. I could even make some by plugging in something to be charged. You think some guy camping in the back of a truck is never going to make some sparks? 50 years of camping experience - including in the backs of trucks - tells me otherwise.

PLUS - the fact that hydrogen can also be ignited by catalysis and doesn't require a flame or spark, or even heat, to ignite.

Do something stupid like overcharging an already full battery in high temperature, or an old battery (>5-7 years depending on type) and guess what? Something stupid happens, so don't be stupid, thats all.

You don't have to abuse or destroy a battery to make hydrogen - all you have to do is charge it normally.

Hydrogen doesnt "gather" at a high point unless directed via a tube that way. Hydrogen disperses in all directions when not contained or directed to a specific spot.

Wrong. It rises. Propane does the opposite - it sinks.

Another quote from that page I linked 4 years ago:

'Since hydrogen gas rises are there areas in the ceiling where gas may collect in greater concentrations.'

So have ventilation via several different solutions, understand that almost all cabs are not air tight anyway, don't be on charge when sleeping in the battery area, be smart.

They don't have to be air tight - all they need is a high spot for the gas to collect.

 

[dwh]

and connected in parallel with oversized cables and connectors to prevent any charging voltage drop between the two

Two 6v batteries in series will not have a voltage drop between them.

 

[waves]

Dear DWH,

I obviously struck a nerve in your machismo conquest of king of all battery knowledge, but you are very dangerously wrong in everything you have said in your last post, actually EVERYTHING. Assumptions in your calculations make a big difference, as well as the things you assume to be irrelevant in the youtube video you posted. Those items are actually CRITICALLY important to battery charging, gassing, life expectancy, safety, etc.

As one small example, out of many, you use a 450 AH (!) 24 cell battery in your calculation - that would be a 48 Volt battery of a large size, not something relevant to a 12 volt battery discussion - 4x the voltage battery we use and much higher than the typical AH rating of the batteries used in 12 Volt applications. A 48 volt battery is standard telecomm voltage, which is the website application you got this from, I think. Believe it or not, these things make a HUGE diference in gassing rates, heat generation and dissipation, charging voltage and gassing potential, as well the conclusions you come to.

I was trying not to be personal, but it seemed you took it that way anyway, which is my fault I guess in the way I asked to do the calcs. (by the way the formula you found on the internet is again overly simplistic with its assumptions), and you decided to get critically personal to me.

I disagree with you totally.

I was hoping to be helpful & just trying to contribute. I wanted to try to alleviate some of the overly paranoid attitude many have pertaining to the original posters situation. I'm an electrical engineer who 20 years ago learned the hard way when I was brought in to analyze how batteries caused a massive explosion in a remote located battery cabinet. It was unbelievable damage that I will never forget. I take this stuff verry seriously and science, math, logic, and reason is paramount to the discussion and important to me, and it can help people on this forum to efficiently addess the problem, I think. Competitive emotional 2nd hand googled hearsay nonsense won't. Yes, that is me getting to what I see as your type of response.

Professionally, I love this stuff. I design large and small battery rooms for major telecommunication companies using flooded cell, VRLA or "sealed cells", AGM, etc type batteries who require 99.999% reliability and safety in urban and extreme remote locations. I attend and contribute to the annual BATTCON conferences and have consulted with C&D, East Penn, and GNB on battery designs that meet strict requirements for long life, safety, capacity conservation, and charge and discharge specifications. I don't google this stuff, I live it daily.

But whatever, I just thought I'd chime in and try and contribute some of my expertise to pay back the expertise I have been lucky enough to benefit from on this forum from some of the outstanding contributors on this forum, but I'm definitely not interested in participating in urinary metering event with you. Its people like you who discourage people from contributing to this forum and run the risk of making this forum amatuer and narrow minded.

I won't make the same mistake again.

 

[dwh]

Dear DWH,

I obviously struck a nerve in your machismo conquest of king of all battery knowledge, but you are very dangerously wrong in everything you have said in your last post, actually EVERYTHING.

No, I'm not. And I never would have stuck my nose in it if you weren't handing out an information overload of irrelevant, garbled and partially wrong advice to a newb. Look at my first post in this thread - I posted only AFTER you screwed it up.

This is not about me being king of all battery knowledge, this is about someone handing out bad advice. Which wouldn't much matter if it weren't bad advice ABOUT SAFETY.

You left me no choice, I had to speak up.

Assumptions in your calculations make a big difference, as well as the things you assume to be irrelevant in the youtube video you posted. Those items are actually CRITICALLY important to battery charging, gassing, life expectancy, safety, etc.

As one small example, out of many, you use a 450 AH (!) 24 cell battery in your calculation - that would be a 48 Volt battery of a large size, not something relevant to a 12 volt battery discussion - 4x the voltage battery we use and much higher than the typical AH rating of the batteries used in 12 Volt applications.

No, I did NOT use 450ah in MY calculation. That was the number in THE EXAMPLE I QUOTED from the page that contained the formula.

AND 24 2v cells could also be rigged as 2v, 6v, 12v or 24v, as well as 48v. AT NO POINT in their example did they specify 48v. You saw 24 cells and then pulled 48v out of your ***. And then blamed me for it.





Had you actually read what I wrote:

So if he's got 2 x 6v batteries, that's going to produce roughly half of that in the example above.

You would know that, and you wouldn't be scolding me for something that I DID NOT DO.

So next time before you decide to chew someone else's ***, you really should take the time to find out if you actually have a damned clue what you are talking about.

A 48 volt battery is standard telecomm voltage, which is the website application you got this from, I think. Believe it or not, these things make a HUGE diference in gassing rates, heat generation and dissipation, charging voltage and gassing potential, as well the conclusions you come to.

That's a load of crap. There is no HUGE DIFFERENCE.




And, AGAIN, if you'd BOTHERED TO READ it, you would have noted that they said (and I quoted):

A typical lead acid motive power battery will develop approximately .01474 cubic feet of hydrogen per cell at standard temperature and pressure.

MOTIVE POWER BATTERY.

So NO, they WERE NOT talking about TELECOM batteries. You got that whacky idea from your original 48v whacky idea. Compounded your error. And again, attributed YOUR error to ME.

I was trying not to be personal, but it seemed you took it that way anyway, which is my fault I guess in the way I asked to do the calcs. (by the way the formula you found on the internet is again overly simplistic with its assumptions), and you decided to get critically personal to me.

No, I didn't take it personally. You were acting like a snotty twit, so I jerked your chain to focus your attention. 12 years as a journeyman electrician, 8 as a foreman - I'm pretty good at that technique.

I disagree with you totally.

That's your option. Over time, I bet that changes - though I don't expect you to acknowledge it.

I was hoping to be helpful & just trying to contribute.

That's great. I encourage it. Saves me the trouble.

I wanted to try to alleviate some of the overly paranoid attitude many have pertaining to the original posters situation.

Generally I would agree with that. But hydrogen DOES rise and it DOES gather in high spots and IT DOESN'T even need a flame to ignite. Under no circumstances will I sit by and say nothing while someone advises someone else to NOT BOTHER venting an open cell flooded lead-acid battery to the outside of a living compartment.

VRLA - different story, but NOT FLA.

I'm an electrical engineer who 20 years ago learned the hard way when I was brought in to analyze how batteries caused a massive explosion in a remote located battery cabinet. It was unbelievable damage that I will never forget. I take this stuff verry seriously and science, math, logic, and reason is paramount to the discussion and important to me, and it can help people on this forum to efficiently addess the problem, I think. Competitive emotional 2nd hand googled hearsay nonsense won't.

Ahh...electrical engineer. This explains why you were overloading a newb with irrelevant information.

Yes, that is me getting to what I see as your type of response.

My type? If you think I'm anything like anyone else, you don't know me very well.

And I first learned all of this stuff back in the 80's when I had to learn it to act as foreman for the electrical contractor who had the job of wiring up one of the first solar/smart houses in the Southwest. So no, I'm not just parroting stuff from Google. I've actually been there and done that. Though it is handy to be able to point people to sites where they can learn something.


And then I spent 12 years as a network engineer/IT consultant where working with datacenter-scale electrical backup systems was just one of the many things I had to deal with. (And datacenter backup is the same as telecom backup - often both are in the same building.)

Professionally, I love this stuff. I design large and small battery rooms for major telecommunication companies using flooded cell, VRLA or "sealed cells", AGM, etc type batteries who require 99.999% reliability and safety in urban and extreme remote locations. I attend and contribute to the annual BATTCON conferences and have consulted with C&D, East Penn, and GNB on battery designs that meet strict requirements for long life, safety, capacity conservation, and charge and discharge specifications. I don't google this stuff, I live it daily.

Then you SHOULD have known better. That you are in the business renders what you did less excusable, not more.

But whatever, I just thought I'd chime in and try and contribute some of my expertise to pay back the expertise I have been lucky enough to benefit from on this forum from some of the outstanding contributors on this forum, but I'm definitely not interested in participating in urinary metering event with you. Its people like you who discourage people from contributing to this forum and run the risk of making this forum amatuer and narrow minded.

Amateur and narrow minded. Being a snotty twit again I see.

I DO NOT discourage people from posting here or helping others. YOUR MISINFORMATION drug me into this thread. And my original post was short and sweet and to the point. As was my second post with the battery explosion video. And you just got done saying how you got called into to ANALYZE A BATTERY EXPLOSION. There is no possible way you can be unaware that lead-acid batteries CAN and DO explode.

Yet your response was that it looked like sensationalism. I guess you never saw this (oh wow, another Google link!):

https://www.google.com/search?clien...ei=dNYYVchzgYCxBNTLgvgK&ved=0CBQQsAQ&tbm=isch

I won't make the same mistake again.

Which mistake? Trying to help? Or handing out bad advice in an obtuse fashion?

 

[thethePete]

I'm just gonna throw this out there one more time.

If you want to use a standard flooded battery, use a SEALED BATTERY BOX with a 3/16-1/4" vent tube that extends outside of the box area. Run the vent tube from near the top of the battery box to outside (generally just drilling a hole beside the box and going straight down will be sufficient.

Why are we overcomplicating this with offgassing rates and everything? Congratulations you all have a big penis and have all won all the internet points. That being said, it's very easy to make a lead-acid battery explode. Simply disconnecting it from the charger incorrectly in your garage can be sufficient. It's not sensationalism. You guys can be electrical engineers or whatever you want. I'm a licensed mechanic. I work on cars all day. I have been trained to work on 12v systems, and "motive power batteries" -whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.

If you're that worried: Use a sealed battery. If you're not that worried, the suggestion I made above will work just fine. Don't believe me? Go pull the battery on a GMC Acadia. or a VW Tourag. Or any other number of vehicles that have the battery INSIDE the cabin.

 

[codesertrat]

Since this discussion is related to the safety aspects of batteries and concerns about vented hydrogen....

The flammability limits of hydrogen are in fact 4 - 74% mixed with air, I doublechecked that with my own documents. That is a very wide range of flammability, and that makes hydrogen at a MUCH higher risk of explosion (considering air fuel ratio requirements for combustion) than other gases that you may be concerned with.

Natural gas (primarily methane) has flammability limits of 5 - 15%.
Propane is only 2.1 - 9.5%.

Would any of you be comfortable with a natural gas or propane leak in to the confines of the cab of your vehicle? Of course not. Take appropriate measures to vent lead acid batteries to the outside of the vehicle cab area. That is not paranoia, that is just good sound advice to mitigate the possible (or probable) risk of an explosion.

Incidentally, I have experienced the exact scenario shown in the video where a charging battery nearby exploded due to an errant spark from a grinder (fortunately nobody hurt) in a large open-door shop. I have also personally seen the aftermath of other lead acid battery explosions in construction equipment, forklifts, and vehicles. That video is not sensationalism, and it is not an unlikely event. Take care!

 

[dwh]

Why are we overcomplicating this with offgassing rates and everything?

I was only doing it to correct some bad and possibly dangerous advice that the other guy was giving. He was using "do the scientific math" as his BS excuse.

(Typical "if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bull****".)

So okay, fine - I did the math.

Congratulations you all have a big penis and have all won all the internet points.

Congratulations, you have won all the Internet nanny/schoolteacher/referee points for putting us bad little boys in our place.

I have been trained to work on 12v systems, and "motive power batteries" -whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.

What that's supposed to mean, is that him saying the math was wrong because it was about telecom batteries was a BS red herring. That math in the example was referring to "motive power batteries" - i.e., golf cart or forklift batteries.

Which he would have known if he'd actually bothered to read it. I expect an engineer to have enough attention to detail to actually read it before he bags on it.

 

[dwh]

And for the record, there were two glaring errors in what I posted and I think both should be corrected. Since no one else is going to do it, I will.


First:

AND, any hydrogen which has gathered in a layer at a high point, is going to be at *what* density?

100%.

Where is the error? The statement of 100%. That would NOT happen unless the system were under pressure. I left an opportunity for an engineer - expert in hydrogen - to nail me on that one.

He didn't. He just accepted that BS number and ran with it. Why? Perhaps because he saw the trap? It was a trap because correcting that number down from 100% would have put it in that 4%-74% sweet spot.



Second:

(A) = 6-hour rated capacity of the battery in ampere hours.

To be correct in the context of what we were discussing, the formula should have used the 20 hour rate, not the 6 hour rate.

Again, I let it stand, to provide an opportunity for an expert to catch it, correct the formula and show that he actually is an expert.

No one caught it.

 

[Rockhounder]

Just how many cc's of hydrogen per minute is a car battery capable of producing? In something the size of a van interior, how many hours of constant generation would it take to achieve that percentage? And if there is the tiniest crack or vent near the top of the doors or roof, wouldn't the hydrogen all escape much faster than it can possible be generated?

Where is Mythbusters when you need them? I wonder if they ever did this one?

 

[thethePete]

^ It can blow up when you disconnect your booster cables after boosting a dead vehicle. That's what's being said. It is very, very easy to create an explosive situation in very short order with this type of battery. Your battery is in an open hood, open enginebay. Not a closed up cap or cabin.

DWH, I can appreciate correcting false information. I hate false information. I also appreciate formatting that doesn't take up over a screen of my browsing window for a single post.

At the end of the day though, all these people trying to get numbers to justify not venting the battery outside of the enclosed area are missing the point. It is very, very easy to make a lead-acid battery explode. It's not a matter of "how much offgassing does it need to do before it will explode". The answer is very little. The actual number is irrelevent in this discussion.

 

[dwh]

I also appreciate formatting that doesn't take up over a screen of my browsing window for a single post.

Yea well...it is what it is. My first two posts were short (and without any math), but didn't get the job done. But hey, that's why they make scrollbars!

 

[dwh]

Just how many cc's of hydrogen per minute is a car battery capable of producing? In something the size of a van interior, how many hours of constant generation would it take to achieve that percentage? And if there is the tiniest crack or vent near the top of the doors or roof, wouldn't the hydrogen all escape much faster than it can possible be generated?

Where is Mythbusters when you need them? I wonder if they ever did this one?

A) We weren't talking about a car battery. I thought from the OP's post, that we were talking about a pair of 6v golf cart batteries.

B) The math to figure out the hydrogen generated has already been posted. The answer was in hours and cubic feet. Feel free to convert that to minutes and cubic centimeters.

C) Would a tiny crack vent out hydrogen faster than the golf cart batteries supply it while being charged? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the size and location of the crack. Also depends on if there are any other cracks supplying return air to replace that which got vented.

 

[waves]

This is ridiculous. Talk about baffling with Bulls@#$t - wow! At this point I'm sure many people don't give a ******** and find what this turned in to be outrageous and stupid. I apologize for my role in it, but just to address the things I've been accused of -
To restate what I meant, which I guess wasn't not stated clearly - of course batteries explode, of course you should vent to the outside. Of course it doesn't matter if they are telecomm batteries or golf cart batteries or car batteries, it's about the battery type, not the application. The math has nothing to do with whether it is telecomm or golf cart battery, there's no difference in the math. So don't accuse me of something you made up. I just guessed wrongly that due to the 24 cell statement, which is common to telecomm, that this is where you got it from, but IT DOESN'T MATTER. Of course the application doesn't matter to the calculation and of course DWH's example calculation is terribly wrong. The 12 Volt car type batteries we use in this application are not made up of 24 cells, they are made of 6 cells, so your incorrect calculation is 4x wrong, not 2x, as well as being wrong in using the wrong AH determination. Two 6 Volts would still be 12 cells, the Op asked about both.
The 6 Hour discharge rate is wrong - 8,10, and even 20 hour discharge cycles are used by most manufacturers to determine AH capacity. This became confusing to people because of the way manufacturers used these different discharge rates to determine AH rating for marketing purposes, so now a lot of industrial batteries are rated in kWB – kilowattbattery. And using a properly rated 450 AH, 12 volt battery is not what we typically see in this application. You can find UPS batteries that size, but that's not the application we are talking about.

DWH's slimy planted traps were noticed by me – my way of stating that was when I replied that it wouldn't explode at 100%, though DWH stated that he “wasn't ready to accept” that hydrogen was combustible between 4-74% of volume. Wrong again, but I guess he accepts that now? But can you believe anything he says? Maybe that was just another slimy planted trap too-? I noted the 6 hour discharge cycle used for the AH rating being wrong but chose to point out only the glaring 24 cell error in his calculation as “one of many”. The youtube video is scary, sure it can happen but to think that battery age, charge state, charge voltage, how close it is to the +ve and –ve plates being shorted due to age which cause plates to grow in to each other doesn't matter or is “irrelevant” is nonsense. There is a reason why batteries blow, investigate and find out why - it just doesn't happen out of the blue for no reason, or else they wouldn't be able to sell them! Like I said - don't use old batteries, swap them out a regular schedule, depending on use or the number of discharge and charge cycles. Some manufacturers provide this data on the datasheet. Lots of things can happen, people don't always do what they are supposed to do or don't know. don't be one of those people. Should we never use jumper cables? Or should we know how to use them, understand the risks, and proceed? Or do we do nothing ourselves, be paranoid that there's electricity in the room, and just turn everything over to a shop to do? I didn't think this was that kind of audience on this forum.

Apparently the thought is that H2 just stays in a pocket of a vented truck bed waiting for a spark, can collect in a pocket and that this "pocket volume" is the volume to base the combustibility volume % on, as if the H2 is not exposed to the complete volume of the truck bed with the cap on, or that H2 won't diffuse very quickly throughout the whole truck bed. How absurd. Yes it rises and very very quickly disperses. Like I said, prevent this by always having a vent – whether that vent is an opening or a fan or whatever.
OK, so for the 6 volt batteries I wrote parallel instead of series, this was an obvious mistake for a 12V app, but again DWH makes the absurd statement that there is no voltage drop across connectors or connecting cables just because they are connected in series. V=IR and everything has an R unless he's got a line on superconductor cables so…..My point was to oversize the connecting cables to minimize any charging voltage difference between two 6 volt batteries. Man, that must mean I'm a expert poser and a terrible uneducated hack! OK - so I provided facts with formulas, used the words “science” and “math”, and other technical words, provided gassing rates and voltage specs – Damn I guess I was trying to baffle people! Or maybe I thought that there might be people who would be interested in details? Sorry, can't stop being an engineer, I thought there might be others on the forum who were interested in such things too. Guess I was wrong and didn't think that the people who are not interested would take offense to such thing - really? UFB. I also was wrong when I kept writing “cab” when I actually meant “truck bed”, which was the original posters question. Big difference. So rake me over the coals for all these things, I get how it works now.
Other than that I stand by what I said. Don't use a sealed battery box – this can be a cause of a battery explosion if the gas evolved when charging gets trapped inside a small volume box that can reach combustible levels quickly rather than the much larger volume of a truck bed with cap - even with a vent tube, you're one clogged tube away from gas not being able to escape a very low volume sealed box. This is what caused the huge explosion I said I was called in to analyze. A sealed battery box and a charger mistakenly left on equalize, a high voltage charge. Like I said - Use a vented box in a vented truck bed cap, isn't that the situation the original posted asked about? Don't overcharge, use the right charging voltage for the battery, don't charge a hot battery with the wrong voltage, don't sleep in an enclosed area with a battery on charge. Understand that Hydrogen very quickly disperses and is generated at very small rates when on charge only, that overcharge is what causes higher gas evolution rates, and even a small vent will insure that combustible levels are not reached. But there's obviously no room for any one else but the glorious all knowing trap setting DWH on this subject, my mistake.

What a bunch of stupid BS to come from trying to help out! Sorry if the information I provided offends your long held beliefs. I was just trying to allay fears the original poster had which I thought was about keeping a battery in his truck bed and whether he could safely sleep back there safely. We should all never go in to Walmart where they have batteries on the shelves - too unsafe. Geez.

 

[waves]

View attachment 278145
VRLA, not FLA gassing rates and sample calc from C&D

http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2008/ODonnellPaper2008PROOF_6.pdf
FLA battery gassing paper from BattCon 2008 - note the paper addresses large industrial battery installations consisting of 24+ huge flooded cells rated around 1500-2000AH, doesn't exactly apply to the discussion but some nuggets in there - thought I'd post it. Though its technical I really hope it doesn't offend anyone or make them think I am being obtuse or baffling with BS!

 

[rayra]

Totally unnecessary concern. Hydrogen is the only likelihood and that stuff will run right up and out of whatever place the battery is, unless you deliberately attempt to seal it in.