Full Sized Trailer Tug SUV: Ford vs. Chevy vs. Toyota vs. Nissan - input sought...

[Martinjmpr]

This is another mental exercise for me but I wanted to poll the board here and see what kinds of things I might be looking for if I wanted to move up to a full sized SUV.
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So here's my question for the group: Based on your knowledge and experience, how would you rate the full sized SUVs in terms of power, usefulness, reliability, fuel economy, and general build quality?
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Reason I'm asking is that while my '07 4runner is a perfectly adequate tow vehicle for "Livia", our little T@B clamshell, I keep thinking that I might eventually want to move up to a full sized SUV (particularly if we ever get rid of Livia in favor of the Airstream Liz is always talking about wanting.)
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I would probably be looking at getting a replacement vehicle next year at the earliest, since we're still paying off Livia, but potentially I could be shopping in the Summer of 2016.
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My budget would most likely be in the 12k - 20k range just because I don't see any point in paying more than that (unless there's a good reason to do so.)
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My requirements would be: V8 engine, ability to tow at least 4,000lbs comfortably (which in my mind means a tow rating of at least 6000), true 4wd with low range and at least mild off-road capability (for those familiar with Colorado and Utah, think Alpine Loop or White Rim trail, without the trailer obviously.)
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Just scanning CL it seems the likely contenders are the 1st gen (2007 and earlier) Toyota Sequoia, the Nissan Armada, the Chevy Tahoe (and its clone the GMC Yukon), and the Ford Expedition. The 100 series Land Cruiser may also be a contender although I think if I'm going to go big, I want to go BIG and the LC still seems "mid sized" to me.
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Being a Toyota guy, I'm most familiar with the Sequoia. It's too bad that the "newest" 1st gen Sequoia will be 9 years old by next year (2007 was the last year of the older body style) but I know Toyota's last a long time. As far as the 2nd gen (2008+) Sequoia, not only are they way out of my price range but I can't stand the way they look. IIRC the 1st gens had the A340 4 speed through 2004 and then got the 5 speed for the last three model years (05-07), correct? There are a surprising number of these in my price range so they might be the first choice but I don't want to be a "Toyota bigot" and ignore the competition.
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So what can you tell me about the Armada? As near as I can tell they've been pretty much the same in terms of running gear for their whole run, right? 5.6 V8, 5 speed auto? Any particular years to avoid or desire? How does the "automatic 4wd" work in those? (I know the Sequoia has the same "multi-mode 4wd" that my V6 4runner has.) Any concerns about the independent rear suspension on mild 4wd roads?
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Ditto for the Tahoe. I don't really know anything about them except I see a lot of them on the road. Are there some years/models that are more desirable than others? Any known pesky issues like electrical gremlins?
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And finally, same question re: Expedition. I know they went to IRS some years ago, but, again, I see a ton of them on the road so I assume they work OK? Do they have an 'automatic 4wd' system like the Tahoe and Armada do, and if so, how does it work (I would assume it works by using the ABS sensors to detect wheel slippage but I don't know.)
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Mostly I'm just looking for input from those who have full-size vehicles. This board has a kind of mid-sized 'bias', which is probably understandable given the kind of travel people do.
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A bit OT but if I did go to a "full size" 4x4 SUV it would be the first time I'd owned such a vehicle since 1985. That was the year I traded my '71 Blazer for a new, 1985 Toyota 4x4 Hilux pickup, my first new vehicle ever. :elkgrin:

 

[amo292]

Its a tough decision you have to make, but we have all been there! Ill chime in with my experience.

The 1st gen sequoias are great. We had one with the bullet prof 4.7 for a few years and loved it. I don't remember what we were getting for mpg cause no one really cared in 06 haha. We used it to tow our two horse trailer occasionally, but it definitely wasn't made for that. It towed our small boat like a dream though so I wouldn't worry about 4k behind it.

Id strongly recommend re-evaluating the 2nd gen sequoias. They are great vehicles and are high up on our list for the next SUV. They can be had with the 5.7 and share a ton with the current tundras (I have an 08 Tundra now and love it). Towing and capacity are huge if thats what your looking for. Sticking with Toyota is a wise idea. No other company takes care of its customers better in my eyes. There is also a reason they are so expensive. They hold their value extremely well because they are such good vehicles.

My dad currently has a 2012 Yukon and we can't wait to get rid of it when the lease is up. We have had nothing but issues with it since new. It tows the horse trailer really well and is extremely comfortable but its just cheap.... Everything is plastic and not very durable. If we decide to go back into a full size Suv it definitely won't be a GM.

I know absolutely nothing about armadas... Only have seen them with crazy rust issues.

Hope this helps!

 

[calicamper]

This is another mental exercise for me but I wanted to poll the board here and see what kinds of things I might be looking for if I wanted to move up to a full sized SUV.
.
So here's my question for the group: Based on your knowledge and experience, how would you rate the full sized SUVs in terms of power, usefulness, reliability, fuel economy, and general build quality?
.
Reason I'm asking is that while my '07 4runner is a perfectly adequate tow vehicle for "Livia", our little T@B clamshell, I keep thinking that I might eventually want to move up to a full sized SUV (particularly if we ever get rid of Livia in favor of the Airstream Liz is always talking about wanting.)
.
I would probably be looking at getting a replacement vehicle next year at the earliest, since we're still paying off Livia, but potentially I could be shopping in the Summer of 2016.
.
My budget would most likely be in the 12k - 20k range just because I don't see any point in paying more than that (unless there's a good reason to do so.)
.
My requirements would be: V8 engine, ability to tow at least 4,000lbs comfortably (which in my mind means a tow rating of at least 6000), true 4wd with low range and at least mild off-road capability (for those familiar with Colorado and Utah, think Alpine Loop or White Rim trail, without the trailer obviously.)
.
Just scanning CL it seems the likely contenders are the 1st gen (2007 and earlier) Toyota Sequoia, the Nissan Armada, the Chevy Tahoe (and its clone the GMC Yukon), and the Ford Expedition. The 100 series Land Cruiser may also be a contender although I think if I'm going to go big, I want to go BIG and the LC still seems "mid sized" to me.
.
Being a Toyota guy, I'm most familiar with the Sequoia. It's too bad that the "newest" 1st gen Sequoia will be 9 years old by next year (2007 was the last year of the older body style) but I know Toyota's last a long time. As far as the 2nd gen (2008+) Sequoia, not only are they way out of my price range but I can't stand the way they look. IIRC the 1st gens had the A340 4 speed through 2004 and then got the 5 speed for the last three model years (05-07), correct? There are a surprising number of these in my price range so they might be the first choice but I don't want to be a "Toyota bigot" and ignore the competition.
.
So what can you tell me about the Armada? As near as I can tell they've been pretty much the same in terms of running gear for their whole run, right? 5.6 V8, 5 speed auto? Any particular years to avoid or desire? How does the "automatic 4wd" work in those? (I know the Sequoia has the same "multi-mode 4wd" that my V6 4runner has.) Any concerns about the independent rear suspension on mild 4wd roads?
.
Ditto for the Tahoe. I don't really know anything about them except I see a lot of them on the road. Are there some years/models that are more desirable than others? Any known pesky issues like electrical gremlins?
.
And finally, same question re: Expedition. I know they went to IRS some years ago, but, again, I see a ton of them on the road so I assume they work OK? Do they have an 'automatic 4wd' system like the Tahoe and Armada do, and if so, how does it work (I would assume it works by using the ABS sensors to detect wheel slippage but I don't know.)
.
Mostly I'm just looking for input from those who have full-size vehicles. This board has a kind of mid-sized 'bias', which is probably understandable given the kind of travel people do.
.
A bit OT but if I did go to a "full size" 4x4 SUV it would be the first time I'd owned such a vehicle since 1985. That was the year I traded my '71 Blazer for a new, 1985 Toyota 4x4 Hilux pickup, my first new vehicle ever. :elkgrin:

I replaced our 93 LC with a 07 Sequoia back in 2011. It had 64,000 miles on it original owner piles of Dealer paper and history etc, paid 21K for it. My thoughts are this I like the Sequoia but the only reason I bought it was for butts in seats capability I see it as our Minivan with proper tires and a spare tire with true 4x4 capability and decent towing capacity. If it were just the wife and I? I would go pickup with a FWC on it. Here is why...

#1 I like sailing I can't tow our tent trailer or RV trailer and a sailboat at the same time
#1.5 - if all we are doing is camping there are lots of locations where I would like to camp that trailers are not allowed
#1.55 - If we roll into a busy fun little town the pickup with camper is much much much easier to find parking for!

Having said that if you don't have interest in boats or say hauling other toys along then the trailer idea is nice. The down side to the Sequoia vs pickup assuming you do not need butts in seats ability is you can't use the sequoia as your gear storage like the back of a truck with a cap on it. Your bicycles and other stuff can be stored out of sight and out of the elements in the truck bed not as easy to do with the Sequoia. Keep in mind the big complaint with RV trailers is that they typically are short on space for the stuff you don't want rattling around inside the trailer, like your tool box, fishing gear, hiking gear, biking gear, etc.

We get 15mpg around town no extra gear with the Sequoia road trips packed to the hilt with the 4x6 trailer rigged tall sides up with boat racked on the top and lots of extra stuff on the trailer floor we generally run 17mpg. I wouldn't say the Sequoia is a power monster for towing I would personally be keeping it as light as possible if I were going RV trailer. Rpod - Livin lite 18footers etc sub 4000lbs would be ideal in my book. I towed a big 21foot master craft direct drive ski boat with ours a few times friend of the family's boat. That boat is HEAVY! All up its probably around 6000lbs the Sequoia was working hard even at 5000lbs I could see it being a bit of a haul effort for the Sequoia sweating hot temps and a climb etc.

The nissan Armada has been ripped 5 ways to Sunday on where it falls flat everything from lousy mileage, to brake system being too lightly built etc. I wouldn't touch it wouldn't even put on my list.

The Yukon is a nice machine and they sell thousands of them so good chance of finding a clean well cared for one. My only gripe is having a fuel pump fail during a trip in one that resulted in 3hrs under the truck in Elko NV replacing a cooked fuel pump.

 

[Martinjmpr]

I replaced our 93 LC with a 07 Sequoia back in 2011. It had 64,000 miles on it original owner piles of Dealer paper and history etc, paid 21K for it. My thoughts are this I like the Sequoia but the only reason I bought it was for butts in seats capability I see it as our Minivan with proper tires and a spare tire with true 4x4 capability and decent towing capacity. If it were just the wife and I? I would go pickup with a FWC on it. Here is why...

#1 I like sailing I can't tow our tent trailer or RV trailer and a sailboat at the same time
#1.5 - if all we are doing is camping there are lots of locations where I would like to camp that trailers are not allowed
#1.55 - If we roll into a busy fun little town the pickup with camper is much much much easier to find parking for!

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A pickup is not an option for a number of reasons. A crew cab pickup (even with a short bed) likely won't fit into my garage and a non-crewcab won't seat enough people. A pickup with a camper would be redundant since we have a travel trailer.
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The more I think about it the more I'm thinking a 1st gen Sequoia might have to be what I'm looking for. The 2nd gens are too big, too pricey and just too ugly for me to consider. I'd like to get something that's newer than 2010 or so but there just doesn't seem to be that much out there in my price range. It's surprising, considering the "Toyota Tax" that Sequoia's are, relatively speaking, so affordable. It's actually pretty easy to find one for around $8k. Those typically have north of 160,000 miles on them but they Toyotas, they last a long time.
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EDITED TO ADD: One of the drawbacks, in my mind, to the 1st gen Sequoia is that I'm not a fan of column-shift transmissions. However after our last long trip, with the wife using her computer and with cables for GPS, phone, computer, and refrigerator snaking across the center console, I started to see the wisdom of the column shift.

 

[calicamper]

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A pickup is not an option for a number of reasons. A crew cab pickup (even with a short bed) likely won't fit into my garage and a non-crewcab won't seat enough people. A pickup with a camper would be redundant since we have a travel trailer.
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The more I think about it the more I'm thinking a 1st gen Sequoia might have to be what I'm looking for. The 2nd gens are too big, too pricey and just too ugly for me to consider. I'd like to get something that's newer than 2010 or so but there just doesn't seem to be that much out there in my price range. It's surprising, considering the "Toyota Tax" that Sequoia's are, relatively speaking, so affordable. It's actually pretty easy to find one for around $8k. Those typically have north of 160,000 miles on them but they Toyotas, they last a long time.
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EDITED TO ADD: One of the drawbacks, in my mind, to the 1st gen Sequoia is that I'm not a fan of column-shift transmissions. However after our last long trip, with the wife using her computer and with cables for GPS, phone, computer, and refrigerator snaking across the center console, I started to see the wisdom of the column shift.

Well I hate the car center console shifter being put in trucks given as you pointed out it takes up precious space and I don't care how good you are you will always as some point need to look down to check that you put the damn thing in the right spot vs the column shifter your eyes never leave the forward looking position which when towing and backing and getting through tight spots can be the difference between dinging up a trailer or bumper and not. LOL

If you need butts in seats ability and the tightest package that fits into the garage then yes the first gen Sequoia is a tough one to pass up thats why I have one. I met a guy that was managing a fleet of Toyotas running the 4.7v8 in Alaska he said they get 350,000 reliable miles out of it with god knows how much idle time given up there they idle them for hours on end. He did say the full TB water pump service is critical to keeping it happy outside of that its just the basics. Pretty sure our Sequoia will far far far out last our interest in owning it thats for sure. The AT's never seem to get any sort of comment about issue just gets the job done and I have yet to hear of anyone breaking it.

I think Toyota sold lots of the first Gen Sequoias so if your picky and take your time you can find a nice one. They were not cheap new so if you find a single owner one chances are its been well cared for by someone who had the funds to keep it serviced etc. My 07 only has 82,000 on it ;-)
Keep in mind the full curtain airbags first showed up in the 07's - so you may find that there is a price jump between 06's and 07's I noticed this when I was looking.

 

[Martinjmpr]

I think Toyota sold lots of the first Gen Sequoias so if your picky and take your time you can find a nice one. They were not cheap new so if you find a single owner one chances are its been well cared for by someone who had the funds to keep it serviced etc. My 07 only has 82,000 on it ;-)
Keep in mind the full curtain airbags first showed up in the 07's - so you may find that there is a price jump between 06's and 07's I noticed this when I was looking.

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One of the other pluses about SUV vs Truck is that in my experience trucks tend to be used (and often abused) and usually have high miles and lots of wear-and-tear. SUVs like the 4runner and Sequoia, OTOH, are almost always soccer-mom mobiles that have low miles and have probably never been off road. Biggest hazard there is a T-case that won't go into 4x4 or won't go into low range and that's something you can find out on a test drive - either it works or it doesn't.
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I'm surprised nobody has chimed in about the Expedition. I see those things everywhere but know absolutely nothing about them. I know they have IRS which doesn't thrill me and they seem to sit very low. I guess there are a couple of different V8s but, again, I don't know which are the good ones and which ones to avoid. Nice thing about the Toyota 4.7 is that it has been around for a long time.

 

[calicamper]

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One of the other pluses about SUV vs Truck is that in my experience trucks tend to be used (and often abused) and usually have high miles and lots of wear-and-tear. SUVs like the 4runner and Sequoia, OTOH, are almost always soccer-mom mobiles that have low miles and have probably never been off road. Biggest hazard there is a T-case that won't go into 4x4 or won't go into low range and that's something you can find out on a test drive - either it works or it doesn't.
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I'm surprised nobody has chimed in about the Expedition. I see those things everywhere but know absolutely nothing about them. I know they have IRS which doesn't thrill me and they seem to sit very low. I guess there are a couple of different V8s but, again, I don't know which are the good ones and which ones to avoid. Nice thing about the Toyota 4.7 is that it has been around for a long time.

I recall faintly that the Expedition can sport larger tires in stock form than the Gen1 Sequoia and I think you can get a rear locker on or can get a 3rd party kit to put one on the Expedition which the Sequoia has a funny sized rear end and its not an easy or cost effective option to put a locker on it. The newer GEN Sequoia gets around the locker issue with the newer smarter traction hunting system which will brake the spun wheel thus pushing power across the open diff to the other side which case it does pretty good from what folks have reported. My 07 in a crossed up situation will just spin and go no place, been there done that.

And if fitting in the Garage is a must the Expedition is a sizable step up in size over the Gen1 Sequoia. So that may kill it on your list.

 

[shmabs]

Martin,

You may want to query Mike Hiscox about his first gen sequoia. I'm not sure how much experience he as towing with it, but the man has owned quite a few vehicles and could probably give you some good insight.

Mike

 

[Martinjmpr]

And if fitting in the Garage is a must the Expedition is a sizable step up in size over the Gen1 Sequoia. So that may kill it on your list.

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I don't think that's true of all Expeditions. There are two lengths of Expeditions, one is the equivalent of a Tahoe (shorter) and the other the equivalent of a Suburban (longer.) I think the longer one is called the EL (Extended Length?)

 

[kojackJKU]

get the Tahoe Z71. I have the suburban and its a great large rig. And it can be had for reasonable costs and parts are cheap and easily sourced.

 

[Wilbah]

I will ditto the yukon/tahoe. I have 240k miles on mine and have towed a 24 foot trailer from east coast to AZ and back....done the alpine loop (w/o trailer ha) and off road through ME, VT, NH in comfort with 3 kids and a GSD. I love it and would buy another in a heartbeat if I continued to need this much room. Is the fuel pump an issue? Yep. Are there some dash issues electrically? Yep. But other than that and brakes the only other thing I've replaced was a front bearing assembly one time. Did I say 240k miles? It's an '04 and has been a workhorse for me and the family. And you should have no problem finding a suitable mall crawler used among the soccer mom crowd. Good luck!

 

[kojackJKU]

Yeah, I have a front bearing going out now, but that's after 5 years of having a heavy plow on the front. I don't trash it but I use it as intended. The plow comes off next week. Then its on to fixing some stuff on it like the two pieces of cladding that got ripped off during plowing.

 

[4x4x4doors]

To answer the "how the auto 4wd works" question on the Tahoe/Yukon: Up until the last couple of years, the auto position engaged the t-case in 4hi range but left the front wheels axle not engaged. The ABS sensors would alert to slippage and then engage the front axle/wheels as needed. (May still work that way, I just don't know what the stability control of the last few years may have changed.)

Weak spots on them included the ball joints (which my personal theory is largely caused by auto-tech/lube techs not bothering to reach the zerk fitting since it took a little effort and thus time). North American parts availability is extensive. The 4L80E is strong but is susceptible to excessive heat after 150K miles. Too many trailers getting pulled in hills in OD. A good cooler and smart care will address that. "Cheap" interiors are a matter of opinion, you'll need to look and decide for yourself.

My limited experience with Expeditions is with the older ones with the solid rear axle. The auto trans vent in the early ones was low and susceptible to sucking water/mud. Can't address the auto 4wd or other performance issues. Similar drivetrain to the F150.

I'm also of the opinion that console mounted automatic shifters is not a positive. For manuals, yes. For an automatic, why? Takes up space, potential for getting bumped inadvertently by driver or passenger and takes up limited space that is often used for comms or other gear.

 

[rayra]

Tahoe with the tow package. Lot of rom inside, capable vehicle. Will fit in the garage. Newer model Z-71 roof rack might make it too tall for a tip-up garage door.

 

[Martinjmpr]

Tahoe with the tow package. Lot of rom inside, capable vehicle. Will fit in the garage. Newer model Z-71 roof rack might make it too tall for a tip-up garage door.

get the Tahoe Z71. I have the suburban and its a great large rig. And it can be had for reasonable costs and parts are cheap and easily sourced.

What's in the Z71 package besides a lot of **************' stickers?