Sears Diehard Platinum 31M issues

[Ducky's Dad]

Do you think the CTEK 7002 is adequate for maintaining the 2150 in an application where it is rarely if ever significantly depleted? I just need something that is capable of truly topping it off, throwing it on the charger overnight once a month is no big deal.

Probably depends on the condition of your battery. Can you get it over 12.84 OCV after an overnight rest? If yes and if it never gets even a little bit sulphated, then maybe yes or at least better than nothing. I will say that my most recent 2150, installed 7/3/15, will not get to 12.84 OCV on the Ctek 7200. And that's on the truck with the 270 amp alternator that is supposed to be able to blow off sulphation. I have to use the Ultimizer. The 7200 is on Odyssey's approved charger list, but only for the smaller batteries, and Odyssey tech told me it won't work for the long term on a 2150. But it seems fine for a quick top off.

 

[4x4junkie]

Well, that opinion is not consistent with the Odyssey literature, the Odyssey tech support people, the Optima tech support people, my local battery purveyor, or several technical papers that I have actually read, etc.
The lead quality issue is the easiest to dispense with. Lead is lead whether it's virgin or recycled. All major manufacturers claim that they use pure lead, although that lead will be alloyed with other substances to provide the specific characteristics that each manufacturer wants. There is absolutely no evidence that I am aware of that companies like Odyssey or Optima or Northstar compromise their lead content. If you have any evidence to the contrary, I'd like to see it. There was a rumor floating around that Deka (East Penn) used recycled lead and that was the reason for their short warranty and quality issues. The people within the industry with whom I have spoken have assured me that whatever issues Deka may have are not related to the quality of their lead. And Deka is not Odyssey.

Do you actually think battery literature and sales (tech) people would proudly boast about the negative aspects of their batteries? Lets be real... No battery manufacturer is going to purposely compromise their lead content either, however impurities most certainly can (and do) exist in any material that is recycled, be it lead, aluminum, or anything else for that matter. Most impurities in molten lead float to the top where they can be skimmed off, but there will always be trace amounts that still exist dissolved within the metal. These impurities cause high self-discharge rates, lowered charging efficiency, higher IR, and other issues. It's a rather strange coincidence that the rate of quality & performance problems in batteries almost matches with the rise of recycled lead content in batteries...
Very pure recycled lead does exist, but obviously it is much more costly, so the incentive is there to cut corners and not use it in all but maybe the most premium batteries.

And I have no idea where the last part of that came from... I never said Deka was Odyssey. Deka is East Penn, Odyssey is Enersys.

Here's an interesting piece I found on battery failures caused by impurities in recycled lead:
http://www.phlsci.com/support/CatPaper10.pdf

Re your statement "Any battery is also capable of being fully charged at a voltage of, say 14.2-14.4V, again it just takes longer," that is only true of a battery in 100% perfect condition. Once the first bit of sulphation sets in, that is no longer a valid statement. And Odyssey tech people (including the founder of the company) are adamant that the 2150/PM1, in particular, needs 14.7V to reach a full charge. I have spoken with tech people at Ctek and at Optimate (not Optima), and they agree. In fact, Optimate tech told me that their Optimate 6 charger, suitable for AGMs, is not quite robust enough for the 2150/PM1 and that they were developing a new version of that charger that would go to 14.7 specifically to support the big Odyssey.

When sulfation sets in, NO amount of (steady) charge voltage is going to dissolve or revert it back to lead & acid (crystallized lead-sulfate is non-conductive). Once time has crystallized it, it's stuck there for good. The only way to dissolve crystallized sulfate is with the rapid pulses from a desulfator (the pulses are able to dissolve it by sending current through it capacitively).

Re your statement "The biggest charger or alternator in the whole wide world is not going to charge the battery any better than a smaller one capable of reaching 14.7 volts (the smaller charger will just take longer is all)," is also not accurate according to both Odyssey tech support and to my own empirical experience. My three most recent chargers are an Optimate 6, a Ctek 7002, and an Odyssey Ultimizer 40amp/3-Bank. I can tell you the the Ctek (14.7) charges the 2150 more effectively (higher OCV after charge) and more efficiently (faster) than does the Optimate 6 (14.6V). I can also tell you that the Ultimizer 40amp (14.7V) is more effective and efficient than either of those two chargers. I have had four of these batteries, and the comparisons of the three chargers are all on the same battery, so no sample variation.

Sounds to me like maybe your chargers are shutting themselves off prematurely. That's a problem with many so-called "smart chargers", they don't know when it's too soon to shut off or go into Float mode, especially on a battery that's abnormally slow to absorb. They time out of Absorb mode long before the battery has had enough time to reach full charge (meanwhile they tell you the battery is fully charged when it's not lol). A sluggish battery can take as much as 24 hours to reach a full charge, so that may be why you're not getting a full charge into the battery with those chargers.

I use a simple regulated DC power supply to do a complete absorption charge on a battery. I set it to 14.6V for a lead-calcium (a.k.a. "maintenance-free") battery, or 14.3V for a lead-antimony battery (give/take a few hundred millivolts depending on ambient temperature), and then leave it on the battery until the current tapers down to 0.5-1% of the amp-hour rating of the battery (1-2 amps for a 200Ah bank, for example). This means there are no timers to turn it off too soon, no blinky lights/displays to tell me (wrongly) that the battery is fully charged, just a simple amp-meter to indicate that the current has tapered down to the needed amount. A good quality battery (my old East-Penn Delco Voyager for example) would only need a few hours for the current to taper down to 1% of Ah capacity after full (absorptive) charging voltage had been reached... Many of the batteries I've had since then indeed take 12, some even 24 hours to reach that point. I don't have a PM1 or 2150 here to tell, but I have a very strong suspicion that I would see this same behavior on it as well.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Do you actually think battery literature and sales (tech) people would proudly boast about the negative aspects of their batteries? Lets be real... No battery manufacturer is going to purposely compromise their lead content either, however impurities most certainly can (and do) exist in any material that is recycled, be it lead, aluminum, or anything else for that matter. Most impurities in molten lead float to the top where they can be skimmed off, but there will always be trace amounts that still exist dissolved within the metal. These impurities cause high self-discharge rates, lowered charging efficiency, higher IR, and other issues. It's a rather strange coincidence that the rate of quality & performance problems in batteries almost matches with the rise of recycled lead content in batteries...
Very pure recycled lead does exist, but obviously it is much more costly, so the incentive is there to cut corners and not use it in all but maybe the most premium batteries.

I'm not sure what your point is there, but we are talking about "the most premium batteries," i.e., Odyssey, Northstar, Optima, etc. There are better batteries out there, but not for general automotive use. It's also "a rather strange coincidence that the rate of quality & performance problems in batteries almost matches with the rise of.." parasitic drain from solid state devices that control the electronic systems in modern vehicles and cause even new cars to go electrically flat within a couple of weeks if not tendered. I understand that GM is now including a Ctek battery tender with the new C7 Corvette because there is so much electronic crap running 24/7 on that car. Coincidence? I suspect not.

When sulfation sets in, NO amount of (steady) charge voltage is going to dissolve or revert it back to lead & acid (crystallized lead-sulfate is non-conductive). Once time has crystallized it, it's stuck there for good. The only way to dissolve crystallized sulfate is with the rapid pulses from a desulfator (the pulses are able to dissolve it by sending current through it capacitively).

Well, yes, but the big batteries need to be pulsed with a higher amp charge than a smaller battery to properly blow off the sulfation. I know one big distributor that claims to use up to 250 amp pulses to recondition these batteries. And Odyssey has told me several times that one cannot achieve a full charge on a 2150 with 14.2-14.3V, no matter how high the amperage. My experience with several of these batteries and several chargers and two different high amp alternators bears this out.

Sounds to me like maybe your chargers are shutting themselves off prematurely. That's a problem with many so-called "smart chargers", they don't know when it's too soon to shut off or go into Float mode, especially on a battery that's abnormally slow to absorb. They time out of Absorb mode long before the battery has had enough time to reach full charge (meanwhile they tell you the battery is fully charged when it's not lol). A sluggish battery can take as much as 24 hours to reach a full charge, so that may be why you're not getting a full charge into the battery with those chargers.

I always test my batteries for OCV with a multimeter, both when they come off the charger and the next day after they have rested. And then I usually use my Schumacher load tester to check status. I have had small smart chargers run for three days on a deeply discharged 2150 without shutting off. Not likely that my "chargers are shutting themselves off prematurely" because I am using three different chargers (four if you count the old dumb charger), from three different manufacturers, at three different amperages, with at least two different charge profiles, on six different batteries. And one of those is an Odyssey-branded charger specifically designated for the 2150 by Odyssey. If these things were shutting off prematurely, I would have noticed it by now. If you don't disconnect the battery from load, and if your parasitic load is high enough, you will never get to a full charge. I am aware of that and do disconnect for the reconditioning cycles with the big charger.

A sluggish battery can take as much as 24 hours to reach a full charge, so that may be why you're not getting a full charge into the battery with those chargers.

A big, deeply discharged battery can certainly take 24 hours or more to reach a full charge, depending on the charger, among other factors. Odyssey publishes charge times for their Ultimizers, and those charge times vary by battery capacity, state of discharge, battery condition, and the charger being used. The 40 and 50 amp chargers typically take less than eight hours for a full cycle on a 2150, even if it's down to 50% state of charge.

 

[4x4junkie]

I'm not sure what your point is there, but we are talking about "the most premium batteries," i.e., Odyssey, Northstar, Optima, etc. There are better batteries out there, but not for general automotive use. It's also "a rather strange coincidence that the rate of quality & performance problems in batteries almost matches with the rise of.." parasitic drain from solid state devices that control the electronic systems in modern vehicles and cause even new cars to go electrically flat within a couple of weeks if not tendered. I understand that GM is now including a Ctek battery tender with the new C7 Corvette because there is so much electronic crap running 24/7 on that car. Coincidence? I suspect not.

I was referring to batteries such as Surrettes, or possibly LifeLine or Trojan's higher-end stuff.

And the batteries going flat just the same in older vehicles obviously wouldn't be from parasitic electronic loads of the type you mention.

Well, yes, but the big batteries need to be pulsed with a higher amp charge than a smaller battery to properly blow off the sulfation. I know one big distributor that claims to use up to 250 amp pulses to recondition these batteries. And Odyssey has told me several times that one cannot achieve a full charge on a 2150 with 14.2-14.3V, no matter how high the amperage. My experience with several of these batteries and several chargers and two different high amp alternators bears this out.

Well again, amperage is not what charges a battery once absorptive charge voltage is reached. At that point a battery is only going to take in however many amps it's going to take in. To push more amps into it would mean exceeding the voltage limit.

I always test my batteries for OCV with a multimeter, both when they come off the charger and the next day after they have rested. And then I usually use my Schumacher load tester to check status. I have had small smart chargers run for three days on a deeply discharged 2150 without shutting off. Not likely that my "chargers are shutting themselves off prematurely" because I am using three different chargers (four if you count the old dumb charger), from three different manufacturers, at three different amperages, with at least two different charge profiles, on six different batteries. And one of those is an Odyssey-branded charger specifically designated for the 2150 by Odyssey. If these things were shutting off prematurely, I would have noticed it by now. If you don't disconnect the battery from load, and if your parasitic load is high enough, you will never get to a full charge. I am aware of that and do disconnect for the reconditioning cycles with the big charger.

Well, it sounds like your battery has problems then.
A healthy battery will eventually reach full charge no matter how tiny a charger is (as long as it's still enough to overcome the battery's self-discharge rate). To use your earlier water bucket analogy, even a drip-drip-drip will fill that bucket eventually, it just takes time is all.

A big, deeply discharged battery can certainly take 24 hours or more to reach a full charge, depending on the charger, among other factors. Odyssey publishes charge times for their Ultimizers, and those charge times vary by battery capacity, state of discharge, battery condition, and the charger being used. The 40 and 50 amp chargers typically take less than eight hours for a full cycle on a 2150, even if it's down to 50% state of charge.

For a healthy battery, charging it in 8 hours sounds quite reasonable. However given all the issues I've read here and in other places, I just don't think these 2150s have a very good absorption rate on them, which greatly extends the needed charge time. Perhaps one day I'll have my hands on one (maybe from a friend) and can find out for myself what they are, however I certainly ain't spending $250-300 on one when I can get a battery that will do the same and last the same (or longer) for almost 1/3 that.

 

[Airmapper]

Probably depends on the condition of your battery. Can you get it over 12.84 OCV after an overnight rest? If yes and if it never gets even a little bit sulphated, then maybe yes or at least better than nothing. I will say that my most recent 2150, installed 7/3/15, will not get to 12.84 OCV on the Ctek 7200. And that's on the truck with the 270 amp alternator that is supposed to be able to blow off sulphation. I have to use the Ultimizer. The 7200 is on Odyssey's approved charger list, but only for the smaller batteries, and Odyssey tech told me it won't work for the long term on a 2150. But it seems fine for a quick top off.

I'll have to check it one morning, but I'm thinking it usually rests about 12.6ish, has since the day I bought it. By the time I became aware of this issue Ultimizers were no longer available, and Odyssey keeps pushing the release of their charger back longer and longer, thus why I've waited this long to address my impending issue. They released 3 models, none of which are big enough for the 2150.

It seems utterly ridiculous to need a $300 charger for a $300 battery, however assuming that charger will fill my other charging needs, and I continue to use Odyssey batteries, it may eventually justify itself. I seriously doubt I could install a dual battery system in my vehicle for less than $300, and the single 2150 can handle anything I'd install in the vehicle.

 

[Naptown]

I can't really tell much from the link to Sears' website. Most of the user reviews complain about cheap construction and plastic bits, so that's a reddish flag. That particular charger seems to be unavailable in California, so I can't go look at one. Our state government, in its infinite wisdom, has actually banned transformer-based chargers because they are not adequately efficient. We can only buy solid state chargers, unless we find old stock somewhere or smuggle a charger in from another state. There is getting to be a booming business here in black market chargers, light bulbs, and solvents. But, I digress. The Sears description says the charger is suitable for AGMs and Diehard Platinum and it looks like it has a specific setting for the DieHard Platinum, so one would think it's OK for a PM1. But one could be disappointed because we know from experience and from the Odyssey approved charger list that an Odyssey/DieHard Platinum in say, Grp 34, needs a different charger than does the same battery in Grp 31. Sears does not have any info there that I can see about charging profiles or reconditioning/desulphation cycles, so that would be a concern. They don't seem to have the owner's manual posted on the site, so might be a good idea to go to a Sears store and peruse the manual and see if it says anything about the PM1, or charging profiles, or desulphation, or who makes it for Sears. If you buy one of these chargers, make sure you can get a refund if it does not work on your battery. You might also call Odyssey and see if they know anything about this charger and can recommend it, since last time I looked it was not on the approved list from Odyssey. Might be a bargain, might be just another charger, can't tell from the info they provide. Be leery of anything the counter guy tells you, because most of them don't know squat about the big Odysseys. Another thing that just occurred to me is that their reference to DieHard Platinum may be about the new, soon-to-be-available Platinum that is being OEM'd for them by Northstar. That 31M does not have the same charging requirements as does the Odyssey. So the short answer is: I don't know what to think of that charger.

I can't figure out why people say the construction is cheap. I find it to be built quite well. Anyways, it obviously has the amperage part of the equation down, I will have to check it with my Fluke meter to see what voltage it actually achieves. It's been available for over a year, so I'm confident it's for designed for the Odyssey built Platinum Batteries. Either way, not sure where you read it's a different charge algorithm. Both Odyssey and Northstar utilize the IUU algorithm as they are both TPPL battery designs. Of course, it could be something I'm missing.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

Either way, not sure where you read it's a different charge algorithm.

Didn't say that, don't know that. Did observe that Sears does not provide any of that info for the charger on their web site, and I can't go look at the charger because they do not appear to be available in this market. The Northstar rep told me last summer that Sears is shifting their Platinums from Odyssey manufacture to Northstar manufacture, but I have not seen any of those new batteries on the market yet. The same Northstar rep told me that their 31M has different charging and maintenance requirements than the Odyssey 31M, and that it is not as quirky as the Odyssey, but I have not seen any reliable tech data on the Northstar. Since I now have a new Odyssey in one truck and a new Northstar in the other truck, both 31Ms, I'll be able to do my own real world comparison. So far, the Northstar in the Tundra is holding charge better than the Odyssey in the Dodge, with both trucks having everything turned off except the alarms and the factory parasitic drains.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

I'm thinking it usually rests about 12.6ish, has since the day I bought it.

Sounds fairly typical. When my new Odyssey arrived fresh and directly from the factory, it was a little low, so I put it on the Ultimizer for a full cycle before I even installed it in the truck. It still has a hard time staying at 12.84V. Without looking at the chart, 12.6ish is probably about 70-75% of a full charge.

It seems utterly ridiculous to need a $300 charger for a $300 battery, however assuming that charger will fill my other charging needs, and I continue to use Odyssey batteries, it may eventually justify itself.

The Ctek 25000 (25amp) is on the Odyssey approved list for the 2150/PM1, and it should work with any battery you are likely to own. It's $226 now at Amazon, but I think I have seen them recently for about $185.
http://www.amazon.com/CTEK-56-674-A...TF8&qid=1447776625&sr=8-1&keywords=ctek+25000
I don't really like my Ultimizer 40amp/3-Bank because it is just too big and heavy and bulky, and has sharp edges and a bunch of superfluous (for me) cables and clamps hanging off it. I will probably replace it, and am waiting to see the new Odyssey chargers. The Ctek 25000 is my fallback choice.

It seems utterly ridiculous to need a $300 charger for a $300 battery,

I agree completely.

 

[Hilldweller]

I have my big charger in the Jeep, Doug....
Got lots of meters here too. Real meters.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

I can get a battery that will do the same and last the same (or longer) for almost 1/3 that.

What and where?

 

[Naptown]

No sweat. Not arguing, just wanted to make clear they are both TPPL and use the IUU charge algorithm. Only difference I've seen in the specs is the 10hr and 20hr amp rate both being higher on the NSB 31, which would suggest why the NSB is holding charge better. Though, there's no real way to be sure as they are different trucks and I think you said the batteries are different ages.

For what it's worth to those who care,

Here's a link to the NSB specs:

http://www.northstarbattery.com/1.0.1.0/251/NorthStar%20Ultra%20High%20Performance%20Batteries%20-%20Web%2007-18.pdf

They also have specific sheets for each battery if you search.

Here's the Odyssey specs also:

http://www.odysseybattery.com/marine_battery_specs.aspx

Both manufacturers also provide some very useful info in their FAQ pages.

I'm a big fan of the TPPL (Thin Plate Pure Lead) battery design. Both manufacturers make excellent products. The Northstar guys are former Enersys guys as I understand it. Thing for everyone to know is that these batteries may look the same as any other VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) battery, but they are actually very different and require different charging methods.

The most common thing I see is exactly what this thread is originally about, someone by a Group 31, because they want the most capacity they can get, but don't realize their charging system isn't "up to snuff". All this when all they really need is a Group 35, or equivalent. This has resulted in a lot of battery returns to Sears (Or whomever), that aren't the batteries fault, but the consumer's. That's why they hassle people about the returns now. It's simply a lack of properly educating one's self to one's needs.

P.S.: Balmar makes some Large case alternators that are capable of charging these high capacity TPPL batteries, but most people aren't gonna spend what it takes to make one of these work.

 

[Naptown]

I can get a battery that will do the same and last the same (or longer) for almost 1/3 that.

I'm curious as well.

I think you've missed the point of a TPPL battery. The whole reason they exist is their ability to accept nearly unlimited charging amperage, shelf life is far superior to traditional lead acid, and size relative to their high-rate discharge and deep-cycle discharge. They are currently the best answer to what most "Overlanding" needs are.

You can certainly get traditional deep-cycle batteries that will deep-cycle as well as TPPL. You can also buy a starting battery will give you high-rate discharge as well as TPPL. But, I have't seen a traditional Dual-Purpose that will do both functions nearly as well as a TPPL.

 

[BigSwede]

I have a Sears Plat 31 in my Trooper for a couple of years now, and it hasn't shown any signs of degradation in terms of performance. I run a CPAP and fridge overnight when camping. And the Trooper is not my daily driver so it doesn't get driven much. So we'll see how long it lasts.

But before I would buy a $300 battery and a $300 charger, I would move into the future and get a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery like this: http://store.starkpower.com/12V-50A...ttery-LiFePO-Energy-Storage-Battery_p_42.html Although listed as a 50 amp hour battery, the difference is almost all of that power is usable, whereas you should not draw down a lead acid battery more than 50% to avoid damaging it. So in effect, this battery has the same usable amp-hours as the group 31 AGM. And the LiFePO4 batteries will do many more discharge-charge cycles than lead-acid. And it weighs 16.2 pounds, compared with around 70 IIRC for the 31 AGM.

 

[Hilldweller]

.. Thing for everyone to know is that these batteries may look the same as any other VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) battery, but they are actually very different and require different charging methods.

The most common thing I see is exactly what this thread is originally about, someone by a Group 31, because they want the most capacity they can get, but don't realize their charging system isn't "up to snuff". All this when all they really need is a Group 35, or equivalent. This has resulted in a lot of battery returns to Sears (Or whomever), that aren't the batteries fault, but the consumer's. That's why they hassle people about the returns now. It's simply a lack of properly educating one's self to one's needs.
....

Vehicle manufacturers are building their charging systems specific to the requirements of the batteries that come OE. BMW has drawn a line in the sand and firmly prohibits customers from swapping batteries ---- the charging systems can be programmed by a BMW tech though.

Optima Yellowtops are my favorite overlanding battery. Thin plates, 99.99% pure lead, low internal resistance, and only about 1/3 of the parts of other batteries in their class (less to vibrate apart).

 

[Ducky's Dad]

there's no real way to be sure as they are different trucks and I think you said the batteries are different ages.

Definitely different trucks, but I could swap batteries between the trucks to equalize things for comparison purposes. Not going to happen, though, because these things are too damn heavy to be moving around. Batteries are the same age, acquired within about thirty days of each other, one last July and one in August.

P.S.: Balmar makes some Large case alternators that are capable of charging these high capacity TPPL batteries, but most people aren't gonna spend what it takes to make one of these work.

I did put a bigass 270 amp alternator (bench tested at 285amp max, producing 116amps at idle in the truck), and it produces plenty of amperage but my Dodge alternator voltage is regulated by the ECU in the low 14s. Dodge service managers have told me that even they cannot reprogram or reflash the ECU to boost the voltage. All sane advice is to not add an external voltage regulator to this truck, hence the use of the Ultimizer.