6.0 and 6.4 Powerstroke...drop some knowledge on me
- Thread starter Viggen
- Start date
I had a high end auto business a few years back, specialized in light duty diesels, the current owner is very successful with it. They will live, up here we have environmental challenges that amplify issues, but it basically takes a set of head studs, and an egr delete to get rid of the issues, they are pretty decent after that. The egr plays havoc with the turbo in our winter climate, and the stock egr cooler is a pos that will fill an engine full of coolant, there are better aftermarket coolers where you have to retain one. We have had 6.4's that suffered piston failures, very odd with only one piston out of the set failing, and in no common cylinder, like a defective piston. Sometimes the cylinder survives without a scratch, sometimes it takes the whole bottom end out, there is never any warning. Chips can cause issues on a stock engine, especially if you are working it, and a funny thing to note is that we do a pile of work on busses equipped with those engines, and we see 2-300 000 KM on them with no issues, my Navistar contacts blame Fords involvement for the issues. The new 6.7 looks to have solved a pile of problems, and get decent fuel economy, we drive those every day around here now, they seem OK, time will always tell though!
No.
I chose a 6.0 over the 6.4 for a couple reasons, price was one but also I can't stand the '08+ dash.
Diesels are more expensive to maintain and more expensive to repair. Both engines have their issues but educating yourself on their care and feeding can reduce the cost of fixing things when they do go wrong.
As far as the 6.0 goes, the main issues are fuel injection control modules (FICM) failures, high pressure oil leaks, egr coolers, and head gaskets. FICM issues and HPO leaks can be diagnosed before they result in starting issues with a simple monitor (scan gauge, etc). EGR cooler failures can be caught early if you don't ignore the signs, and many (not all) head gasket failures can be attributed to a failed EGR cooler that was ignored (water doesn't compress, if it makes its way to the combustion chambers it has to go somewhere).
Both 6.0 and 6.4 vintage Super Dutys are great trucks and there are some bargains out there. If you lean towards the 6.0 there's good info in the tech folder on FTe. I spent a fair amount of time reading up, asking questions, and bought and programmed a Scangauge before I test drove one.
k.
I chose a 6.0 over the 6.4 for a couple reasons, price was one but also I can't stand the '08+ dash.
Diesels are more expensive to maintain and more expensive to repair. Both engines have their issues but educating yourself on their care and feeding can reduce the cost of fixing things when they do go wrong.
As far as the 6.0 goes, the main issues are fuel injection control modules (FICM) failures, high pressure oil leaks, egr coolers, and head gaskets. FICM issues and HPO leaks can be diagnosed before they result in starting issues with a simple monitor (scan gauge, etc). EGR cooler failures can be caught early if you don't ignore the signs, and many (not all) head gasket failures can be attributed to a failed EGR cooler that was ignored (water doesn't compress, if it makes its way to the combustion chambers it has to go somewhere).
Both 6.0 and 6.4 vintage Super Dutys are great trucks and there are some bargains out there. If you lean towards the 6.0 there's good info in the tech folder on FTe. I spent a fair amount of time reading up, asking questions, and bought and programmed a Scangauge before I test drove one.
k.
drewactual
Adventurer
6.4 and 6.0 powerstrokes.... so bad they still outsold cummins and duramax...
seriously: nope... I'd take my 6.4 anywhere and not be the least bit worried.
but realize the effort for maintenance is real... they can't be ignored. they have to be maintained... my last gasser, a 360 mopar, was a tank... it was low on performance (even after stroking it and boring it .030 coming to 408cid) and bad on economy- but it would go with little to zero maintenance, and would run even when injured.
there are some items about both the 6.0 and the 6.4 to be concerned about- the 6.0 has been well documented and the results are 'bulletproofing', which consists of several major things that should be addressed- the IH engineers knew this and went forward with the 6.4 addressing many of these items... what they couldn't address is the federally mandated emissions... that is what DESTROYS these things... with emissions intact, I'd guess an owner very fortunate to make it through the first quarter (250k miles) without some major work... work consisting of turbos, heads (cracking), exhaust (clogging), EGR Coolers (rupturing+ flashing the OE coolant and it dropping silicates which clog the oil cooler), oil coolers (mentioned before, but at risk not only due to EGR coolers but because of casting sand remaining in the block and the Ford Gold coolant attaching and clogging it), and the big one: fuel systems...
speaking about a 6.4 specifically, but much translates to a 6.0, here is a list of MUSTS if you want absolute '7.3/5.9 esqe' reliability:
lose the DPF and EGR... tune accordingly.
reroute the CCV to atmosphere.
Flush gold coolant replace with CAT EC-1 'red' ELC coolant, slap a coolant filter on her.
replace the HFCM (low pressure fuel 'lift' pump) with a better suited aftermarket such as an AirDog, FASS, or Fuellabs- (my contention is the low pressure pump either fails or stops providing proper volume of fuel to the bowl, which feeds the high pressure fuel pump.. the hpfp uses fuel not only for its purpose but also as a lubricant and coolant... The HPFP is capable of maintaining prime all by itself, and the HFCM isn't monitored by the system in OE form, so, many owners lose that lift assist, and 'run out of fuel', taking the HPFP out with it. this is a minimum of a $10k repair- treat it NICELY)... the HFCM has a silly filter and small area for water retention- the aftermarket pumps have huge spin on filters and are capable of holding a LOT more water- water in fuel will kill these things QUICKLY. fuel is delivered to the rail and cylinder at pressures exceeding 27k psi at WOT, and any water can destroy it with a quickness.. also, ULSD fuel is 'dry'; the same process that removes the sulfur removes the lubricants as well, making additives a must- so, treat every tank with a product with not only cetane in mind, but also lubricity.. it's important.
change oil religiously- use an laboratory analysis to determine such... lifters, rockers, and camshafts are at risk with nasty oil- and even more so if running with the emissions intact... the regeneration process pushes raw fuel to the DPF by washing the cylinders on the exhaust stroke, which inevitably leaks past rings and enters the crankcase- diesel doesn't lubricate internal engine parts very well... so, expect huge wear on a non-deleted engine. On this note, I installed an amsoil 2uc bypass filter, and my oil looks brand new up to 3k miles, shows slight soot infiltration around 5k miles, is moderately dark @ 10k miles, and just plain dirty at 15k miles... I sample it every 5k miles just in case, but if i had certain parts still on that truck there is no way i'd go beyond 5k miles per change, and likely 3k miles being the maintenance freak I am...
get a monitor- items such as EGTs, ECT's, EOTs, TransTemp, EBP,- they are crucial and will demonstrate an issue before that issue matures into an ISSUE...
Everything I've done to my 6.4 is with longevity in mind.. however... one of the side effects of that are unlocking what IH had in mind to begin with... I run a conservative tune that is SUPER clean, and so much so that I'd compare it to the best of the OE tunes on any diesel... even said, and without huge tacky performance gadgets, I'm turning in excess of 550hp and 1100# of torque... the truck is capable of performance car like get up and go, if that were my thing... as it is, that isn't my thing- but it is very nice to be able to have that when needed, and it's been beneficial many times on the highway... I can get around 17mpg over long hauls, which isn't bad for a truck in excess of 9k#- and average above 15mpg overall...
think of it like this: the 6.0/6.4 were guinnipigs(sp?) for emissions... the crap was tacked on after they were designed, as an after thought.. diesels are going through right now what gassers went through in the late seventies and early eighties.. model year 2008 (first year of DPF's) is about equiv to the first year of smog pumps (remember those things?), where economy and longevity were traded for green... now don't get me wrong, I'm all for 'green' where it makes sense, but designing 'after build' an engine to 'produce 25% less soot at the tailpipe' and then choking it to burn 30% more fuel, where does that make sense? If you dump that stuff, which is not legal, the 6.4 rocks. with it? no sir..
seriously: nope... I'd take my 6.4 anywhere and not be the least bit worried.
but realize the effort for maintenance is real... they can't be ignored. they have to be maintained... my last gasser, a 360 mopar, was a tank... it was low on performance (even after stroking it and boring it .030 coming to 408cid) and bad on economy- but it would go with little to zero maintenance, and would run even when injured.
there are some items about both the 6.0 and the 6.4 to be concerned about- the 6.0 has been well documented and the results are 'bulletproofing', which consists of several major things that should be addressed- the IH engineers knew this and went forward with the 6.4 addressing many of these items... what they couldn't address is the federally mandated emissions... that is what DESTROYS these things... with emissions intact, I'd guess an owner very fortunate to make it through the first quarter (250k miles) without some major work... work consisting of turbos, heads (cracking), exhaust (clogging), EGR Coolers (rupturing+ flashing the OE coolant and it dropping silicates which clog the oil cooler), oil coolers (mentioned before, but at risk not only due to EGR coolers but because of casting sand remaining in the block and the Ford Gold coolant attaching and clogging it), and the big one: fuel systems...
speaking about a 6.4 specifically, but much translates to a 6.0, here is a list of MUSTS if you want absolute '7.3/5.9 esqe' reliability:
lose the DPF and EGR... tune accordingly.
reroute the CCV to atmosphere.
Flush gold coolant replace with CAT EC-1 'red' ELC coolant, slap a coolant filter on her.
replace the HFCM (low pressure fuel 'lift' pump) with a better suited aftermarket such as an AirDog, FASS, or Fuellabs- (my contention is the low pressure pump either fails or stops providing proper volume of fuel to the bowl, which feeds the high pressure fuel pump.. the hpfp uses fuel not only for its purpose but also as a lubricant and coolant... The HPFP is capable of maintaining prime all by itself, and the HFCM isn't monitored by the system in OE form, so, many owners lose that lift assist, and 'run out of fuel', taking the HPFP out with it. this is a minimum of a $10k repair- treat it NICELY)... the HFCM has a silly filter and small area for water retention- the aftermarket pumps have huge spin on filters and are capable of holding a LOT more water- water in fuel will kill these things QUICKLY. fuel is delivered to the rail and cylinder at pressures exceeding 27k psi at WOT, and any water can destroy it with a quickness.. also, ULSD fuel is 'dry'; the same process that removes the sulfur removes the lubricants as well, making additives a must- so, treat every tank with a product with not only cetane in mind, but also lubricity.. it's important.
change oil religiously- use an laboratory analysis to determine such... lifters, rockers, and camshafts are at risk with nasty oil- and even more so if running with the emissions intact... the regeneration process pushes raw fuel to the DPF by washing the cylinders on the exhaust stroke, which inevitably leaks past rings and enters the crankcase- diesel doesn't lubricate internal engine parts very well... so, expect huge wear on a non-deleted engine. On this note, I installed an amsoil 2uc bypass filter, and my oil looks brand new up to 3k miles, shows slight soot infiltration around 5k miles, is moderately dark @ 10k miles, and just plain dirty at 15k miles... I sample it every 5k miles just in case, but if i had certain parts still on that truck there is no way i'd go beyond 5k miles per change, and likely 3k miles being the maintenance freak I am...
get a monitor- items such as EGTs, ECT's, EOTs, TransTemp, EBP,- they are crucial and will demonstrate an issue before that issue matures into an ISSUE...
Everything I've done to my 6.4 is with longevity in mind.. however... one of the side effects of that are unlocking what IH had in mind to begin with... I run a conservative tune that is SUPER clean, and so much so that I'd compare it to the best of the OE tunes on any diesel... even said, and without huge tacky performance gadgets, I'm turning in excess of 550hp and 1100# of torque... the truck is capable of performance car like get up and go, if that were my thing... as it is, that isn't my thing- but it is very nice to be able to have that when needed, and it's been beneficial many times on the highway... I can get around 17mpg over long hauls, which isn't bad for a truck in excess of 9k#- and average above 15mpg overall...
think of it like this: the 6.0/6.4 were guinnipigs(sp?) for emissions... the crap was tacked on after they were designed, as an after thought.. diesels are going through right now what gassers went through in the late seventies and early eighties.. model year 2008 (first year of DPF's) is about equiv to the first year of smog pumps (remember those things?), where economy and longevity were traded for green... now don't get me wrong, I'm all for 'green' where it makes sense, but designing 'after build' an engine to 'produce 25% less soot at the tailpipe' and then choking it to burn 30% more fuel, where does that make sense? If you dump that stuff, which is not legal, the 6.4 rocks. with it? no sir..
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drewactual
Adventurer
the navstar 6.4's use different pistons than the powerstroke... the powerstroke using the DPF has a larger indentation on the pistons to counter the heat and the cylinder pressures encountered during the regeneration process.. those pistons have lips, and those lips burn- creating hotspots that will crack a piston with a quickness. the pistons are the one item that isn't easily counterable by owners in their driveway... the head studs are just plain smart, but the 6.4 is a LOT stronger than the 6.0 in this regard, using larger bolts. that said, torque to yield bolts, which both use OE, WILL fail sooner or later.. too many cycles on an engine w/ 18:1 mechanical compression ratio is asking a lot from them... Studs and ringing takes a lot of that risk away.
Viggen
Just here...
Holy crap. Thats a lot of stuff. This is not my first diesel but my last go round was my 3B powered Land Cruiser. Having read that the motors could be headaches but seeing that I can pretty easily find them, has me wondering. I pass three for sale on my way home from work every day but have never stopped as I do not want a dual cab. I would want an ECSB arrangement.
Is there anything that, if you saw while perusing one on a lot, you could point out as a deal breaker? So much of your list would require a less than immediate oil test, maintenance records (something I do not think Ford can produce like you can with Toyota factory service records), and/ or x ray vision.
Is there anything that, if you saw while perusing one on a lot, you could point out as a deal breaker? So much of your list would require a less than immediate oil test, maintenance records (something I do not think Ford can produce like you can with Toyota factory service records), and/ or x ray vision.
drewactual
Adventurer
yeah, you can get a ford report... it's called an oasis. use vin, ask for oasis, poof...
there are tell tale things to look at...
first- crawl underneath it and look for the HFCM, it is pretty much under the drivers feet on the frame rail... it has a little gate on it that is used for draining the water from it, which should happen periodically as a maintenance thing... open the gate... if it doesn't open easily, or refuses to open, or if it opens but nothing comes out- walk away... whoever owned it didn't take care of it like they were supposed to do, otherwise the gate should be easy to open and close... if it doesn't drain, there is a load of fallen paraifn blocking it, which speaks that maintenance was lacking..
fire her up and open the hood... take the oil tower cap off, and rest it on the opening (not threaded)... blow by is substantial on these things, especially on a cold engine and idle speeds, but, it shouldn't be enough to blow the cap off the tower if it's resting on it... make it dance? yes.. blow it off? no.. this speaks of a worn engine... cracked pistons.. sloppy rings...
look at the coolant bottle (degas), if it is green coolant, walk away.. if it is gold (pale yellow) eh- maybe... if it is red, it's prior owner knew a ting or two about a thing or two.. the plastic should be translucent w/o any crud in it whatsoever- no little line where the level if coolant is...
pull the dipstick and put some oil on your finger- rub it and then smell it.. it should not even hint of fuel...
pull the upper filter (bowl) and look at it.. it is the primary 2 micron filter, but it is behind the HFCM, so it should be almost spotless- pull the pleats apart and look for crap in there, and then look into the bottom of the bowl itself.. if there is even a spec of metal, walk away.
test drive her somewhere where you can get to highway speeds and hold her for several miles.. dash gauges are almost useless, but look for spikes in temperature, and steady boost w/ no turbo farting... if you care enough, purchase a bluetooth obdii dongle, and cram it in the obdii port, and download the free version of tourqey- it will give you readings of every pid in the system... after a good amount of highway speed, you're going to want to see the deltas between oil temperature and coolant temperature.. they shouldn't be anymore than 5* apart, and in favor of the oil. don't hesitate to run it hard- I never run mine hard, but this is the one place where you'll want to do so...
when you're done driving, and after having at least one (at full operating temperature) wide open throttle run of at least five seconds, open the hood and look for ANY evidence of leakage from the degas bottle... this is where blown headgaskets or floating heads manifest most often.. also, there should be zero bubbling in that bottle no matter how hard you ran it.
while driving, thumb through the 'message center', and make sure it isn't regenerating..
while the engine is running, stand beside the passenger cowl and listen close for a "fump fump fump" as opposed to a thump coming through the air box at idle... if you hear it, and it will be obvious if it's there, this is how worn rockers show themselves on these things...
if you're real serious after all of that, take the airbox duct out of the way, uncovering the low pressure turbo wheel... grab it and wiggle it- there should be ZERO play.
if all that checks out, take it to a competent diesel mechanic and have them perform a compression and a leak down test...
there are tell tale things to look at...
first- crawl underneath it and look for the HFCM, it is pretty much under the drivers feet on the frame rail... it has a little gate on it that is used for draining the water from it, which should happen periodically as a maintenance thing... open the gate... if it doesn't open easily, or refuses to open, or if it opens but nothing comes out- walk away... whoever owned it didn't take care of it like they were supposed to do, otherwise the gate should be easy to open and close... if it doesn't drain, there is a load of fallen paraifn blocking it, which speaks that maintenance was lacking..
fire her up and open the hood... take the oil tower cap off, and rest it on the opening (not threaded)... blow by is substantial on these things, especially on a cold engine and idle speeds, but, it shouldn't be enough to blow the cap off the tower if it's resting on it... make it dance? yes.. blow it off? no.. this speaks of a worn engine... cracked pistons.. sloppy rings...
look at the coolant bottle (degas), if it is green coolant, walk away.. if it is gold (pale yellow) eh- maybe... if it is red, it's prior owner knew a ting or two about a thing or two.. the plastic should be translucent w/o any crud in it whatsoever- no little line where the level if coolant is...
pull the dipstick and put some oil on your finger- rub it and then smell it.. it should not even hint of fuel...
pull the upper filter (bowl) and look at it.. it is the primary 2 micron filter, but it is behind the HFCM, so it should be almost spotless- pull the pleats apart and look for crap in there, and then look into the bottom of the bowl itself.. if there is even a spec of metal, walk away.
test drive her somewhere where you can get to highway speeds and hold her for several miles.. dash gauges are almost useless, but look for spikes in temperature, and steady boost w/ no turbo farting... if you care enough, purchase a bluetooth obdii dongle, and cram it in the obdii port, and download the free version of tourqey- it will give you readings of every pid in the system... after a good amount of highway speed, you're going to want to see the deltas between oil temperature and coolant temperature.. they shouldn't be anymore than 5* apart, and in favor of the oil. don't hesitate to run it hard- I never run mine hard, but this is the one place where you'll want to do so...
when you're done driving, and after having at least one (at full operating temperature) wide open throttle run of at least five seconds, open the hood and look for ANY evidence of leakage from the degas bottle... this is where blown headgaskets or floating heads manifest most often.. also, there should be zero bubbling in that bottle no matter how hard you ran it.
while driving, thumb through the 'message center', and make sure it isn't regenerating..
while the engine is running, stand beside the passenger cowl and listen close for a "fump fump fump" as opposed to a thump coming through the air box at idle... if you hear it, and it will be obvious if it's there, this is how worn rockers show themselves on these things...
if you're real serious after all of that, take the airbox duct out of the way, uncovering the low pressure turbo wheel... grab it and wiggle it- there should be ZERO play.
if all that checks out, take it to a competent diesel mechanic and have them perform a compression and a leak down test...
I bought my 06 6.0psd without doing any meaningful research prior to purchase.
Then I read about all their problems and naturally had some concerns.
From much research, I pieced together a strategy of leaving the engine stock, driving it hard and using a good fuel additive.
125,000 later all is well. Zero problems or failures. I have cleaned the EGR valve twice. It has been by far my most reliable vehicle.
If necessary, I would prefer to bullet proof my 6.0 versus buying something new.
Good luck
R
Then I read about all their problems and naturally had some concerns.
From much research, I pieced together a strategy of leaving the engine stock, driving it hard and using a good fuel additive.
125,000 later all is well. Zero problems or failures. I have cleaned the EGR valve twice. It has been by far my most reliable vehicle.
If necessary, I would prefer to bullet proof my 6.0 versus buying something new.
Good luck
R
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The 6.0 PSD and 5-speed auto combination in my '05 Excursion has been a dream come true (knock on wood) after some very calculated modifications. Excursions weigh near 8k pounds; it's absolutely amazing how this engine moves this rig around; truly effortlessly. Like others, I researched the 6.0 extensively before diving in. I found my '05 Excursion for sale from the original owner with 118k miles (paid $16k in 2012). The engine was 100% stock and the owner was not aware of all the supposed issues. I now have nearly 150k miles on her with no let downs. I tow a 10k toy hauler a few times a year. I'm sure this has been covered above, but I'll list what I did to my rig to bring it to it's current state:
Removed the intake manifold to accomplish:
No major disassembly required:
Tuning:
Additives:
Non Engine Related:
I still use the Ford Gold Coolant (same as Zerex G-05). Lots of people blame this coolant for 6.0 issues. I think if you drain and refill the radiator as regular maintenance I don't think it will be a problem.
I'm still using the original and stock, TTY (Tork To Yield) head bolts. Again, lots of people blame these bolts for 6.0 issues.
The truck is no rock crawler, but it certainly has some serious advantages as an overland rig.
Removed the intake manifold to accomplish:
- Intake manifold thoroughly soaked and cleaned (machine shop)
- EGR delete (one of many kits available)
- New OEM Oil Cooler
- Replaced STC fitting (found was already done, this is one cause of hot hard starts)
No major disassembly required:
- 'blue spring mod' (new spring to increase fuel pressure)
- coolant filter (to remove supposed casting sand)
- Cat delete (hollowed and put back in place)
- Muffler delete (muffler replaced with straight pipe and FTE resonator installed after downpipe, very quiet)
- CCV routed to atmosphere (elephant hose mod)
- Replaced cold side CAC tube (stock was plastic, upgrade was aluminum)
- Stant replacement coolant cap (my stock cap never leaked but did as preventative)
- Edge CTS Monitor (to monitor FICM voltage, oil vs coolant temp, and others)
Tuning:
- Innovative ECM Tune (street tune)
- PHP FICM Tune
Additives:
- Archoil 9100 (added to the oil at every oil change)
- Diesel Clean (in the grey bottle, added at every fuel stop)
Non Engine Related:
- Bilstein shocks
- V code springs replace the front stock springs (stock springs are low and soft, V codes are stock F250 springs, about 1" lift)
- RAS over stock rear springs (Road Master Active Suspension installed with stock rear springs, 1" lift)
- Air Lift air bags for rear springs (levels the vehicle when towing)
- Red Head Steering box replacement
I still use the Ford Gold Coolant (same as Zerex G-05). Lots of people blame this coolant for 6.0 issues. I think if you drain and refill the radiator as regular maintenance I don't think it will be a problem.
I'm still using the original and stock, TTY (Tork To Yield) head bolts. Again, lots of people blame these bolts for 6.0 issues.
The truck is no rock crawler, but it certainly has some serious advantages as an overland rig.
Attachments
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IdaSHO
IDACAMPER
Im a ford truck guy thru and thru, and have the good 7.3 Powerstroke in my pickup.
If I was ever forced to go newer, it would be a tough decision to even stay with diesel.
They are expensive to maintain. But there is a lot to be said about the ruggedness and efficiency of a good diesel.
That said, if I did go diesel I would certainly go with a 6.0 with the simple intentions to perform all of the fixes and deletes.
From what ive seen and read, once done up right the motor seems to be light years ahead of the old 7.3
If I was ever forced to go newer, it would be a tough decision to even stay with diesel.
They are expensive to maintain. But there is a lot to be said about the ruggedness and efficiency of a good diesel.
That said, if I did go diesel I would certainly go with a 6.0 with the simple intentions to perform all of the fixes and deletes.
From what ive seen and read, once done up right the motor seems to be light years ahead of the old 7.3
UrbanCummin
Diesel Mechanic
Not gonna rehash everything that's already been said, lots of good info here.
6.0L important info:
-oil coolers cause most of the issues with the high pressure oil system, most injector and pump failures can be attributed to a restricted oil cooler
-do an egr delete, tune is up to you, 03-04 wont give you a cel, 05-7 will, doesn't affect the way it runs
-good idea to use a edge insight or some other digital gauge to monitor engine info like FICM V, ICP, etc
-way easier to work on then a 6.4
-DON'T bag it until she's warmed up, helps a bunch with headgasket failure
6.4 info:
-depending on what you need to do on the engine it will involve pulling the cab, ford designed it this way, pain in the *** if you plan on doing any work yourself
-lots of issues with high pressure fuel pump failures from my experience
-you NEED to do a dpf and egr delete and tune to make these much more reliable
-great power stock and even better with a mild tune
Neither one will get mileage as good as a cummins but with the dpf delete the the 6.4 isn't bad and 6.0l are ok.
6.0L important info:
-oil coolers cause most of the issues with the high pressure oil system, most injector and pump failures can be attributed to a restricted oil cooler
-do an egr delete, tune is up to you, 03-04 wont give you a cel, 05-7 will, doesn't affect the way it runs
-good idea to use a edge insight or some other digital gauge to monitor engine info like FICM V, ICP, etc
-way easier to work on then a 6.4
-DON'T bag it until she's warmed up, helps a bunch with headgasket failure
6.4 info:
-depending on what you need to do on the engine it will involve pulling the cab, ford designed it this way, pain in the *** if you plan on doing any work yourself
-lots of issues with high pressure fuel pump failures from my experience
-you NEED to do a dpf and egr delete and tune to make these much more reliable
-great power stock and even better with a mild tune
Neither one will get mileage as good as a cummins but with the dpf delete the the 6.4 isn't bad and 6.0l are ok.
drewactual
Adventurer
something I find fascinating about the 6.0 are the injectors in relation to oil...
the injectors are HEUI - hydraulic electric unit injection... they use engine oil and the trucks HPOP to operate them... and what they do to the oil is------- strange...
they'll shear a 40 weight oil to 30 in a matter of hours... however, a 30 weight oil will remain 30 weight... the running joke is that they modify to the oil they like... but, practical lesson here is those things are tough on oil so, use a good selection of oil, and you might as well run 5w30, or 10w30, or something 30... because that's what it's going to end up, anyway.
crazy, huh?
the 6.4 uses piazioelectric (sp?) injectors... they are more akin to gasser injectors, in that they don't produce their own pressure like the HEUI ones do- they instead have a stack of crystals and a tiny lever- when they are hit with juice they press on the lever which pushes the gate open, and allows already pressurized fuel past... because of the piazio properties, those things can operate WICKED fast, and provide as much as 5 distinct injection events per cycle... that's crazy, huh? The fuel systems on a 6.4 is the secret to the gobs of power and torque they can safely produce. The compound turbo also helps, but one thing about that: the angry hair dryer noise at the exhaust tip is something it takes a long time to get used to.
the injectors are HEUI - hydraulic electric unit injection... they use engine oil and the trucks HPOP to operate them... and what they do to the oil is------- strange...
they'll shear a 40 weight oil to 30 in a matter of hours... however, a 30 weight oil will remain 30 weight... the running joke is that they modify to the oil they like... but, practical lesson here is those things are tough on oil so, use a good selection of oil, and you might as well run 5w30, or 10w30, or something 30... because that's what it's going to end up, anyway.
crazy, huh?
the 6.4 uses piazioelectric (sp?) injectors... they are more akin to gasser injectors, in that they don't produce their own pressure like the HEUI ones do- they instead have a stack of crystals and a tiny lever- when they are hit with juice they press on the lever which pushes the gate open, and allows already pressurized fuel past... because of the piazio properties, those things can operate WICKED fast, and provide as much as 5 distinct injection events per cycle... that's crazy, huh? The fuel systems on a 6.4 is the secret to the gobs of power and torque they can safely produce. The compound turbo also helps, but one thing about that: the angry hair dryer noise at the exhaust tip is something it takes a long time to get used to.
Viggen
Just here...
Probably true. The biggest problem with the Cummins motor is that it is wrapped in a Chrysler/ Fiat envelope. That is a really hard one to swallow.
Wow, thanks for all the information. I knew that a modern diesel was going to be a completely different animal for the old mechanical ones that I am used to but had no idea that it was going to be that much of one. Definitely gives me something to think about. The list of things to check is pretty prodigious.
drewactual
Adventurer
I love my 6.4... it is solid and reliable with very little whimpering... It costs me about $200 every oil change, as it holds 18 or so quarts of oil, and i run the good stuff, plus $20 or so a filter.... add fuel filters, and that is an additional $60 every 10k miles- so... it adds up... that same amount of TLC in a gasser would last at least 30~40k miles (to include plugs and dizzy+cap if it's still wired that way), where as the diesel gets it every 15k...
again, it's not my goal, but, to get the insane amount of HP/TQ out of an engine for as little effort as can be done with a 6.4, and maybe only twice the effort/cost with a 6.0, is worth it... now a 7.3 will never reliably give you the power... some 6.7's are turning that kind of power but after much work, and same with the 5.9 and 6.7- you can get the power out of them, but it takes a lot of effort/cash to get it there... the 6.4 stock can double OE HP and TQ in half an hour and $1500...
all that said.....
the 5.9CTD remains my favorite, followed by the 7.3... that 5.9 when done right and no crazy mods squeezing for power, is as solid an engine as you could ever ask for. The 7.3 isn't far behind, but being a V engine, it is more complicated than it needs to be.
I had an '03 5.9 that I loved- and would still have had I not got married and inherited a teenager and with a baby on the way... both were four full doors, but the super duty cab is cavernous compared to the dodge, and the controls don't feel near as flimsy as the Dodge did- so, there is that...
again, it's not my goal, but, to get the insane amount of HP/TQ out of an engine for as little effort as can be done with a 6.4, and maybe only twice the effort/cost with a 6.0, is worth it... now a 7.3 will never reliably give you the power... some 6.7's are turning that kind of power but after much work, and same with the 5.9 and 6.7- you can get the power out of them, but it takes a lot of effort/cash to get it there... the 6.4 stock can double OE HP and TQ in half an hour and $1500...
all that said.....
the 5.9CTD remains my favorite, followed by the 7.3... that 5.9 when done right and no crazy mods squeezing for power, is as solid an engine as you could ever ask for. The 7.3 isn't far behind, but being a V engine, it is more complicated than it needs to be.
I had an '03 5.9 that I loved- and would still have had I not got married and inherited a teenager and with a baby on the way... both were four full doors, but the super duty cab is cavernous compared to the dodge, and the controls don't feel near as flimsy as the Dodge did- so, there is that...
yeah, you can get a ford report... it's called an oasis. use vin, ask for oasis, poof...
there are tell tale things to look at...
first- crawl underneath it and look for the HFCM, it is pretty much under the drivers feet on the frame rail... it has a little gate on it that is used for draining the water from it, which should happen periodically as a maintenance thing... open the gate... if it doesn't open easily, or refuses to open, or if it opens but nothing comes out- walk away... whoever owned it didn't take care of it like they were supposed to do, otherwise the gate should be easy to open and close... if it doesn't drain, there is a load of fallen paraifn blocking it, which speaks that maintenance was lacking..
fire her up and open the hood... take the oil tower cap off, and rest it on the opening (not threaded)... blow by is substantial on these things, especially on a cold engine and idle speeds, but, it shouldn't be enough to blow the cap off the tower if it's resting on it... make it dance? yes.. blow it off? no.. this speaks of a worn engine... cracked pistons.. sloppy rings...
look at the coolant bottle (degas), if it is green coolant, walk away.. if it is gold (pale yellow) eh- maybe... if it is red, it's prior owner knew a ting or two about a thing or two.. the plastic should be translucent w/o any crud in it whatsoever- no little line where the level if coolant is...
pull the dipstick and put some oil on your finger- rub it and then smell it.. it should not even hint of fuel...
pull the upper filter (bowl) and look at it.. it is the primary 2 micron filter, but it is behind the HFCM, so it should be almost spotless- pull the pleats apart and look for crap in there, and then look into the bottom of the bowl itself.. if there is even a spec of metal, walk away.
test drive her somewhere where you can get to highway speeds and hold her for several miles.. dash gauges are almost useless, but look for spikes in temperature, and steady boost w/ no turbo farting... if you care enough, purchase a bluetooth obdii dongle, and cram it in the obdii port, and download the free version of tourqey- it will give you readings of every pid in the system... after a good amount of highway speed, you're going to want to see the deltas between oil temperature and coolant temperature.. they shouldn't be anymore than 5* apart, and in favor of the oil. don't hesitate to run it hard- I never run mine hard, but this is the one place where you'll want to do so...
when you're done driving, and after having at least one (at full operating temperature) wide open throttle run of at least five seconds, open the hood and look for ANY evidence of leakage from the degas bottle... this is where blown headgaskets or floating heads manifest most often.. also, there should be zero bubbling in that bottle no matter how hard you ran it.
while driving, thumb through the 'message center', and make sure it isn't regenerating..
while the engine is running, stand beside the passenger cowl and listen close for a "fump fump fump" as opposed to a thump coming through the air box at idle... if you hear it, and it will be obvious if it's there, this is how worn rockers show themselves on these things...
if you're real serious after all of that, take the airbox duct out of the way, uncovering the low pressure turbo wheel... grab it and wiggle it- there should be ZERO play.
if all that checks out, take it to a competent diesel mechanic and have them perform a compression and a leak down test...
And that is how you do it end thread
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