Custom Camper Build - f-350 vs 450/3500 vs 4500, GVRW, Gas

[S2DM]

Hey All,

Heather and I are in the midst of I guess what you'd call it a pivot. We are most of the way done with our camper, and recently finished rebuilding our unimog 435. However, life changed, and we are now looking at more shorter duration, longer distance trips (I.E. driving a few hundred miles then camping for a week), and the occasional longer trip through baja. We also need a flatbed pickup for our new farm/orchard.

As much as I completely love our Mog, it was much better suited to our build when we were planning on doing the entire pan am over 2-3 years.

Here is a link to our build thread

So, we are looking at modifying our box and sticking it on something different. We were initially really onto the the fuso, but at the end of the day, we also need a flat bed as well as a super cab/seating for more than Heather and I. I'm also 6'7" tall, and I felt pretty stuffed into the fuso.

Right now we are thinking:

f350 or 450, likely new, likely gas. Also considering the Ram.

Our camper weighs about 1500lbs right now, bare without water, batteries etc and isnt finished, so will weigh more when done/painted etc. We have a 100 gallon water tank (for long baja trips). We havent installed storage boxes, windows etc yet either, so we are hoping our wet weight will be around 4000-4500lbs, but that might be a low estimate.

We love our Baja runs and I dont want another vehicle I have to frequetly tinker with. So we were leaning towards a new truck, with a gas engine, to avoid the ULSD stuff in mexico. We have a diesel powered webasto coolant heater and stove, so I will probably just install an auxiliary 10-15 gallon tank for diesel for those. We won't often be towing, and when we do, it will be light.

Things we'd love to know

1) Ford vs Ram vs ?
2) What payload rating if we might be occasionally over 5k lbs? Is it worthwhile to do the SRW conversion and get the higher capacity of a 450 or 550 (we have already budgeted a set of hutchinsons if so to run 335's)? We will mostly be using the flatbed for moving plants around and picking up mulch, so we will only be at or above capacity on a 350 when we are fully loaded with the camper.
3) Gas ok for a camper of this weight?

In short, we are really stuck about brands and whether we should overshoot a bit on our weight rating. Seems a common theme on the 350 builds is if they had it to do over again, they would have opted for the higher GVWR platform, but there are things about the 350 that make it appealing.

Any advice appreciated greatly!!

-Scott and Heather

 

[njtacoma]

I'll just get the legal question out of the way.

If you consciously travel above GVWR or GVCWR in a vehicle you run a huge liability risk in the event of an accident. It is possible for your insurance company to deny coverage in the event of an accident if you are running overweight.

That is a gamble.

so my $.02 is get the bigger truck, not worth the gamble.

There is some great real world conversation in a quote by gun45boat about his experience running a fleet (if you search you can find it) and he is an advocate of gas engines on a cost basis analysis. The gas will do the trick, might be a bit slower at times, but the cost will be lower overall.

Personally a f450 or f550 with hutchinson headlocks is pure coolness.

 

[EXP-T100]

first love the Mog! i would go with the Ram over the Ford for the max weight and towing is higher on the Ram. Now i know you dont wont to run a diesel but just to help understand why i would go ram over ford is i have been helping my father in-law with his new f250. He is over weight according to specs: 2015 f250 diesel 14000lbs max(f350 srw is the same for tow #'s). That sounds nice but he can only "haul" 700lbs more than my 2001 ram 2500 ctd. Needless to say he is going back to a gmc when there updates come out next yr (think next yr?). i have also seen a vid ford did, a tow test and they had to use a ram 3500 vs the f450 to get the closest specs. payload is almost double in the ram over the ford (diesel to diesel), ram 3500 srw gas payload is 4013lbs & 4500 is 7231lbs. For the ford the f450 is 5300lbs f350 srw is 3060lbs (looking at 4x4 crew for both). I grew up on fords and owned a lot of them but they are falling behind in the max tow/payload.
ford max #: http://www.ford.com/trucks/superduty/specifications/payload/
ram max #: http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/

Depending on what you like about the ford i would take a close look at the ram. For me i would rather have the extra capacity. it seem for traveling "we" always wish we had more capacity.

Gas is ok for the weight, although with about 2x the torq. in the diesels it is night and day imo. For diesel i like the ctd over ford for diesel but thats cuz i love cummins, the reason i own a 2001 ram is for the 5.9 cummins lol.

What is it about the f350 that you like so much?
Hope this has helped

Josh

 

[S2DM]

first love the Mog! i would go with the Ram over the Ford for the max weight and towing is higher on the Ram. Now i know you dont wont to run a diesel but just to help understand why i would go ram over ford is i have been helping my father in-law with his new f250. He is over weight according to specs: 2015 f250 diesel 14000lbs max(f350 srw is the same for tow #'s). That sounds nice but he can only "haul" 700lbs more than my 2001 ram 2500 ctd. Needless to say he is going back to a gmc when there updates come out next yr (think next yr?). i have also seen a vid ford did, a tow test and they had to use a ram 3500 vs the f450 to get the closest specs. payload is almost double in the ram over the ford (diesel to diesel), ram 3500 srw gas payload is 4013lbs & 4500 is 7231lbs. For the ford the f450 is 5300lbs f350 srw is 3060lbs (looking at 4x4 crew for both). I grew up on fords and owned a lot of them but they are falling behind in the max tow/payload.
ford max #: http://www.ford.com/trucks/superduty/specifications/payload/
ram max #: http://www.ramtrucks.com/en/towing_guide/

Depending on what you like about the ford i would take a close look at the ram. For me i would rather have the extra capacity. it seem for traveling "we" always wish we had more capacity.

Gas is ok for the weight, although with about 2x the torq. in the diesels it is night and day imo. For diesel i like the ctd over ford for diesel but thats cuz i love cummins, the reason i own a 2001 ram is for the 5.9 cummins lol.

What is it about the f350 that you like so much?
Hope this has helped

Josh

Nothing specific about ford versus diesel, its really trying to sort through opinions. Read the f350 versus ram 3500 thread and it seemed the balance of opinion was in favor of the ford with charged folks on either side. We dont have an allegiance to any brand. My main interest is the smallest package that will reliably and safely care us and our camper. We are soo much lighter than an earthroamer etc, I dont think we need a full 5500,550. But the extra payload is appealing. I'm curious why the big builders seem to choose ford?

I'd prefer a diesel if I felt it could do mex reliably. My understanding is that USLD is becoming more common, and you can stretch your first tank and last by dilution with regular diesel. But the issue of not finding usld bothers me, as does the complexity of the new engines. And after the mog, I dont really want to get into something older again, when it enters the arc of predictable failures.

 

[S2DM]

The other thing I forgot to mention is that the truck won't be driven daily in terms of gas versus diesel. When we are traveling with the camper, it will get used a lot, then probably go through some periods of little to no use. My understanding was that this wasnt great for diesels?

 

[EXP-T100]

For big builders it comes down to who will give them the best deal most of the time. ER might have another reasons for using ford but it usually come down to price.

You keep saying "USLD" do you mean ULSD: Ultra-low-sulfur diesel? If so new diesels are built for it and you dont have to worry about it unless you get something older like a 24v with a vp44 pump that need the sulfur to help lub the vp44 fuel pump. Then you do what i do and add a qt to 2 stroke oil to every tank.

As far as using it and then parking it for some time it wont hurt the diesel in fax diesel fuel stores better that gas these days.

And if you go with a diesel you can always add another fuel filter if you will be getting into iffy fuel. Or just get an AirDog or FASS lift pump and put a Cat 1R0751 2 micron filter on it.


Josh

 

[S2DM]

For big builders it comes down to who will give them the best deal most of the time. ER might have another reasons for using ford but it usually come down to price.

You keep saying "USLD" do you mean ULSD: Ultra-low-sulfur diesel? If so new diesels are built for it and you dont have to worry about it unless you get something older like a 24v with a vp44 pump that need the sulfur to help lub the vp44 fuel pump. Then you do what i do and add a qt to 2 stroke oil to every tank.

As far as using it and then parking it for some time it wont hurt the diesel in fax diesel fuel stores better that gas these days.

And if you go with a diesel you can always add another fuel filter if you will be getting into iffy fuel. Or just get an AirDog or FASS lift pump and put a Cat 1R0751 2 micron filter on it.


Josh

Yes, I meant ULSD My concern was the opposite though, the newer trucks are not warrantied to run on the high sulfur diesel still present in much of mexico, I've definitely read reports of big problems from this and heard from others in the know its not that big of a deal.

 

[Darwin]

1) Ford vs Ram vs ?

I would say Ram, but only because of the Cummins diesel, when it comes to gas, I don't see that much of a difference between the two. Take your pick.

2) What payload rating if we might be occasionally over 5k lbs? Is it worthwhile to do the SRW conversion and get the higher capacity of a 450 or 550 (we have already budgeted a set of hutchinsons if so to run 335's)? We will mostly be using the flatbed for moving plants around and picking up mulch, so we will only be at or above capacity on a 350 when we are fully loaded with the camper.

If you are looking at cab and chassis trucks, I see no reason to get the 3500 or 4500 when you can get the 5500, more payload that way and the truck is physically the same size but with higher rating. Keep in mind if you are going with 41 inch tires, you will have to chose your gears accordingly. 41's are going to mean the gas motor will have to work that much harder and probably get horrible MPG, but if you are only taking occasional trips, it shouldn't really be a factor.

3) Gas ok for a camper of this weight?

I am assuming if they make a gas in 4500 or 5500 it should be okay for the weight, I just personally would not want to drive one.

Nothing specific about ford versus diesel, its really trying to sort through opinions. Read the f350 versus ram 3500 thread and it seemed the balance of opinion was in favor of the ford with charged folks on either side.

The opinions seem to revolve around which one has the nicer interior, any new truck to my eyes has nice interior so it's a moot point, the Hemi I hear is a good motor, and I am sure the ford gas motor is probably just as good.

I'd prefer a diesel if I felt it could do mex reliably. My understanding is that USLD is becoming more common, and you can stretch your first tank and last by dilution with regular diesel. But the issue of not finding usld bothers me, as does the complexity of the new engines. And after the mog, I dont really want to get into something older again, when it enters the arc of predictable failures.

I could do mex reliably, I just wouldn't trust the Ford diesel, but that would be same if in the states or mexico. There is a member in mexico right now with a 2015 5500 Ram Cummins, with a 50 gallon tank I think you would be okay to do it, since you are only going to baja. I have heard the new DPF's on the Ram are much better than previous and don't soot up so fast. You could of course always remove the EGR and DPF if you can get away with it in your jurisdiction. Problem solved.

 

[Healeyjet]

Is there much modification needed to run the 41" tires on either the 3500/5500 or the F550?
Ward

 

[EXP-T100]

You might wont to talk to ford and cummins about what they think. From what i am seeing from ford and ram mexico, ford offers there 6.7 power stroke down there (a few yrs back you could still get a new super duty with a 4bt!) and ram only offer there gassers down there. Here is a doc. from cummins but looks old i would still call: https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/pdfs/product_lit/americas_brochures/PB02-07-2.pdf

I see why you are looking into a gasser the more i look at what you want to do. i like diesel to much and would get something older but thats me. Or do what Darwin said, DPF delete but you will need to get a truck 2012 or older.

Josh

 

[goodtimes]

I see why you are looking into a gasser the more i look at what you want to do. i like diesel to much and would get something older but thats me. Or do what Darwin said, DPF delete but you will need to get a truck 2012 or older.

I know the OP said he wasn't looking to get into another older truck - but for those who are thinking "older is better": You're going to have a tough time finding full coverage insurance for Mexico on anything older than 15 years.

 

[deminimis]

Reportedly, Baja is ULSD and some report ULSD is available in Baja Sur. I dunno. The new trucks won't have the DPF plugging issue of the 07-10-ish ones. I have been unable to verify what ill effects (if any) could happen with a newer diesel when running LSD. More DEF use perhaps? Just down there with our new 5500 and had zero issues. Seems like I used more DEF, but perhaps not. Not really sure. Not enough to matter one way or the other. I like diesel.

Like others have chimed, go bigger. We are a mere 1k pounds shy of our 5500's capacity when fully loaded with gear, bodies, water, beer, etc. I planned for that, but had I gone with a smaller truck, we'd be leaving stuff at home (not the beer, perhaps a kid, the teenager, but never the beer).

Diesel Power: 450/4500 and up diesels are detuned. Still more oomph than a Ford V-10 when pulling that big grade out of Loreto, but keep that in mind. The exception is the Ford F-450 pickup (not the cab chassis). That pickup's GVWR is at 14k, so it does not have the stricter EPA requirements and gets all the power of it's smaller brethren (including the Gen II updates). So, that's the route I'd go, based on your needs, if you're asking. Unfortunately, you'll have to get rid of the bed in favor of a flatbed, but someone will buy it eventually. I was close to going this route, but I really needed the higher capacity, so I went with a new 5500. Even at 18500, I go up the steepest grades at 55mph. Our former Ford F550 w/ a V10 at a similar weight, would peter out to 45....40...and lower. Mileage was comparable, but with the slight nod going to our new Ram (which is still breaking in and bone stock, as far as engine mods).

I could have gone with either the Ford or Ram for this last rig (GM doesn't make a 5500 anymore) and chose the Ram (my first) for a few reasons that I will not bore you with. That said, I'd say it is six or half-dozen between the two and comes down to grill ornament preference (Blue Oval vs Female Reproductive Sculpture that resembles a ram's head).

 

[mhiscox]

Lots of good points here, so I don't have a lot to add, except to add that I have also seen cost benefit studies on, and a couple of articles about, why work truck fleets have started to move from diesel to gas engines. The essence of the information is that with

-- diesel costing substantially more than petrol,

-- diesel maintenance costs being greater,

-- the diesel's initial purchase price coming in many thousands higher, and

-- the lifespan of a big gas engine no longer being way less than a diesel's,

the payback period from the greater fuel economy is too long to be make business sense.

 

[oiler]

I drove an 2008 f550 v10 4x4 service truck for 125,000 miles. It normally weighed about 17,000 pounds. I lived and worked out in Wyoming at the time, so I put on a lot of off road miles with it. It was great, extremely durable, never missed a beat. I had no like at all for the V10 before that, and will say in all honesty, I would purchase one for my self. I think It would work well for your needs.

I have not run the Dodge gas motors or the Ford 6.2l gas, so can't comment on them.

 

[deminimis]

One other thing to consider is resale. If you have time to watch similar rigs in the market, you will likely find the gas versions are priced way low and stay on the market for much longer than their diesel counterparts.