Odyssey vs. Diehard Platinum
- Thread starter adventureduo
- Start date
remote camper
Observer
I know...the links I try to save for quick access stop working frequently. This is the only one I can rely on and have to (re) drill down from there. Sometimes I even have to go back to simply sears.com. Keep an eye on Sears, they might not be around much longer. Have been trying to stay on top of who might pick up the Platinum business. It think it was this time of year 3 years ago, that I got a great deal on mine. I ordered them while sitting in the Sears parking lot to get the "online only" price!
http://www.sears.com/automotive/b-1020005
Last edited:
dstock
Explorer
New thread for those that want to follow along with my issue...
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/135771-National-Luna-Split-Charge-System-Charging-Issues
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/135771-National-Luna-Split-Charge-System-Charging-Issues
wrcsixeight
Adventurer
I think I'll take the advice of an Odyssey engineer over somebody who equates a sulfated battery with a rusted battery. They have an Indepth charging PDF specifying a 40% charge rate on a depleted battery for maximum performance and longevity, but it is to be disregarded on your say so?
Do you even own one of these thin plate AGM batteries? No, you deeply cycle the cheapest starting batteries you can find and give condescending replies as if everybody is a drooling knuckle dragger, and only you understand these things.
I am going to remove this bookmark and no longer visit here. I didn't come here to argue, but to enlighten about a subject I am intimately familiar with, and I find your advice, your tone and your general demeanor to be disagreeable, and cannot be bothered with the aggravation of dealing with someone who always has to be right, even when they are far from.
Some people just stoke the fires of my misanthropy. I bet many people who deal with you on a regular basis feel the same.
Good bye and good riddance,
Best of luck to the rest of you, and may your batteries approach full charge as often as possible.
Do you even own one of these thin plate AGM batteries? No, you deeply cycle the cheapest starting batteries you can find and give condescending replies as if everybody is a drooling knuckle dragger, and only you understand these things.
I am going to remove this bookmark and no longer visit here. I didn't come here to argue, but to enlighten about a subject I am intimately familiar with, and I find your advice, your tone and your general demeanor to be disagreeable, and cannot be bothered with the aggravation of dealing with someone who always has to be right, even when they are far from.
Some people just stoke the fires of my misanthropy. I bet many people who deal with you on a regular basis feel the same.
Good bye and good riddance,
Best of luck to the rest of you, and may your batteries approach full charge as often as possible.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
That's a mis-characterization of me and is totally wrong.
I buy cheap deep cycle batteries for aux use and deeply cycle THEM. I deliberately beat them to death and replace them every couple of years.
I've stated several times what when it comes to the *starting* battery I buy good quality and do not abuse those.
I'm certainly many things, but a redneck I ain't.
With the camper I have at the moment, I use flooded batteries because it's 2WD and is not going to be in what pilots would call "unusual attitudes". Flooded batteries are easier to check, test and maintain, so when they are appropriate to the application, that's what I use. If it were appropriate to use AGM, or TPPL AGM, then that is what I would buy.
I recently replaced both the cranking and deep cycle batteries in my camper. I bought them at O'Reilly. Doing my homework I found that they sell a matched set (though they don't call it that or make any mention of it). Two Group 31 batteries, identical except that one is a cranking battery and one is a deep cycle.
I further found, that they actually have two different part numbers for those batteries. The difference is one has a "J" at the end. I suspected, and then confirmed, that the difference is that the batteries with the "J" in the part number are made in Mexico by Johnson Controls. It turned out the batteries without the "J" are made in the U.S. by Enersys.
They don't carry the Enersys part number on the shelves. To get them, I had to go to the store, "order" the part numbers I wanted and pay for them, then wait a week for them to be delivered to the store. They listed them on the web site for the same price, though in the store the price was a bit higher for the Enersys. So I paid the extra.
Before I replaced the batteries, I decided to test deslufation for myself. There is very little actual data on net regarding desulfation. All manufacturers of desulfators claim that it works, but that has to be discounted. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence, about evenly split between, "works great" and "doesn't do jack". Examples of both can be found in this very thread.
So I bought a charger that does desulfation, and spent a month testing it on an old beatup deep cycle that I had laying around for a core.
It didn't bring back that dead battery. Not all the way. Not even close. But it did improve it. A LOT.
So now I've added desulfation to my routine.
For the record, my last cranking battery was also a flooded battery, and I got the same 6 years out of it that teotwaki got out of his Diehard Platinum. That battery never had any special treatment, other than being recharged a couple of times with a charger when I left the headlights on overnight. It was maintained the entire six years purely by the truck's charging system, which does nothing except hold 14.5v at above idle RPM. Of course, being a flooded battery, I was able to check and top off the water, and also use a hydrometer to check specific gravity.
And it was still working fine - I simply decided six years was enough and since I had to replace the aux battery anyway, I did both.
Bailing on a forum with 100,000+ members just because you butt heads with one of them seems a bit of an over-reaction to me. There is after all an ignore feature. I personally wouldn't use it, because I like butting heads, but to each his own.
In this "Overland" community, there is a tendency to over-build, and over-buy. People want "the best". I'll leave off with a quote from Stephen Stewart:
"Other things being equal a big leisure battery (or more probably several batteries) is a good thing. But leisure batteries are very heavy and expensive. Conventional wisdom has it that you should always use special leisure batteries in your campervan. These are made to withstand being heavily discharged whereas ordinary vehicle batteries are not.
If you have a good three/four stage charging system (from the alternator, the mains and from solar) then it is certainly true that leisure batteries (i.e. Deep-Cycle, Traction, Gel or AGM batteries) will perform far better than vehicle batteries, but at a very significant cost. However if you have a poor charging system and routinely abuse your batteries the benefit of proper "leisure" batteries is less certain. Leisure batteries are also impossible to find in many "overland travel" countries.
Towards the end of one journey my expensive, four year old leisure batteries failed (both of them). I replaced them with four very cheap (25 Euros) Russian car batteries. They work well enough to get me home without freezing. I think in any future overland campervan design I would make sure the area allocated to leisure batteries was sufficiently large and flexible to allow the use of say four or six car batteries in emergency."
http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/equipment/choosevan.htm
BigSwede
The Credible Hulk
That is my understanding as well. I am also hoping somebody has that figured by the time I need it. My Platinum is less than a year old, so with any luck it will be a few years at least before I need something else.
http://starkpower.com/ has a lot of info on LiFePO4 batteries and charging.
teotwaki
Excelsior!
I did that too! I ordered on my phone and then the guy at the cash terminal pulled up the order and I walked out of the store with a battery at the online price.
teotwaki
Excelsior!
No, it is not "butting heads" and it is mendacious to pretend it to be so. However it is correct that there may well be 99,000 other forum members that are more amicable :ylsmoke:.
Please, your reply is predictable. You've already subjected the thread to a fresh 3,000 word diatribe splashed across ten posts. No more for 2014. Let the word battery be stricken from your forum search engine..... at least until the new year has arrived.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
No, it's not. He and I started butting heads a while back on different thread over a different subject.
No problem. Ask and ye shall receive.
remote camper
Observer
In another thread that grew out of this one on the National Luna system a few posts back by dstock on under charging issues, I made a factually incorrect statement or two about why the Platinum needed 14.7 volts in its absorption stage. So when the error was pointed out I had to go back the Odyssey Technical Manual and refresh my memory. So, it seemed the right thing to do was to bring it back here as well.
So why the 14.7 volts ???? Page 16 of the Tech Manual describes the impact of raising charging voltage from 14.2 to 14.7 volts, again for deep cycling applications. In their words, "The message to be taken from this graph is clear – in deep cycling applications it is important to have the charge voltage set at 14.4 – 15.0V. A nominal setting of 14.7V is a good choice, as shown by the test results."
My focus on 14.7 volts absorption, 13.6 float and them living above 12.84 volts for the Platinums has always been in the context of maximum life (and as it relates to deep cycling) and that still holds true. So, in reading the entire section on Charging Odyssey Batteries, you will find a lot of latitude for charging (absorption) voltages. You will also see how those voltages relate to automotive charging systems. As the TM states, 14.7 volts is a good choice (and not a REQUIRED choice).
But not only is it a good choice, it is Enersys' (mfr of the Odyssey and Platinum) choice for absorption voltage to obtain maximum life. It is the voltage that their Ultimizers are set to deliver in absorption stage and the voltage that is shown on their charge profiles. In my post(s), while I erred with statements like 14.7v being needed to "overcome internal battery resistance", I stand corrected. I may be wrong on a few other statements as well. I also stated not to rely on my word but to consult Odyssey, as I could be wrong. What I'm not wrong on is what these batteries need for maximum life. Any questions about that shouldn't be taken up with me, but with the Odyssey engineering dept.
For those of you who are not interested in obtaining maximum life of the Odyssey battery but still want to stay with them, you obviously have greater lattitude in charging them and will likely be happy with replacing them more frequently. That is now closer to a personal choice based on what you know about them and not something that comes as a surprise to you when they fail or if their performance starts dropping earlier than you think it should.
There will be others that don't want to go down the road of a special charger and would possibly rather go back to flooded batteries or not even try the Odyssey/Platinum. At least you can do that because you know more about these batteries, too.
Many Odyssey/Platinum owners become frustrated under these circumstances and understandably so. We treat them just like any other battery and then wonder why the fail early. When it comes to discussing charging practices used before failure, the response is usually that no one told us about the special charging needs to obtain maximum life. I've read of similar issues with the Optimas. Early on with Lifelines, too because the owners were deep cycling them to 50% DOD on their sailboats and recharging them only to 80% SOC. That was the old rule of thumb for flooded deep cycle batteries.
The next question is why are these batteries marketed to us when our vehicle charging systems might not be up to the task? Another might be why are the special charging needs (for maximum life) buried in a technical publication on the manufacturer's web site instead of being brought up before buying? Whether it is an act of commission or deliberate ommission I can't say. All I can say is that for any battery, unless you really know what you're doing, you are best served by following the battery manufacturer's recommendations. You need to follow suit in the charger dept as well. For that you have to get on the internet and possibly even the phone. Reputable battery manufacturers for expeditioners and adventurers will have the information you need to avoid being stranded by what you didn't know about their products.
These batteries are expensive and have their merits. I have come to appreciate those merits and manage the needs of these batteries accordingly. I am not a battery expert and while my aging brain will forget or misstate the why of what needs to be done to get maximum life from them, I don't have the problems others do because I follow the manufacturer's recommendations.
I am going to leave you with a few numbers for the Platinums:
1) 40% of the battery's amp/hour capacity for recharging deep cycled batteries. I can't remember if it's the C10 or C20 rate. A good reason for you to download the Owner's Manual and Tech Manual for the Platinums from the Odyssey website.
2) 14.7 volts absorption for best life. It's the absorption voltage shown in the charge profiles in all their refernce materials for the Platinum line and the voltage their Ultimizers are set at to obtain maximum life. The low end here would be 14.4 volts. It will be slower. You MIGHT get away with the (lesser e.g., alternator) voltage within the range Odyssey specifies as long as the battery is not deep cycled, even unintentionally.
3) 13.6 float voltage- the voltage to maintain a fully charged battery.
4) a living voltage above 12.84 volts. They don't need to be on a float charger all the time. But when resting battery voltage drops below 12.84 volts, you need to be thinking about getting them on an Odyssey approved charger.
5) 15 volts and above- a voltage that the Platinum should never see. It will cause the Platinum to gas through it vents and lose electrolyte. You can expect diminished performance from that point on. It's sealed, you can't add water.
So why the 14.7 volts ???? Page 16 of the Tech Manual describes the impact of raising charging voltage from 14.2 to 14.7 volts, again for deep cycling applications. In their words, "The message to be taken from this graph is clear – in deep cycling applications it is important to have the charge voltage set at 14.4 – 15.0V. A nominal setting of 14.7V is a good choice, as shown by the test results."
My focus on 14.7 volts absorption, 13.6 float and them living above 12.84 volts for the Platinums has always been in the context of maximum life (and as it relates to deep cycling) and that still holds true. So, in reading the entire section on Charging Odyssey Batteries, you will find a lot of latitude for charging (absorption) voltages. You will also see how those voltages relate to automotive charging systems. As the TM states, 14.7 volts is a good choice (and not a REQUIRED choice).
But not only is it a good choice, it is Enersys' (mfr of the Odyssey and Platinum) choice for absorption voltage to obtain maximum life. It is the voltage that their Ultimizers are set to deliver in absorption stage and the voltage that is shown on their charge profiles. In my post(s), while I erred with statements like 14.7v being needed to "overcome internal battery resistance", I stand corrected. I may be wrong on a few other statements as well. I also stated not to rely on my word but to consult Odyssey, as I could be wrong. What I'm not wrong on is what these batteries need for maximum life. Any questions about that shouldn't be taken up with me, but with the Odyssey engineering dept.
For those of you who are not interested in obtaining maximum life of the Odyssey battery but still want to stay with them, you obviously have greater lattitude in charging them and will likely be happy with replacing them more frequently. That is now closer to a personal choice based on what you know about them and not something that comes as a surprise to you when they fail or if their performance starts dropping earlier than you think it should.
There will be others that don't want to go down the road of a special charger and would possibly rather go back to flooded batteries or not even try the Odyssey/Platinum. At least you can do that because you know more about these batteries, too.
Many Odyssey/Platinum owners become frustrated under these circumstances and understandably so. We treat them just like any other battery and then wonder why the fail early. When it comes to discussing charging practices used before failure, the response is usually that no one told us about the special charging needs to obtain maximum life. I've read of similar issues with the Optimas. Early on with Lifelines, too because the owners were deep cycling them to 50% DOD on their sailboats and recharging them only to 80% SOC. That was the old rule of thumb for flooded deep cycle batteries.
The next question is why are these batteries marketed to us when our vehicle charging systems might not be up to the task? Another might be why are the special charging needs (for maximum life) buried in a technical publication on the manufacturer's web site instead of being brought up before buying? Whether it is an act of commission or deliberate ommission I can't say. All I can say is that for any battery, unless you really know what you're doing, you are best served by following the battery manufacturer's recommendations. You need to follow suit in the charger dept as well. For that you have to get on the internet and possibly even the phone. Reputable battery manufacturers for expeditioners and adventurers will have the information you need to avoid being stranded by what you didn't know about their products.
These batteries are expensive and have their merits. I have come to appreciate those merits and manage the needs of these batteries accordingly. I am not a battery expert and while my aging brain will forget or misstate the why of what needs to be done to get maximum life from them, I don't have the problems others do because I follow the manufacturer's recommendations.
I am going to leave you with a few numbers for the Platinums:
1) 40% of the battery's amp/hour capacity for recharging deep cycled batteries. I can't remember if it's the C10 or C20 rate. A good reason for you to download the Owner's Manual and Tech Manual for the Platinums from the Odyssey website.
2) 14.7 volts absorption for best life. It's the absorption voltage shown in the charge profiles in all their refernce materials for the Platinum line and the voltage their Ultimizers are set at to obtain maximum life. The low end here would be 14.4 volts. It will be slower. You MIGHT get away with the (lesser e.g., alternator) voltage within the range Odyssey specifies as long as the battery is not deep cycled, even unintentionally.
3) 13.6 float voltage- the voltage to maintain a fully charged battery.
4) a living voltage above 12.84 volts. They don't need to be on a float charger all the time. But when resting battery voltage drops below 12.84 volts, you need to be thinking about getting them on an Odyssey approved charger.
5) 15 volts and above- a voltage that the Platinum should never see. It will cause the Platinum to gas through it vents and lose electrolyte. You can expect diminished performance from that point on. It's sealed, you can't add water.
Last edited:
teotwaki
Excelsior!
My DH-Platinum was installed in my fairly stock Toyota 4Runner in March of 2009. It receives whatever the alternator puts out which is likely to be the same old way every other lead acid battery is charged. In fact, the stock Toyota battery was a Panasonic wet cell manufactured in Japan and it was about 4.5 years old when I took it out. I never let my starting battery be deep cycled by leaving headlights or other things on so maybe that is part of the answer: The battery is used like a stating battery and recharged well enough to replenish the losses.
Where I had a problem was keeping a deep cycled Optima happy in a car's charging environment. The trick was to place a CTEK 250s Dual charger in-between the alternator and the deep cycle battery. Before that I always had to use an external charger on the Optima (a brand I no longer purchase)
I used to have a smart charger from Vector that died last year. I replaced that one with a Samlex (SEC-1215) that DWH spoke of but it seems nonaggressive when it comes to supplying very much charge current. It is built like a tank and can charge multiple batteries as well as being fairly cheap. My opinion of it is still somewhat neutral.
Where I had a problem was keeping a deep cycled Optima happy in a car's charging environment. The trick was to place a CTEK 250s Dual charger in-between the alternator and the deep cycle battery. Before that I always had to use an external charger on the Optima (a brand I no longer purchase)
I used to have a smart charger from Vector that died last year. I replaced that one with a Samlex (SEC-1215) that DWH spoke of but it seems nonaggressive when it comes to supplying very much charge current. It is built like a tank and can charge multiple batteries as well as being fairly cheap. My opinion of it is still somewhat neutral.
remote camper
Observer
Generally, I have had very good service from OEM flooded Japanese starting batteries. I believe the one in our Subaru lasted 6 years or so. On the US side, the OEM ones in the Powerstroke, lasted 7 years! The weaknesses started showing up in AZ high country's sub zero winters. It was after that I started looking at Optimas and eventually ran across the Platinums. Comparing the specs I found out they looked suspiciously close to the Odyssey. That's when I called Odyssey and found they were produced on the same production line in different cases. From there, I downloaded all of there technical info and spoke with their engineering folks before buying.
While looking at the Optimas, they were getting a bad rap for failing. I believe the company was sold and many thought quality had just gone to h3ll. After having studied on the Odyssey, my guess was they were failing for the same reasons. Looking at the Optimas closer, the Red Top seemed to be failing more frequently. Turns out the RT was not a dual service (starting/deep cycle) yet many were trying to use it as one. The Yellow Top and Blue tops went more down the deep cycle road but were also failing. That's when I noticed that the charge profile for the YT and Blue Tops were similar to the Odyssey and that number of 14.7 volts kept popping up in the Optima literature. Later Optima offered to extend their warranty by 1 year if you bought their charger with the battery. The charger was kind of shrouded in mystery from a written spec standpoint, but my guess is that it was operating about the same as the Ultimizer. The charger was expensive (way more than Odyssey's Ultimizer) and the Odyssey/Platinums had better specs and a better rep. So, I decided on Platinums.
It all boiled down to the same thing- knowing what you're buying and how to care for it. As much as it might want to be denied, keeping an AGM happy can be a real challenge. They're not all the same. Some think that going to a $100 AGM will get them the same thing as a $250 AGM. It won't!
You can almost tell what you're getting by how much they weigh! You're not going to get the same service from a 50 lb Group 65 as you would from a 60 lb Group 65! (don't hold me to those weights!) While some are rated for both starting/deep cycle service, many are not. Deep cycling "starting only" rated AGMs will kill them fast and no fancy charger is going to bring them back. Deep cycling an AGM without the correct charge profile will kill those, too. Relying on the sales people to educate you is a really risky choice. The only way to be sure is to get with the manufacturer. If a mfr says their charger is a single bank, that's what it is...and for a reason. If you're going deviate from their charger recommendations, you have to know what you're doing. Some "multi-bank" chargers use diodes to isolate the batteries. That reduces the charge voltage because of the voltage drop across the diodes. The Ultimizer multi-banks don't do that. I would avoid like the plague a mfr that won't or can't provide detailed information on the specifications and charge profiles for their batteries/chargers.
Anyway, I just hope folks can get things sorted out and can go expeditioning and adventuring knowing what to expect from their batteries, especially if it's an Odyssey product. That's what I have now and that's where my experience is. Sharing it is what the forum is for.
dwh
Tail-End Charlie
I spoke of it because I was planning to buy one. Still never have gotten around to it though, so I would appreciate any real-world review of it that you can provide.
Not recommended?
spressomon
Expedition Leader
FWIW I've had very good performance from my Odyssey batteries in both slots. I use a dual bank Powermania Turbo M Series battery charger, one of the "approved/recommended" battery chargers from Odyssey, when my 100 is parked at home more than a couple days.
After having very bad and exacerbating experiences with Exide Orbital batteries I was able to, on three separate occasions, return them after they failed to hold a charge, under the warranty (9-18 months) via then Kragen Auto Parts store. My then travels took us into remote places and given my propensity to act like a Baja 1000 contestant at times (I've since gone through "counseling" and drive more mundanely now
) I convinced myself the entry price for the Odyssey's was worth the peace of mind and consolation: So far that decision has proved to be the right one for me...
I got almost 5-years out of the overtaxed Odyssey PC1230 that served as my auxiliary battery. The PC1500, purchased and installed at the same time as the PC1230 served in my starting/OEM position, was moved to the auxiliary position 2-years ago (when the PC1230 died) and replaced with an Odyssey PC2150 Group 31 (steel case). So knock on wood the PC1500 is now over 7-years old and performing perfectly.
I've also owned and had great results with 4 group 31 Lifeline batteries. These were used in my then AT Horizon and Kimberley Kamper trailers, however Lifeline doesn't offer case sizes commensurate to what I need in my 100-Series.
After having very bad and exacerbating experiences with Exide Orbital batteries I was able to, on three separate occasions, return them after they failed to hold a charge, under the warranty (9-18 months) via then Kragen Auto Parts store. My then travels took us into remote places and given my propensity to act like a Baja 1000 contestant at times (I've since gone through "counseling" and drive more mundanely now
) I convinced myself the entry price for the Odyssey's was worth the peace of mind and consolation: So far that decision has proved to be the right one for me...I got almost 5-years out of the overtaxed Odyssey PC1230 that served as my auxiliary battery. The PC1500, purchased and installed at the same time as the PC1230 served in my starting/OEM position, was moved to the auxiliary position 2-years ago (when the PC1230 died) and replaced with an Odyssey PC2150 Group 31 (steel case). So knock on wood the PC1500 is now over 7-years old and performing perfectly.
I've also owned and had great results with 4 group 31 Lifeline batteries. These were used in my then AT Horizon and Kimberley Kamper trailers, however Lifeline doesn't offer case sizes commensurate to what I need in my 100-Series.
Last edited: