Power Wagon is awesome BUT... F350 with locker is probably better

[projected]

I really like the Power Wagon I really dislike the loud/juvenile graphics along with the red grill highlighting that looks like a high school kid got happy with a spray can :-( Luckily this can be deleted

I'm also not excited about the price charged for the PW, the extremely low payload (1400 lbs is a complete joke for a 3/4 ton truck), or how the 6.4 performed on the Ike Gaunlet test towing up I70 to the Eisenhower tunnel (it seems the tranny ratios are all wrong for the tq/hp of the 6.4 gas engine). For me the Current F350 with the 6.2L, 4.30 gears, rear locker option, 3000-3800 lbs payload, AND mid $30K to 40K pricing is a much better vehicle for a much better price.

I would choose the F350 over the F250 for the added leaf and the 1" higher lift block in the rear. I think a leveled F350 is the perfect full size truck for actual off road use and a light weight slide in popup (or a heavier slide in with less off road). With all the money saved I will still be ahead even after adding an ARB front locker if I choose.

What are you full size truck people thinking about this comparison, I would like to hear feedback.

I just want to add I'm far from a fan boy of any brand, my 2 worst vehicles were actually a 1995.5 Tacoma and 2006 Tundra (both bought new, I had a 2004 Tacoma that was great), and my 2 best vehicles were a 2007 Chevy Silverado Classic LBZ Duramax 2500 and my current Nissan Frontier. Even with my bad Toyota experiences we just purchased a 2015 4runner limited which has been great so far. I like what I like regardless of the brand.

 

[WagoneerSX4]

What you'd be losing to the PW would be off-road articulation and unloaded ride comfort or the ability to drive at any sort of speed unloaded on dirt tracks or uneven roads. Anything with a 3800lb payload is not going to flex off road with rear leafs that stiff. We used to drive way to quick on the way to job sites with a work F-350 with a couple tools in the back and that thing would hop and skip around to the point where it was scary.

If I were looking in this segment right now, I would be looking at the Titan XD with the 5.0 cummins and Pro-4x package. Seems to be the happy medium between 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton.

I was really unimpressed with the 6.4L and how huge the ratios were between 1, 2, and 3rd. You had to really keep in it in 1st to not have the transmission shift and bog out in 2nd, even in tow mode. I went into it knowing it was going to be detuned for torque and reliability compared to the 6.4 in the cherokee, charger and challenger, but it seems to be WAY detuned. It didn't even sound good. Overall i thought it was a really boring engine/transmission.

 

[projected]

Great points Wagoneer, when I test drove an F350 empty it started bucking around pretty good on a crappy road. I'm sure it would be brutal empty on wash board, I didn't even think about the articulation with the stiff suspension, I was thinking solid axle good. My plans for this truck would be to keep a FWC Hawk or similar in the back full time, I would probably consider bolting it in as well. Along with that I would always air down some when off road (as I do with my Frontier) to help smooth the ride some. I guess it would take some experimentation to get the right pressure for the weight of the truck and camper.

Do you think with a constant 1400-1500 lbs load in the bed things would calm down some and possibly get some articulation or would it still be a mess?

Thanks!

I really like the specs of the new Titan XD but I'm really afraid of all the modern diesels and their endless emissions issues that I read about on GM, RAM, and Ford sites. I really regret getting rid of my 07 LBZ now, although that GM drop frame is just terrible for off road ground clearance. I wish some info on the gas Titan would be released but I don't think we will hear anything until sometime in 2016. Also I guess the XD is a diesel 5/8 ton :sombrero: and the gas will be a basic 1/2 ton?

I also test drove the RAM 6.4 and wasn't very impressed, not saying I wouldn't take one, I just thought it would be a real power house.

 

[WagoneerSX4]

Yeah if you're planning to have a 1500# camper in the bed always, 3/4 ton is a no brainer. And with a camper in it you basically have to be realistic, you aren't going to be off roading it to the point where you need a ton of articulation. Add in an auto locker, and you the need for lots of articulation is even less. At this point I'd much rather have the upgraded axle, brakes, tranny and chassis of the 3/4 ton.

I was really only refurring to something like the Titan XD if your truck needs to play double-duty.

 

[Regcabguy]

Great points Wagoneer, when I test drove an F350 empty it started bucking around pretty good on a crappy road. I'm sure it would be brutal empty on wash board, I didn't even think about the articulation with the stiff suspension, I was thinking solid axle good. My plans for this truck would be to keep a FWC Hawk or similar in the back full time, I would probably consider bolting it in as well. Along with that I would always air down some when off road (as I do with my Frontier) to help smooth the ride some. I guess it would take some experimentation to get the right pressure for the weight of the truck and camper.

Do you think with a constant 1400-1500 lbs load in the bed things would calm down some and possibly get some articulation or would it still be a mess?

Thanks!

I really like the specs of the new Titan XD but I'm really afraid of all the modern diesels and their endless emissions issues that I read about on GM, RAM, and Ford sites. I really regret getting rid of my 07 LBZ now, although that GM drop frame is just terrible for off road ground clearance. I wish some info on the gas Titan would be released but I don't think we will hear anything until sometime in 2016. Also I guess the XD is a diesel 5/8 ton :sombrero: and the gas will be a basic 1/2 ton?

I also test drove the RAM 6.4 and wasn't very impressed, not saying I wouldn't take one, I just thought it would be a real power house.

Carli's got the solution. I've ridden in a '13 F-250 6.2 with his 2.5 Pintop setup and rear leafs. After installation the shop took it to a nearby mini proving ground at high speed. I puckered up and held on and nothing happened. Amazing job of shock valving and hardware. Lot's of dough but they got it down. Only problem was the lack of poop with 315's,Aluminess bumpers,a Snugtop shell and contractor type rack. It was a qclb and I don't know what the axle ratio was.

 

[drewactual]

I absolutely love my 09 250 lariat ultimate w/6.4 power stroke... these things are awesome, and with a little elbow grease and know-how, become extremely reliable mid 12 second nine thousand+ pound rigs, but they are ROAD HOGS, not exactly good for off-road. Even with all the goodies, the effort to make them truly trail ready is overwhelming. I've lifted mine 4.5" over 37" cooper stt pro's, and I am not afraid of anything labeled 'improved', but there isn't any way I'd put it on any surface advertised with a diamond. It's just not worth it.

it does, however, have the capability in a pinch, and the higher ground clearance and coopers hedge my bets if I take it slow and easy.

now you wanna talk road manners? It's got all that in spades. I pull a 2400 mile run over 40 hours every year- that isn't eight hours a day, that's two 20 hour straight pulls- and it is super easy in this rig compared to rigs I've owned in the past. I loved my '02 Ram, but it was NOT suited for this type of run. There is anywhere from 800 to nearing 2k of load in the bed (including a 80ga aux tank which extends my range to the point I need only one fuel stop if I start full)... I dare you to try that in a powerwagon.

And then there is the moment of truth, where we have our lil 'come to Jesus' meeting, and lay our cards on the table: full size trucks aren't suited for trails or serious off-road. They can be pushed in that category with much effort and skill, but, they just aren't... There are very few jeeps (or that class of vehicle) that can carry your family and your provisions (including your camper) across the highways to the trail head and most of the way to the trail near as easy. A powerwagon is a compromise between the available options.. a dang good one, but still.

 

[TwinStick]

You are right. Todays auto transmissions gear ratio's are all wrong for gas HD work. They just are. I don't know what the big 3 are thinking here. I know all about C.A.F.E. requirements but still. The gear ratio's are nowhere near where they need to be. They are fine for the massive torque of the diesels but not for gassers. If they (Dodge/Ram) would come out with an auto with the same gear ratios of my G-56 manual in our 2008 Power Wagon, it would be near perfect. Our PW pulls our camper/s with absolute ease, compared to our 04 Ram 2500 w/auto/Hemi/4.10's/HD cooling. Same exact engine, same hp. It was ALWAYS shifting between 2nd & 3rd just to maintain the speed limit on flat ground.

I put a set of Hellwig Load Pro 35's on it for towing. $380 & problem solved. Our old camper was 10,500 lbs. Our new one is 3200 lbs. We love our truck. It is not without issues though. Wheel hop in sand/snow is one of them.

 

[drewactual]

You are right. * Todays auto transmissions gear ratio's are all wrong for gas HD work. They just are. I don't know what the big 3 are thinking here. I know all about C.A.F.E. requirements but still. The gear ratio's are nowhere near where they need to be. They are fine for the massive torque of the diesels but not for gassers. If they (Dodge/Ram) would come out with an auto with the same gear ratios of my G-56 manual in our 2008 Power Wagon, it would be near perfect. Our PW pulls our camper/s with absolute ease, compared to our 04 Ram 2500 w/auto/Hemi/4.10's/HD cooling. Same exact engine, same hp. *It was ALWAYS shifting between 2nd & 3rd just to maintain the speed limit on flat ground.

I put a set of Hellwig Load Pro 35's on it for towing. $380 & problem solved. Our old camper was 10,500 lbs. Our new one is 3200 lbs. We love our truck. It is not without issues though. Wheel hop in sand/snow is one of them.

* When that transmission gets tired, hit PATC up for a Ramzilla, and have them dial the ratio's where you need them. They are flat out the best with Mopar'ish transmissions by my reckoning. It's a shame, but manufacturers know that the EPA takes overall drive ratio's and displacement into account when determining mileage, with hardly any real world testing- if any... if the engine maintains stioch ratio's, they are close, but if it is undergeared- as many are- the engine will be lugging and under 14:1 a:f constantly instead of the magic 14.7:1..

** I suffered the same with my 02, 5.9- playing with the tire size to affect overall ratio's helped, but nothing helped until I dropped 4.56:1 R&P's in it... then it was great, and mileage drastically IMPROVED- taking lug off the engine and holding -13~14 vacuum signal... that isn't always the case, but w/ today's o/d transmissions, they don't impact like they used to do. That's my opinion, but backed up with real world experience.

 

[04Ram2500Hemi]

My daily driver is a 2012 Power Wagon and I love it. If I had to replace it today, it would be a Laramie Power Wagon without the crappy graphics (mine says Power Wagon on the hood and tailgate, but that mud graphic thing they put on the new SLT's are horrible). If you're after a smooth riding 3/4 off road capable factory truck, it's hard to beat a Power Wagon. The problem with the PW is what makes it great, also hinders it in other areas. There is a huge debate right now on a different forum about the lack of towing/hauling ability of the new PW. The general consensus is air bags are a huge help, but it won't legally increase the payload. I think the Super Duty is a great choice if that's what your after. I personally don't need the payload capacity, but I wanted solid front axels along with all the other goodies that come straight from the factory. Good luck with your decision!

 

[plainjaneFJC]

Great points Wagoneer, when I test drove an F350 empty it started bucking around pretty good on a crappy road. I'm sure it would be brutal empty on wash board, I didn't even think about the articulation with the stiff suspension, I was thinking solid axle good. My plans for this truck would be to keep a FWC Hawk or similar in the back full time, I would probably consider bolting it in as well. Along with that I would always air down some when off road (as I do with my Frontier) to help smooth the ride some. I guess it would take some experimentation to get the right pressure for the weight of the truck and camper.

Do you think with a constant 1400-1500 lbs load in the bed things would calm down some and possibly get some articulation or would it still be a mess?

Thanks!

I really like the specs of the new Titan XD but I'm really afraid of all the modern diesels and their endless emissions issues that I read about on GM, RAM, and Ford sites. I really regret getting rid of my 07 LBZ now, although that GM drop frame is just terrible for off road ground clearance. I wish some info on the gas Titan would be released but I don't think we will hear anything until sometime in 2016. Also I guess the XD is a diesel 5/8 ton :sombrero: and the gas will be a basic 1/2 ton?

I also test drove the RAM 6.4 and wasn't very impressed, not saying I wouldn't take one, I just thought it would be a real power house.

I like you logic. The camper should be perfect to smooth out the F350 ride, and with the real rear locker you should be good. Good luck!

 

[Dan C]

Full Size Adventure

I really like the Power Wagon I really dislike the loud/juvenile graphics along with the red grill highlighting that looks like a high school kid got happy with a spray can :-( Luckily this can be deleted

I'm also not excited about the price charged for the PW, the extremely low payload (1400 lbs is a complete joke for a 3/4 ton truck), or how the 6.4 performed on the Ike Gaunlet test towing up I70 to the Eisenhower tunnel (it seems the tranny ratios are all wrong for the tq/hp of the 6.4 gas engine). For me the Current F350 with the 6.2L, 4.30 gears, rear locker option, 3000-3800 lbs payload, AND mid $30K to 40K pricing is a much better vehicle for a much better price.

I would choose the F350 over the F250 for the added leaf and the 1" higher lift block in the rear. I think a leveled F350 is the perfect full size truck for actual off road use and a light weight slide in popup (or a heavier slide in with less off road). With all the money saved I will still be ahead even after adding an ARB front locker if I choose.

What are you full size truck people thinking about this comparison, I would like to hear feedback.

I just want to add I'm far from a fan boy of any brand, my 2 worst vehicles were actually a 1995.5 Tacoma and 2006 Tundra (both bought new, I had a 2004 Tacoma that was great), and my 2 best vehicles were a 2007 Chevy Silverado Classic LBZ Duramax 2500 and my current Nissan Frontier. Even with my bad Toyota experiences we just purchased a 2015 4runner limited which has been great so far. I like what I like regardless of the brand.

OK. I'll bite.

Using my own truck as an example, I have found that every pickup is a compromise when it comes overland travel. I drive a 2004 Super Duty with the 5.4 gas engine. Definitely a heavy vehicle that is short on cohones! However, there are work arounds for most of the problems listed with all of these heavy duty trucks, and the compromises of an early super duty (leaf springs all around).

After a basic leveling kit and 33 inch tall tires, the truck was a slug when it came to performance, was thirstier than a Guy's Night Out, and the transmission was shifting all over the place. The ride was extremely rough on washboards - especially when unloaded, and the suspension did not articulate that well on the trail.

The first and biggest change that I made to the truck was 4.56 gears. The fuel economy returned (mostly), the transmission behaved itself, the truck pulls the occasional trailer with ease (even better than when the truck was stock), and gave me power that I didn't expect.

Second, I air down the tires to about 30 psi for fast washboards (35-40MPH), and I upgraded to a much better (read expensive) set of adjustable shocks.

Third as with any 4x4, disconnecting one link from the front sway bar and keeping it secured out of the way with a zip tie before going off road (something the Power Wagon already does electrically) provided articulation that not only surprised my Jeep driving friends (because all four wheels now stayed on the ground), and this enabled me to take this truck across Engineer Pass in Colorado, the Schaefer Switchbacks in Canyonlands National Park, Tower Arch road in Arches National Monument, and many other places out west and here in my home state of Florida that most folks would expect only to go in a Wrangler or Land Rover.

Can trucks this large do everything a Jeep JK Rubicon, Land Rover Defender, or a Land Cruiser do? Yes, and No. It will NOT fit down certain trails (Black Bear Pass in Colorado comes to mind) or run a rock crawling competition (King of the Hammers), but it will haul more gear without pushing the max GVW limits of the vehicle, and provide more comfort for large American sized waistlines on long trips than most other (read smaller) 4x4's.

As far as the Power Wagon goes, it's definitely on the radar for me should the time come for a replacement truck, as I'm not that brand loyal either. Being that the axles and frame are the same as on the other 2500 Ram trucks, a heavier duty spring could make up for some loss in payload (should you really need it). If you choose the Ford, the 6.2 engine likes to wind a little more (like the 5.4) and it will accept a re-gear (if needed) without complaint. As far as the splashy looks, to each his own. Order the Power wagon without the stickers.

 

[Ducky's Dad]

I was really unimpressed with the 6.4L and how huge the ratios were between 1, 2, and 3rd. You had to really keep in it in 1st to not have the transmission shift and bog out in 2nd, even in tow mode. I went into it knowing it was going to be detuned for torque and reliability compared to the 6.4 in the cherokee, charger and challenger, but it seems to be WAY detuned. It didn't even sound good. Overall i thought it was a really boring engine/transmission.

I have a 5.7 PW and it is the best truck I have ever owned. Agree about the torque profile and gear ratios, but I found that a $350 programmer from Edge solved that problem quite nicely. Most of the effect from the CARB-legal version of Edge Insight is in managing the shift points and the extra HP and torque are just a bonus. Made the truck quicker and much more pleasant to drive, especially in mountains.

Every truck is a compromise. For my use there is nothing from Ford or any other manufacturer that I would trade for the PW.

 

[bloodyWEST]

Fwiw here is my dad in his 2014 CCSB diesel FX4. He has racked up a few hundred miles in the dirt with it, biggest gripes are the small fuel tank(replaced with a 52gal) and with the factory 20" wheels you can't air down much. But the ride is still incredibly smooth for 10-15 miles untill the tiny stock Rancho shocks over heat.

Steel pass in Death Valley. A wrangler rubicon watched him crawl through here, said "I don't do rocks" and turned back, LOL

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[bloodyWEST]

https://vimeo.com/147556315


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[XJLI]

Those kind of pictures make me feel better about inevitably upgrading to a full-size in the next couple years. Your dad is awesome.