Winch control box reloacation and proper gauge cables.

Scoutn79

Adventurer
I don't entirely disagree, I thought about sodier, but there are 2 things I don't like about it. First it will stiffen the wire in a significant section around the joint when it wicks up. The other is if I get the wire hot enough to adhere properly, I'm not sure how far back I'll damage the coating. I will cover with heatshrink of course, but I'd need a lot less not covering up damaged insulator. (And good heat shrink in a size for 2/0 is $$$ out there, I think I'm getting 4ft of it at like $25-$30 total.) I need to make at least 12 connections.
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I just checked mine. I used high quality 2/0 welding cable (used but free from a rigging company I use),it has a high temp insulator so if you use regular cable your results my differ. The insulation is set back maybe 1/8' from the lug...more likely from me trimming than heat burning it back. Also the solder wicking is maybe 1/4", if that. Then it is covered with good heat shrink.
Get the heat shrink online...I used "Cable Ties and More" and you get heat shrink of a much higher quality and far far cheaper than Auto Zone etc.

Darrell
 

offroader613

New member
Those are what I was looking at. I'd get one on a few recommendations, what I was worried about most was proper die sizes. I found reviews on the Harbor Freight unit and the biggest complaint there was the dies were grossly inaccurate for the gauge wire, resulting in a mashing crimp or not enough crimp. I kinda figured most Chinese models may have similar issues.

I'll look into them further, thanks. I'd use a tool like that over and over given the number of vehicles I piddle with, not to mention my parent's stuff I help out on fix-it jobs. My Dad's tractor needs battery cables right now I think. My other 4x4's probably need their cables re-done, and if I ever get the chance to put a winch on one of them I'll be doing all this over again.

I read that about the HF model, and that's why I bought mine off of eBay, because they seem to have an updated set of dies. The dies are pretty true to size, the only issue is that they are in metric, not awg, so you need to know the conversion. In my case, for 4 gauge, there wasn't a proper sized set in the metric, so I used a 16 mm^2 (next smallest) and a 25 mm^2 die together, and it crimped really well.
 

Airmapper

Inactive Member
Thanks again for all the comments, I thought I would update this with how it turned out.

I got the YQK crimpers, 16 ton model. Worked like a charm. I didn't take photos but I made a crimp and cut it in the center, it was solid copper.

In addition to the cables for the winch, I also had to make a few extensions for my stock leads to fit the group 31 Odyssey. (Group 35 is OEM). I wanted to tamper with them minimally. The positive side disassembled from the clamp, and I bolted it directly onto the new extension with a 3/8" bolt. The ground lead had to be cut, I used a copper crimp on it and attached that to the extension.

All my terminals are bolt type now, no lead posts. I would say that is a problem for removing them quickly, however the clamping type required tools to remove as well, so I really did not loose any benefit there.

I do need something better to cover the hot terminal on the battery. That cap works for now until I figure out how I plan to cover that more securely.

Here is the completed install. 2/0 ga cables to the remote mount winch controller box, high and dry by the firewall. A manual cutoff switch when not in use.

All in all I made about 17 terminals with the crimper.

IMG_0247.JPG

IMG_0249.JPG

IMG_0251.JPG
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Nice work. But...this is a bit sketchy bro. Even if that cover piece is plastic, it could still cut the insulation from vibration. I'd take an old piece of heater hose, slit it and make a wrap for that bundle.




IMG_0249-2.jpg
 

Airmapper

Inactive Member
Nice work. But...this is a bit sketchy bro. Even if that cover piece is plastic, it could still cut the insulation from vibration. I'd take an old piece of heater hose, slit it and make a wrap for that bundle.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll go back over it this coming weekend now I've driven a few days with it in place and see where things may rub and add some padding. Not just that spot but the whole setup.

That reminds me, I think I actually do have an old radiator hose laying around that will be perfect for the spot you circled.
 

Antichrist

Expedition Leader
Ignore the voltage drop. Size the wire for the expected max load.
Huh? That's how you know what size cable to use. Figure your load and run length and calculate the volt drop based on your voltage. Go up in cable size until you have an acceptable drop.
Using a welding lead calculator is going to have you spending a lot more on copper than you need to. 40' of cable is going to give you a lot more drop than 6'.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Huh? That's how you know what size cable to use. Figure your load and run length and calculate the volt drop based on your voltage. Go up in cable size until you have an acceptable drop.
Using a welding lead calculator is going to have you spending a lot more on copper than you need to. 40' of cable is going to give you a lot more drop than 6'.


Nah, you know what size cable (and fuse) to use when you know what the max amps are that it will need to carry. Voltage drop doesn't really matter. I know - everyone says it matters - especially the "solar experts" - but it pretty much doesn't.

As soon as he hits the power switch on that winch under load, it's going to draw down the voltage big time anyway. When the battery is at 12.8v, and you hit the switch and dump 150a of load on it, and the voltage of the circuit (battery, wire, winch motor) drops to 11v...how is a couple of percentage points either way actually going to matter? It won't. What matters is that the wire can carry however many amps it needs to.


But how about a different sort of load - like an inverter? Okay, let's do that. To make the math easy, I'll say an inverter rated 1200w continuous, 1800w surge. At 12v that'd be 100a and 150a. Let's say it's 5' from the battery, so a 10' loop And I'll use the "common wisdom" of 3% max voltage drop as "acceptable".

I'll use this voltage drop calculator, because it does DC:

http://www.calculator.net/voltage-d...ce=10&distanceunit=feet&amperes=100&x=55&y=10

And I'll use this AWG wire gauge table from some university because it's handy:

https://www.eol.ucar.edu/rtf/facilities/isff/LOCAL_access_only/Wire_Size.htm


Okay, so we need to carry a max of 150a at 12v. According to the AWG chart, if we were doing chassis wiring (we're not) we could get away with #3, but since we're doing power transmission, we need 1/0 (one-ought) to carry 150a.

So let's plug that into the voltage drop calc - 150a, 12vdc, 10' loop. We get 1.25% voltage drop.

Oh...but that's way too low - we can use 3%...so let's make the wire smaller until we get to 3%. Well, #4 gives us 3.08%, but exceeds our "3% maximum". #3 gives us 2.50%, which is below the 3% max. Now we go back to the AWG wire chart and find that #3 is only rated for 75a for power transmission.


So which wire do we choose? The one that can carry 150a, or the one that gives us 3% or less voltage drop...but can only carry half the amps we need?

We choose the one that can carry the amps we need - of course.



But that's all deceptive anyway. Say the inverter has a cutoff of 10.5v. So now we need to calculate at 1800w / 10.5v = 171.42a. So let's redo the voltage drop calc with the true max amp number of 172a and the true voltage of 10.5v and we get 3.24% drop with #3. Woops, that's exceeds the "3% max". So we move up to a bigger wire. With #2 we get a 2.57% drop. That's under 3%. Now we check and see that #2 is rated to carry 94a for power transmission.

But we need to carry 172a...


So instead, let's just size the wire for the expected amp load and see what we get. AWG chart says we need 2/0. So 2/0, 10' loop, 10.5v, 172a - 1.24% drop.

Well...that's certainly less than the "3% max" everyone prattles on about, and it will also carry the 172a load.


Now, just for ******ts & giggles, let's crank up the distance to see how far we can get before we exceed 3% with those numbers. At 24' we'll hit 3.05%.



So if we size the wire to carry the expected amp load, we can put the inverter up to 12' from the battery before we have to worry about voltage drop exceeding 3%. But what if we go 20' away from the battery. That'd be a 40' loop. According to the calculator, that's going to give us a .54v drop.

But all that means in the real world, is that the inverter is going to shut down with the battery at 11v instead of 10.5v.

And if we're maxing out that inverter, and dragging the battery down to 11v - is that extra half a volt really going to matter? Nah - if the inverter shuts down with the battery at 11v instead of 10.5v...so what? Who cares? Besides...the only time it's actually going to happen is when the inverter is running at max overdrive and the battery has been dragged down to damned near dead.



Now if we're speccing out a solar rig for a house and talking about one-way distances of 50' or 100', then we have to give a crap about voltage drop and we need to dial everything in to where we might save a couple grand on copper.

But we could instantly cut our copper need in half just by doubling the voltage of the system. Double it again, and cut it in half again. And, at higher system voltage, voltage drop is less of an issue anyway.


Just because everyone says, "voltage drop is soooo important" doesn't mean it's actually true in every situation.

It just depends.
 
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Airmapper

Inactive Member
How much can the alternator "help" with voltage? I know it will plummet with load, but the alternator is trying to maintain voltage higher than 12v, more like 14.something on most vehicles I believe. I wonder if this can compensate in any way for voltage drop, especially when we are talking amounts less than 10%. When your starting point is higher than 12v, by the time it drops it may still be over 12v, in my mind, but I'm no electrician. (Leaning that way though, considering the amount of wiring I've done, learning something every project.)
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
The alternator isn't trying to do anything. It is supplying power to replace that which is being sucked out of the bus by loads. If it has a rating of 100a, then it can replace up to 100a of the power being sucked out, and the rest will come from storage (the battery).

The alternator does have a potential maximum voltage that is a lot higher than what is needed, and since the alternator keeps spinning all the time, the voltage regulator is needed to make sure that the voltage doesn't rise too high.

But the voltage can't rise too high if there is a heavy load drawing down the bus voltage. If the heavy load is greater than the alternator can supply, then the load will be drawing down the battery as well.

But the actual voltage that the system is operating at, at any given moment, depends on how much the loads are consuming vs. how much potential is available to replenish what is being consumed vs. how fast the replacement flows.

So say you have a winch running, and it's drawing 150a. And you have a 100a alternator. Well 50a is going to get sucked out of the battery. So the actual voltage at the moment is going to depend on how fast that is flowing out of the battery. If the battery+wire resistance is high, the voltage is going to drop more than if the battery+wire resistance is low.

Now say the battery was at 14.5v (voltage regulator set point), and after a session of heavy winching, it's been pulled down to say 12.5v. With the winch off (heavy load removed), the voltage of the system will be at 12.5v and the voltage regulator will keep the alternator switched on. As the battery absorbs power, its voltage rises, and the entire system voltage rises with it. When it hits 14.5v the voltage regulator will start switching the alternator on/off quickly to maintain the system at 14.5v.
 

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