Propane Install?????

[Tress]

Please excuse this thread if it is a repeat, i was not able to find anything like it. As another one of my mods i am looking to install propane lines under my van for a few different things; coleman grill/stove, hot water heater and Olympian heater. The tanks have already been mounted on the under side of the van between the tralier hitch and frame, a very secure spot. Anyways i thought the rest of the install would be as simple as mounting a regulator, and then running a few of the pre-made propane hoses that you see at Camping World under the van and then up through the floor tot here respective locations. Now granted io knew there would be a few splits to make but aside from that i figured runt the rubber lines under the van through some conduit and use some switches so it could be turned off at each branch. Anyways i have been hearing on some other forums that rubber lines under the van are illegal in most states and that i have to use copper. My theory is that copper is more likely to fail because of all the bouncing around of offroading, plus since it has to be tightly secured to the body then there is all that much more chance it will bend and create leaks. So my question is what do i do? I mean does anyone know if i have to use copper? Would it be better in both a legal sense as well as a logical sense? As usual any info is greatly appreciated, we are down on the wire here with a good deal to do in the next month and this is the one BIG thing i really have not figured out yet, thanks this place is the best, take care enjoy the time

[ntsqd]

I've no idea if you HAVE to use copper, but I've some thoughts on using it.

First is that the "high pressure" propane regulators are set at 20 psi and the "low pressure" regulators are set at 11 inches of Water Column. Which converts to something like 0.4 psi. At these pressures nearly any fitting type will work. My own preference is to avoid the use of fittings that require ferrules. I flare the tubing to either the SAE 45* std. or (more preferably, but not as common) the JIC/AN 37* std. and then use tube nuts and sleeves (if the "short" nuts).

Can not use just any rubber hose, fuel specific or not. It must be rated for propane. I can tell you from first hand experience that propane can permeate 'normal' rubber fuel hose. My use is a prototype heater for work, so this was a secondary concern over ease and rapidity of changes in the prototype. But every time we turn off the propane bottle for any period of time (overnight or more) the hose will be entirely empty and the solenoid valve at the opposite end of the hose from the regulator does not leak - nor do the various fittings (per soap test).

If you use dead soft copper tube (only version that should be used IHMO) buy Adel type insulated clamps and secure the tubing with them at a maximum spacing of 18" between clamps. Dead soft copper tube will "work harden" with motion. If it can move enough to vibrate it will work harden. When it does that it gets brittle. You can make it dead soft again, but heating all the tubing to color and then dunking it water isn't very practical in this use.

[Tress]

I've no idea if you HAVE to use copper, but I've some thoughts on using it.

First is that the "high pressure" propane regulators are set at 20 psi and the "low pressure" regulators are set at 11 inches of Water Column. Which converts to something like 0.4 psi. At these pressures nearly any fitting type will work. My own preference is to avoid the use of fittings that require ferrules. I flare the tubing to either the SAE 45* std. or (more preferably, but not as common) the JIC/AN 37* std. and then use tube nuts and sleeves (if the "short" nuts).

[COLOR="Red"] Ok so bare with me for a second here, this is definitely a little beyond my knowledge. First of all whats a ferrule?And what do you mean by flaring? I assume that means i kind of reducer? Sounds to me like copper really just could'nt work.[COLOR]

Can not use just any rubber hose, fuel specific or not. It must be rated for propane. I can tell you from first hand experience that propane can permeate 'normal' rubber fuel hose. My use is a prototype heater for work, so this was a secondary concern over ease and rapidity of changes in the prototype. But every time we turn off the propane bottle for any period of time (overnight or more) the hose will be entirely empty and the solenoid valve at the opposite end of the hose from the regulator does not leak - nor do the various fittings (per soap test).
I was planning to use the propane hoses that they make from Camping World

If you use dead soft copper tube (only version that should be used IHMO) buy Adel type insulated clamps and secure the tubing with them at a maximum spacing of 18" between clamps. Dead soft copper tube will "work harden" with motion. If it can move enough to vibrate it will work harden. When it does that it gets brittle. You can make it dead soft again, but heating all the tubing to color and then dunking it water isn't very practical in this use.

Thanks a lot for the info! I swear this topic is posion! I havent gotten much info off any of the forums, i guess not many people do this sort of thing. THe real problem is i cant even find a bizness that will do it, either way thanks.

[dhackney]

Tress,

Here's an example of a ferrule, in this example used on a rubber hose:




Here's a shot of our LP compartment showing the LP distribution manifold for all the various appliances, the regulator, the stock bottle, etc.



Here's a crop of the manifold.




There are four basic types of pipe/tubing connections you will probably run into in a home or camper:

• Thread
• Compression
• Ferrule
• Flare

A ferrule requires a press and die of some kind to form the connection.

A flare connection is formed by stretching the end of a malleable pipe into a flared shape, like the end of a trumpet. In the preceding shots, the distribution manifold uses flared fittings. You can spot them by their curved necks.

Our factory made camper uses soft copper tubing and flared connections for all internal distribution, meaning from the regulator to the distribution manifold and from there to the appliances.

Copper tubing/pipe comes in two forms: rigid and soft/malleable. If you go to your local Lowes or Home Depot and look at the pipe you’ll find 10 foot lengths of rigid copper pipe. You don’t want to use that.

Instead, look for the copper tubing. You’ll find rolls of it in the same section of the store.

Usually in the same aisle is a section of pipe/hose connectors/fittings. Look around in there and you’ll see the flare connectors used for soft copper. You’ll need to buy or rent a flaring tool and they are not very expensive.

When I added a large, fixed LP tank to our rig I used LP grade hoses that I had custom made at a local hose shop. They made them up while I waited. Cost was very reasonable. Those hoses use ferrule crimps on the hose to connector interface and thread fittings for the connector to connector, e.g. hose to bulkhead or hose to tank.

I then wrapped the hoses in heavy duty spiral wrap to give them a little bit of protection. The hose coming into the right side of the LP source selector valve in our compartment is one of the custom made hoses.

If you use copper tube you can buy everything you need at Lowes/HD.

If you use hose, get custom hoses made to your needs, with the connectors you need on each end. Make sure you clearly tell the sales rep that this is for a Propane/LP/LPG application. Check the hose and make sure it is labeled for LP use.

Here’s what the Argentine markings for an LP grade hose look like. The US hose will have something similar in English.



To locate a custom hose shop, look in your yellow pages or search online. If you don’t see one, call your local ready mix plant (concrete plant) and ask them who they use to repair or replace the hydraulic hoses on the concrete delivery trucks.

You can see more on our install of the custom hoses, LP system, etc. at http://www.hackneys.com/mitsu/index-buildup-photos.htm in albums 26 (main tank to camper valve) and 23 (LP fill manifold used to fill the main tank).

Doug

[dhackney]

Tress,

Another consideration is bottle size.

The LP bottles down here differ from the U.S. in two ways:
1. They sometimes use different connector fittings (Chile)
2. They are different sizes

For instance, here's an overall shot of our LP tank compartment. Note the vertical clearance.



Here's a comparison of our stock U.S. tank and a similar capacity Chilean tank. Note the difference in vertical size.



Here are two shots of a standard U.S. connector. It uses an ACME connector on the outside (large right hand threads).




It also has POL left hand thread connections on the inside.




Argentina uses POL for all consumer LP bottle sizes.

Chile uses a special quick disconnect fitting for consumer 5, 11 and 20 kg bottles.



Chile uses POL on the largest consumer bottles, which I think are 35 or 40 kg.

In both countries, consumer bottles are available on an exhange basis just about everwhere, meaning any village big enough for a store has a bottle exchange cage. This is by far the most painless way to get LP.

Note that in both countries you can get your standard US bottle refilled at the LP plants located in the major towns and cities. They use the POL fitting to refill the bottle. The plants are usually on the main road coming into or out of town, about 1 to 3 km out. If the town grew up around them they are typically in the industrial section.

This find-the-plant method can be challenging at times. The POL bottle refill is very straightforward. But, if you need a large fixed tank like ours filled then you have to coordinate to meet up with one of the LP route delivery trucks at the plant. The route trucks are the only pumping source with the large ACME connector used on fixed tanks. (Note the large ACME connector is not the same as the small ACME connector used on your camper size bottle.)

If you are not anywhere near a plant you can also jumper fill your US bottle POL to POL, as in this shot from Puerto Natales, Chile.





(Note the LP blowing past the hose clamp connection on her jumper line and her bare toes. Think OSHA would approve? )


I was unable to jumper fill using the Chilean quick disconnect fitting, even after disassembling the valve and modifying it to increase its throughput.

Kids, don't try this at home...

This test was done strictly in the interests of establishing LP supply potential for ExPo members who might follow our tracks. (I'd insert a smiley face here but it would put me over the 10 image limit. You'll have to read the wink between the lines.)


Milling off the press fittings for the blowoff valve.


Drilled out the regulator orafice and opened up the valve throat to increase throughput.


Prototype valve mounted for jumper test. No joy.


The implications here are that you either:
a) Carry enough LP capacity to cover all of your time in Chile (unlikely).
b) Carry enough LP capacity to always be able to reach a major town/city to get to an LP plant to refill your US bottle (very challenging south of Puerto Montt).
c) Have a compartment or mounting position to accomodate small to medium Chile quick-disconnect bottles, plus purchase and install the corresponding Chile quick disconnect valve on your system. The latter is very easy, as the valves are available at all hardware stores in the quick-disconnect service territory. All you need is two hose clamps and a 3/8" brass union.
d) Buy the largest consumer bottle that uses a POL fitting and jumper fill a couple of US bottles.

Note that with a jumper fill you will probably not get a complete fill of your US bottle.

Doug

[ntsqd]

Please note the distinction between the ferrules that I refer to and those dhackey refers to. Same descriptive name, two different parts entirely.

Those that I refer to are compression ferrules employed inside of a metal tube compression fitting. Once the nut of such a fitting it tightened the ferrules are crimped onto the tubing. When crimped the ferrule both forms the seal and mechanically retains the tubing to the fitting.

The ferrules dhackey refers to are crimped over the outside of rubber hose with a special tool. These ferrules are much more permanent and far less likely to cause trouble than a hose clamp, but perform essentially the same function in clamping the hose down over a barbed hose fitting.

A friend of mine experimented with refilling the US "disposable" LP bottles. Lacking a pump, he found that freezing the disposables increased their fill percentage. Not sure how that info might be applied in this instance, but knowing this may help at some point.

[dhackney]

ntsqd is correct about the two types of ferrules. I could have been more descriptive and thorough there.

I also wasn't very good at defining the types of connections you will find either. I mixed two different things in that section: a) how the hose/tube/pipe is interfaced to the connector and b) the connector type itself.

For any gas/LP line you will have two things you are dealing with:
1) the tube/pipe/hose itself
2) the connections between tube/pipe/hose and the components of the system

The components of a propane/LP system are typically:
1. Propane/LP tank(s)
2. Tank selection valve
3. Regulator (establishes a consistent line pressure that matches what the appliances expect to see)
4. Distribution manifold (typically a string of T connectors)
5. Connectors
6. Tube/pipe/hose
7. Appliances


The tube/pipe/hose can be rigid pipe, flexible/malleable tubing (copper or plastic – I wouldn’t recommend plastic), or hose (plastic, rubber or a synthetic rubber type material).

At the point the tube/pipe/hose interfaces with the connector you will usually see these types of interfaces:
1. Solder (rigid copper pipe)
2. Hose barb and external ferrule (illustrated in the photo)
3. Hose barb and hose clamp (illustrated in the jumper photo of the leaking connection)
4. Compression fitting with an integrated internal ferrule (the ferrule slides over the outer surface of the tube/pipe/hose like a collar and is cinched down by the threaded fitting that tightens over the tube/barb onto the connector the tube/pipe is mating up to).
5. Flare fitting with a flared tube/pipe (the flare is held in place by a threaded collar that slides over the tube/pipe and tightens down onto the connector the tube/pipe is mating up to. Together they form a type of compression fitting.

At this point you have a tube/pipe/hose with a connector on the end of it.

The type of connector can be:
A. Solder (rigid copper pipe)
B. Thread (used with any type of tube/pipe/hose) (use propane/LP rated thread compound on this type of connection)
C. Flare (used with malleable soft copper tubing) ( do NOT use joint compound on this type of connection)
D. Compression (technically can be used with any type of tube/pipe/hose, but I’ve never seen it used on rigid copper) (do NOT use joint compound on this type on this type of connection)

You will not be using rigid copper pipe, so we won’t worry about solder.

It is very important to make certain that you have matching connectors for each connection in your system. You must use thread to thread, flare to flare, compression to compression, etc. If you don’t, you can easily have a leak, which is not a good day with a propane/LP system.

You can see an assortment of compression fittings, internal ferrules, etc. here:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/compress.html

You can see an assortment of barbed fittings here:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/barb.html

You can see an assortment of flare fittings here:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/flarefittings.html

You can see an assortment of thread fittings here:
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/brass.html

Make sure to use all brass connectors. Do not use plastic connectors for any portion of an propane/LP system.

Typically, the fixed components such as the regulator, the tank selection valve, etc. will all use female thread connectors. From those points, you will insert connectors of your choice, i.e. flare, compression or thread.

If you use malleable copper tubing for your main appliance distribution, those connectors will probably be flare. At the final connection between the feeder line and the appliance it is common to have a short section of hose to allow for appliance vibration, movement, inspection, etc. The appliance will probably have a female ¼” or 3/8” thread connection, or already have a compression or flare connector inserted.

If you have custom hoses made up you can have the type of connector you require put on each end of the hose.

If you need to pass through a wall/surface/bulkhead use a brass bulkhead connector. You can see a photo of a brass bulkhead fitting here:
http://www.brascomponents.com/bulkhead.htm

It helps tremendously if you standardize on one size of hose/tube/pipe and connectors for your entire system. For a camper size system 3/8” tube/hose should provide adequate flow for typical use of your systems.

If you have any component that has a non 3/8” connector, i.e. a stovetop or water heater, use a brass adapter fitting to convert immediately and directly to 3/8”. This allows you to carry one size of repair hose/tubing and an assortment of only one size of replacement/repair fittings.

It also helps a lot if you standardize on one main type of connector, i.e. compression, flare or thread. That allows you to carry one type of connector for repair/replacement.

All of this probably sounds a lot more complex than it actually is. While it is easy to mix up the types of connectors, especially flare and compression, if you standardize on one type, you can put a system together easily.

As already mentioned, the operating pressure of a propane/LP system downstream of the regulator is very low. This helps limit leaks.

Take your time, be meticulous and use a spray bottle with soapy water to test your system during and after your build and you’ll be fine. Check it every few weeks in your first few months on the road after things have shaken around a little bit.

The connector on the output of the propane/LP tank valve will vary by country and tank size. You will use a U.S.A. small ACME (right hand 1 3/8” thread) on your system while in the U.S. It is the only legal connector in the U.S.A. for consumer propane/LP tanks. POL (left hand 7/8” thread) is probably the most common in the Americas outside the U.S. and Chile. If possible, before you leave secure a few male POL to 3/8” barb connectors from a propane supply house similar to those in the lower left corner of this data page: http://www.victormfg.com/PDF/LP%20Ga...Pages/p108.pdf

Make sure you have the brass parts necessary to create a new tank feeder hose from a POL thread tank valve to your tank selection valve, if you have one, or your regulator. Don’t forget stainless steel radiator clamps of the necessary size. Typically, the tank feeder hose would include a brass POL male to 3/8” hose barb connector (this end goes into the tank valve), some propane/LP rated 3/8” hose, and a brass barb to 3/8” or ¼” male thread connector (this end goes into the valve or regulator).

[dhackney]

Chilean Propane/LP tank capacities and sizes

Capacity............Length.............Diameter... ............Valve Connection
5 kg..11 lbs...48.26 cm..19"......22.86 cm..9"............3/8" left hand thread
11 kg..24 lbs..59.69 cm..23.5"....30.48 cm..12"..........3/8" left hand thread
15 kg..33 lbs..57.15 cm..22.5"....38.10 cm..15"..........3/8" left hand thread
45 kg..99 lbs..121.9 cm..48".......38.10 cm..15"..........POL 7/8" left hand thread


Note that the 5-15 kg tanks all use the Chile quick disconnect valve. Kits with the valve and a 3/8" hose are sold in Sodimac and other home center/hardware stores. You can cut the 3/8" hose and use a 3/8" barb union to tie it into your system.



Here's a shot of some empty tanks at a Sodimac home center in Chile. You buy your first tank empty and then take it to an exchange retailer to swap it for a full tank.

An emtpy 11kg tank was about $26 USD and a filled 11kg tank was about another $22 for a total of $48 USD for the first 11 kg. After that, it would just be the $22 every time you needed to swap for a full 11kg tank.

[dhackney]

he found that freezing the disposables increased their fill percentage. Not sure how that info might be applied in this instance, but knowing this may help at some point.

This is because propane will seek to fill a lower temperature area. See #7 below.


When using a jumper fill, do the following:

Prerequisites:
A) Realize this is a dangerous procedure. You are dealing with explosive materials that can kill you and those around you.
B) Protect your hands. Liquid propane/LP is very, very cold when it evaporates (changes from a liquid to gas state). It will quickly freeze your skin and tissue, faster than you can react and pull away.
C) Extinguish all flames and eliminate all potential sources of sparks, flames, cinders, hot ash, etc.
D) Ensure the feeder tank has more than enough liquid propane/LP to fill the target tank.
E) Ensure you have a high output valves (POL) and high capacity hose (3/8") on the feeder tank to target tank jumper connection. Note that you cannot do a jumper fill with a Chilean quick disconnect valve on the feeder tank, it will not pass a sufficient volume of liquid propane.

Process:
1. Do the transfer outside, in an area with good ventilation and air flow.
2. Secure all connections and check for leaks.
3. Invert the feeder tank. This puts the liquid gas (Liquid Petroleum Gas = LPG = LP) at the bottom of the feeder tank.
4. Raise the feeder tank to a level above the target tank. Secure the feeder tank to a solid object using a ratchet strap, tie down strap, etc.
5. Open the target tank valve.
6. Open the feeder tank valve.
7. If possible, create a temperature difference between the two tanks. Your goal is to make the target tank cooler than the feeder tank. For instance, locate the target tank in the shade and the feeder tank in the sun. Or, put a damp towel on the target tank. Or, pour warm water on the feeder tank.

Propane/LP sees a lower temp area as a lower pressure area and seeks to migrate towards it. Creating a temperature delta between the two tanks will help you achieve a higher fill of the target tank.

8. If you are working with a non-U.S.A. target tank, DO NOT fill to 100%. Stop your fill at 80% to allow for gas expansion at higher ambient temperatures. Overfilling the target tank can cause it to explode at high ambient temperatures if sufficient gas is not used from the tank prior to high temperature exposure. Note that modern U.S.A. tanks with small ACME thread (1 3/8” right hand thread) valves have an automatic valve shut off at 80% full.

Propane expands 1.5% per 10 degrees F. A propane tank filled to 100% at 0 degrees F in Minnesota could become dangerously over-pressurized if taken to 100-degree F Arizona.

Weight is the only way to measure how full you have the tank.

Propane weighs 4.2 pounds per US gallon / .51 kilograms per liter, at 60 degrees Fahrenheit / 15.5 Centigrade.

Every propane tank is stamped with its tare weight (the weight of the tank itself) and its liquid water capacity. You need to calculate the weight of the tank if filled to 100% and 80% capacity. The total weight is tare weight + (tank liquid capacity * weight per liquid unit).

Here’s an example:





Again, weight is the ONLY way to know how full you have the tank.

If you are working with a modern U.S. tank, no worries, it will shut off the fill valve at 80%.

If you are working with a tank from another country, you MUST weigh it to know how full it is.

Here's a sample of the basic setup.


Note the inverted feeder tank in the sun, target tank in the shade, etc. Also note that this test proved unsuccessful. It is not possible to jumper fill from a Chilean quick disconnect valve, it won't pass enough liquid propane.



POL to POL jumper hose



POL to POL jumper hose connector detail. This hose was constructed with components purchased at a small hardware store in Perito Moreno, Argentina.


Be careful, be methodical, and this is no big deal. Screw around and you will pay the price. Chances are you will only get one chance to screw it up.

Happy jumping!

[dhackney]

If you choose the "find the plant" propane strategy, it will help a lot if you make up a cheat sheet to use at the plants.

Here's an example: http://www.hackneys.com/travel/docs/...ill-sample.pdf

Please note that I don't speak Spanish and I cobbled this up using our phrase books and English/Spanish dictionary.

The key elements are:
1. I need to fill a propane bottle
2. The tare weight of the bottle
3. The liquid capacity of the bottle
4. The calculated 80% fill weight