Warranty claims on a pop-up camper

[gregdee]

I have searched but cannot find any direct information on how one goes about making a warranty claim on a pop-up truck camper that was purchased new and is still within the specified time frame. For four and a half years now I have been fighting with my camper manufacturer trying to convince them there is a structural defect in my camper. I have never been able to keep the camper securely fastened in the bed of my truck. Upon leaving the manufacturers site it took all of five minutes driving down city streets before the tie down system (turn buckles) they had installed was loose. As we were already delayed by half a day I was in a hurry to get on the road and never imagined all the problems that would ensue. I should have turned around immediately but didn't. But ever since then I have had issues. The primary one is that the camper moves around in bed of truck so I replaced the turn buckle system with Fast Guns about 6 months after I bought it. When securing the tie downs the side wall of the camper visibly compresses. To me this is an indication that the frame is compromised. The issues have continued over the years. Two interior doors - bath and one cabinet - will not shut without the Happijac feet on the ground supporting the camper from the four corners rather than it sitting in the bed of the truck. The bottom of the fridge visibly sticks out an inch or more than the top. The fasteners near the bottom are clearly visible and one can see that they are not securing the bottom of the fridge. And now the side windows have separated from the exterior wall and the manufacturers response to that is a garbage truck must have hit it.

I hesitate to post pictures or name a brand because my intent is not to tarnish the companies name. What I would like to know is how does one go about convincing a manufacturer that the unit they sold is defective and requires work that should be covered under warranty. In this case the warranty statement is a 5 year structural one. I believe there is a structural issue.

When I discuss my issues with them all I get is incredulous laughter and claims by them that I must be abusing the camper some how. This has been going on for years and now the camper is all but unusable. I know what I have put this camper through and I do not consider driving down graded forest service roads to be abuse, especially when this particular brand is marketed as an off-road camper and has been shown at the Overland Expo by the manufacturer to be driving through much nastier terrain than I have ever been in.

Any advice on how to proceed or stories of ones own experience would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[1stDeuce]

I'll give you a few thoughts based on my experiences with my older truck camper.

Campers DO move around a little in the truck bed, particularly after you first put them in, or if you travel over rough roads, and also if you're not running a rubber mat. (I don't give a crap what everyone else says, not running a rubber mat is really dumb in my experience, unless you're bolting the camper to the floor, which is also fairly ill advised if you take your truck offroad.) Mine always creeps forward a little from where I drop it, just until it is resting firmly against the front of the bed. As with most short box trucks running longer campers, both sets of chains pull forward on my truck, the rears quite a bit forward, so that's going to happen. After a few hundred miles, I get very little subsequent loosening of the tie downs unless I go down steep hills on really twisty trails, and usually a little driving on flat ground will result it in the chains getting tight again as the bumpers push the camper back into it's normal position.

I'm not terribly familiar with the Quick Guns, but if you are trying to hold the camper firmly in place by running the tie-downs super tight, you very well may have structural damage as a result! The tie down rings are mounted to wood in older campers, light aluminum in some, and composite in others. Go easy on the tie downs! They're intended to keep the camper IN the truck bed, not to keep it from occasionally moving a bit, especially when off road, and even more so if it's sitting on the painted truck bed, which is pretty slick! They also need to give a little when offroad. Older campers were flexy, but some of the newer ones are fairly rigid. Having the tie downs so tight that they force the camper to flex with the truck frame will NOT do it any favors!

In my opinion, a few of the issues you describe do suggest poor quality of assembly, but not necessarily a structural defect, or defective unit. Cabinet door hinges and latches can be adjusted, and usually do require periodic adjustment anyway. That's likely all that's wrong with them. The fridge should be re-mounted properly so it isn't tipped back as much, and that's on the manufacturer. The manufacturer should also definitely look into the windows coming loose... If it's just bad installation, that should be covered under warranty.

I've met the guys at the manufacturer that I think produced your camper. They're honest and good guys, and the do a fair job of standing behind their product. But they have a clue, and if you go in spouting off about all the issues on your "defective unit", they're likely to be fairly put off, and tell you to get lost. Nobody else is reporting similar issues, so ask them why your windows are coming loose, and have them look into the fridge mounting and correct it, and they'll be much more receptive to helping you out. Perhaps they'd even be willing to do you a "favor" and align a few cabinet doors while they're at it if you're not into doing that sort of thing.

Be nice, be courteous, and insist that they're the best place to rectify these issues, which is why you keep coming back. (Even just a little sucking up can go a long way toward helping your case!) If there really was an impact with a garbage truck, and they believe your issues are related, they're probably not going to warranty repair work. You'll need to have them provide an estimate for repair of the resulting issues, and you'll have to take it up with your insurance company. I should not think the fridge or cabinet doors would be part of that. If there was no accident, then politely tell them it's a lot of manure, and tell them you'd prefer a more believable explanation.

Worst case, have an RV place do a bit of quick work to fix the issues it has if you're not so inclined, sell it, and move it on. But beware that all campers need occasional maintenance when they're used, and you're not likely to be a lot happier with another manufacturer if you're over-stressing the tie downs thinking that you'll keep it from moving around a little while you're offroad, especially if you're not running a mat of some kind to give it traction, or if you're driving the truck like it's rented.

Good luck!!

 

[FordGuy1]

What brand? how can anyone offer advice about your issue when we do not know what we are reading about. I run a mat with a FWC Grandy in a Superduty, beat the crap out of it and it never moves at all.

 

[1stDeuce]

BTW, this probably belongs in the Popup camper section, not the full size truck. You'd have gotten better response there... A moderator might be able to move it. ?
And my guess is that the OP has the same brand of camper that I do, based on an earlier post that I found...

 

[calicamper]

What brand? how can anyone offer advice about your issue when we do not know what we are reading about. I run a mat with a FWC Grandy in a Superduty, beat the crap out of it and it never moves at all.

Not all products are built with the same level of engineering as FWC thats for sure. The cheapie large mass production brands are well known for lousy warranty response and having lots of issues. I recall reading that the worst RV type products for this sort of thing were the small pop up tent trailers being absolutely horrible regarding having lots of issues and lots of warranty issues not being fixed etc. Drive by any big RV repair shop and take a mental note as to which brands you see lined up out the door for various repairs. It's pretty eye opening.

 

[FordGuy1]

Not all products are built with the same level of engineering as FWC thats for sure. The cheapie large mass production brands are well known for lousy warranty response and having lots of issues. I recall reading that the worst RV type products for this sort of thing were the small pop up tent trailers being absolutely horrible regarding having lots of issues and lots of warranty issues not being fixed etc. Drive by any big RV repair shop and take a mental note as to which brands you see lined up out the door for various repairs. It's pretty eye opening.

I agree but by the write up I don't know what type of camper it is

 

[1stDeuce]

Pretty sure he still has a Hallmark Ute. Which is not a line built piece of crap camper like many are, it's a pretty high end, high quality unit, and OP's is new enough to be constructed via composite panels.

I just re-read my first post, and the information is there, but I came off a bit more high horse than I would have liked... Just wanted to point out that campers do move some, and some people tend to overdo the tie downs to try to prevent it, which often causes more issues than it solves. Installers/manufacturers are as much to blame for not telling people to run a rubber mat if they're truck doesn't have a spray in liner, how to properly tension the tie downs, and what to expect. I don't know if that's the OP's case here or not, but the manufacturer should be able to provide guidance if asked.

I work as a customer service guy for one of my employers from time to time, when it's above the normal CS guy's head... (They keep it to a minimum, as engineers normally make HORRIBLE customer service reps because they tend to tell the truth...) I can tell you that if you treat me with some respect, and say how much you love the product, but that you have an issue that you believe needs some resolution, I'm much more likely to help you out in any way I can than if you open with "Your product is a totol POS and has serious design flaws". I designed it. I know where the flaws are when they exist. I know common problems, and their causes. I know the problems installers create. I know when a problem is a fluke, and when it's normal with a certain kind of misuse. A customer telling me how something has a problem that I know it doesn't just makes me tell them something other than "we'll take care of it". Many people do not understand this concept, so I try to point it out as often as I can. I did not mean to suggest that the OP hadn't used tact, or was somehow at fault for a lack of service, just that being nice, and sucking up a little go a lot farther than being a jerk about things. In re-reading his post, it sounds like the OP has been in constant contact with Hallmark... I would not expect them to put him off like it seems they have.

Look at it this way: When you attack someone's hard work, they usually take offense... When you ask them why you're having problems and others aren't, they usually are more than happy to help you discover why, and if that reveals a problem with their work, they're almost always more than happy to fix it. If it's a problem you created, at least you know not to do it again, and if you ask how you were supposed to know and they take note that they didn't tell you, they'll probably still fix it. Or at least that's how I operate.
YMMV...
Chris

 

[gregdee]

Some good information here. Thank you all for the candid responses.
So the cat is obviously out of the bag with regards to which model of camper I have. I will follow with a few more details.

I have a rubber mat. That was provided by Hallmark when I bought the camper. I also have a painted on bed liner, the thickest that was available.

I close the Fast Guns with a reasonable amount of force so they are snug but this is done with one hand. I have set them when they are loose and had to tighten up a couple of turns, likely due to camper shift. I think I have a good feel for what too much force feels like.

I will take the advice given here and continue to try to work with Bill and company to somehow arrive at a mutually agreeable solution. Seems that praise for the awesome product they build would be a great place to start.

 

[quickfarms]

How much movement are you talking about?

The truck will move and the frame will flex. If you attempt the securely fasten everything together it will tear itself apart.

The flat bed or box on a commercial truck can move when the truck flexes.

The container you see going down the highway on that chassis can move quite a bit. The fit of the container fitting into the corner casting is quite sloppy by design.

 

[gregdee]

There is enough flex that on occasion the hooks on the Fast Guns can come undone so that would be about an inch of vertical travel. I've turned the hooks around so they must fall towards the side of the truck instead of out from the truck. This has helped some but there is still enough room for the hooks to disengage and fly free. I could not keep the turn buckle system tight, even with red Loctite.

Using the cabinet and shower stall doors as a metric, when the camper is setting on the truck bed they are open and will not latch. The cabinet is all the way forward and the shower stall door is at the rear. When the camper is supported by the Happijac's and not sitting in the truck bed, all doors are securely latched. I suppose this is not much movement but it is on the order of half an inch at near-centerline (vertically and horizontally) of the camper. The folks at Hallmark aligned both of these in the past but the camper was sitting on their floor, out of the truck. One way to look at this is that these doors are still aligned to where they were aligned to a few years ago.

 

[gregdee]

I can tell you that if you treat me with some respect, and say how much you love the product, but that you have an issue that you believe needs some resolution, I'm much more likely to help you out in any way I can than if you open with "Your product is a totol POS and has serious design flaws".
Chris

I started here on the positive side but know that the dialog has been continuing for 4+ years now with no real resolution. I have made the 500+ mile drive (one way) back to their facility more than once and left thinking they fixed things, only to find no real change in performance. They think I am a crazy abusive nut who has totally recked the camper through misuse and negligence. I am having trouble getting past that sentiment. When I sent them pictures of the windows dislodged from the side of the camper the response was something about a dude buying a Jeep Cherokee and taking it on Hell's Revenge, followed by a statement of their hourly rates. The subsequent phone call involved laughter and the garbage truck supposition.

 

[redthies]

That's not good to hear. I really like Hallmarks product, but you're not the first person on here to complain about their customer service.

I just had a warranty issue with a set of tie down brackets I bought from Torklift. It took a few months to sort out (mainly due to me moving, and partly because their CS guy moved to a different department), but once I got in touch with them, they replaced the problem bracket, and sent me a set of four Fastguns as an apology! The Fastguns cost double what my original purchase did. Now THAT is how you get a loyal customer.

Gregdee, if your structural warranty is up in six months, I'd suggest (I really hate to!) you have a quick chat with a lawyer (or your state AG) about your options. If you have records showing all the issues and a timeline a well worded letter from a lawyer can work wonders! Please let us know how it turns out. I'd really like to think they will be fair in the end!

 

[ExpoMike]

I have to agree, time to get a lawer involved. If you have been able to document this problem and the manufacturer will not correct as part of their warranty, it will have to become a legal issue to resolve. Good luck.

 

[gregdee]

There is enough flex that on occasion the hooks on the Fast Guns can come undone so that would be about an inch of vertical travel. I've turned the hooks around so they must fall towards the side of the truck instead of out from the truck. This has helped some but there is still enough room for the hooks to disengage and fly free. I could not keep the turn buckle system tight, even with red Loctite.

Using the cabinet and shower stall doors as a metric, when the camper is setting on the truck bed they are open and will not latch. The cabinet is all the way forward and the shower stall door is at the rear. When the camper is supported by the Happijac's and not sitting in the truck bed, all doors are securely latched. I suppose this is not much movement but it is on the order of half an inch at near-centerline (vertically and horizontally) of the camper. The folks at Hallmark aligned both of these in the past but the camper was sitting on their floor, out of the truck. One way to look at this is that these doors are still aligned to where they were aligned to a few years ago.

Anyone have any comment on the movement I attempted to quantify in the post quoted above?

 

[Hopeless Diamond]

I have a new Hallmark (2015 K2, picked up Feb) and have so far not run into any real problems with it. During the purchase process the communication was tough at times, but in the end they did come through and everything was as ordered and discussed and came together as we had all planned. One thing I learned after using it and bouncing it a little was that their idea of tie down arrangement was wrong. They installed the Happijak in the front, then Torklift in the back. I agree with this 100% and it works well. Where the difference is, is with the Fastguns, there's sprung ones and solid. They said the sprung should go in the back and solid goes in front. After hitting an unseen rut a little hard and all of the fast guns came loose, the camper shifted, and the unsecured scissor steps bounced around and damaged the door, I figured something wasn't right. Turned out the bounce (at ~ 20 miles an hour) actually bent an overload spring bracket, pretty good for a '12 F350 well under it's weight limit. Reading here and other forums, talking to Torklift, swapped the Fastguns to solid in the back, sprung in the front, no problem since.

I can see how with their typical arrangement could cause problems. In a dynamic environment like a camper off road, it's better to have some movement and allow things to flex around. It's just a matter of where that movement is and how it transfers to the camper itself. Done wrong, all those forces are transferred somewhere, usually not to an area that can absorb it well. Don't be afraid of not cranking down on the tie-downs, especially with the Fast guns. Everything is going to flex, if all of that flex is taken it out in one direction, now things give in the wrong place.

Having your problems out of the gate though does imply something was wrong to begin with. Hopefully you do have some verifiable documentation of communicating with them. Getting resolution will be tough in any matter

I think the Hallmark guys are defensive of their campers and don't take constructive criticism well, even with how they are secured. Would I buy a Hallmark again, hell yes. Overall the construction and design is what I expected. Compared to other options on the market (in spite of the cult like following), I think it's the best in class. There is no one size fits all with the these things. For the most part you cut to size, then pound to fit.