Long range shooting/hunting thread

waveslider

Outdoorsman
Sorry, I was referring to body size, not antler size.

Asking whether your 30-06 is a good long range cartridge vs what is the effective range of your 30-06 are different questions indeed.

I attempted to answer the former, if you are looking for the latter, we would need to know the charachteristics of your bullet/load of choice.

But as was mentioned previosly, its more about the Indian than the arrow in most cases.
 

kojackJKU

Autism Family Travellers!
Sorry, I was referring to body size, not antler size.

Asking whether your 30-06 is a good long range cartridge vs what is the effective range of your 30-06 are different questions indeed.

I attempted to answer the former, if you are looking for the latter, we would need to know the charachteristics of your bullet/load of choice.

But as was mentioned previosly, its more about the Indian than the arrow in most cases.

Yes..but at that size...it's a big freakin animal....It has been a while but I think it was over 200lbs a 1/4 after dressing.
 

Dalko43

Explorer
Any discussion about hunting rifles, and especially if you are going to be making longer shots, needs to start with what critters you are after IMO. The right caliber choice for a western US hunter that will be hunting Antelope, Wolves, Bears, Deer and maybe the occasional Elk or Sheep is going to have different needs than a hunter in, say, Newfoundland. If memory serves, your Moose are slightly small compared to, say, a Yukon moose for example?

Regardless of that, the 30-06 is generally considered to be a poor cartridge for long range hunting. Undoubtedly, you could hit a target at extended ranges (just like I can with my .270) but in order to maintain the kinds of velocities needed for good terminal ballistics, you would have to shoot a pretty small/light bullet (140gr ish).

There are no "golden rules' in shooting or long range hunting but for the most part the practitioners are shooting 'heavy for caliber', high BC bullets at velocities north of 2800 fps. There are several calibers that achieve that pretty well (assuming your gun has the right twist rate to stabilize the bullet properly). A few of the more common calibers for long range big game hunting (as opposed to varmint sized game) are 7 Rem Mag, 300 Win Mag, 300 RUM, 28 Nosler, 6.5x284. In the presence of those calibers, even the "golden boy" of recent rifle calibers - 6.5 Creedmoor - doesn't stack up very well.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter much if you get your bullet to the right location a country mile away, if you don't have the right velocity on the bullet to perform its job properly then you will not like the results. For my chosen caliber (7RM) my bullet will normally fall below 1600 fps around 1200 yards (depending on elevation) which represents the absolute outer limit that my equipment can perform. My goal would be to feel confident that I could live up to the limits of my equipment, even if I don't never contemplate a shot at a critter at that range.

And I'm just as happy shooting my 270 in close because its all just hunting to me.

I agree with most of this, but I don't know how relevant the "long range hunting" bullet is for the average hunter. Most people are taking shots at 400 yards and in, at which distances something like a .30-06 should be fine on most types of large game. Now, if we're talking about spotting and taking down elk and caribou at 600+ yards in open plains or mountain settings, I could see the necessity of the true "long range" cartridges like 300 WM or 7mm Rem Mag. But the number of people who have the skill and practical necessity of taking such shots on game animals are few and far between (at least they're not as numerous as the internet would have you believe).

I think the point you illustrate, which many shooting enthusiasts and even hunters tend to forget, is this: hitting a target at 600+yards with accuracy is not necessarily the same as hitting one with enough energy and momentum (velocity factors into both) to put it down. That's why something like a 6.5 Creedmoor, for all of its strengths as a cartridge, has its limitations on medium/big game past the 500-600 yards. There is something called Matuna's Optimal Game Weight formula which, while not an exact science, gives you a rough idea of how certain cartridges will perform on different types of game at various distances: http://www.chuckhawks.com/game_range_caliber.htm
 
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kojackJKU

Autism Family Travellers!
I agree with most of this, but I don't know how relevant the "long range hunting" bullet is for the average hunter. Most people are taking shots at 400 yards and in, at which distances something like a .30-06 should be fine on most types of large game. Now, if we're talking about spotting and taking down elk and caribou at 600+ yards in open plains or mountain settings, I could see the necessity of the true "long range" cartridges like 300 WM or 7mm Rem Mag. But the number of people who have the skill and practical necessity of taking such shots on game animals are few and far between (at least they're not as numerous as the internet would have you believe).

I think the point you illustrate, which many shooting enthusiasts and even hunters tend to forget, is this: hitting a target at 600+yards with accuracy is not necessarily the same as hitting one with enough energy and momentum (velocity factors into both) to put it down. That's why something like a 6.5 Creedmoor, for all of its strengths as a cartridge, has its limitations on medium/big game past the 500-600 yards. There is something called Matuna's Optimal Game Weight formula which, while not an exact science, gives you a rough idea of how certain cartridges will perform on different types of game at various distances: http://www.chuckhawks.com/game_range_caliber.htm


Totally agree. As I mentioned my good ole 30-06 has taken down more moose in our area than I can count. Most have been single shot too. since I don't care about the "TROPHY" of the rack, I usually take head shots.
 

waveslider

Outdoorsman
Sigh.

If you "totally agree" then you would be interested to find that the chart he provided would indicate the 30-06 would not be a suitable caliber for moose at ANY range. Especially not the unusually large moose that occupy your hunting grounds apparently. Which clearly the 30-06 is a suitable caliber - based on your very own reports of killing moose with it.

Weren't you the person asking about the 30-06 for "long range hunting"?

I think I'm seeing a pattern here.....
 

kojackJKU

Autism Family Travellers!
Sigh.

If you "totally agree" then you would be interested to find that the chart he provided would indicate the 30-06 would not be a suitable caliber for moose at ANY range. Especially not the unusually large moose that occupy your hunting grounds apparently. Which clearly the 30-06 is a suitable caliber - based on your very own reports of killing moose with it.

Weren't you the person asking about the 30-06 for "long range hunting"?

I think I'm seeing a pattern here.....

A pattern? like? his first comment was A 30-06 would be suitable from 400 yds in. and it is. That's what I agreed with. I have no idea what your trying to say...and yes. that moose was a large animal...but not unusual here.
 

scott7022

Nobody
I love the dynamics and physics of shooting. Long range shooting is such an art form. I separate the two from hunting although I get the argument that becoming a master shot and not taking game is kind of messed up. Don't get me wrong I have hunted, North America, Africa, Georgia (the Country) and a little varmint drops in Russia. I have nothing personally against hunting I just love animals so much it is too emotional for me. I don't mind you doing it and sharing. I drop the bad guys, you drop the tasty treats, and we all get along fine. Funny story:

Set up

The boys (hunter group) asked me to come up to a friends cabin in Northern British Columbia. Do some shooting, drink some beers and cook some meat. I am super busy but they have been asking me for years. They like when I come as I have a 12/6 license and some cool handguns the regular public can't buy or transport in Canada. So I load up with a couple thousand rounds of mixed and get all the paperwork ready. Then I remember the last time I was up and needed to perform Bear Watch on a down moose kill while they cut and dragged the thing out of the swamp. So I renewed my hunting license and tucked it in with my handguns. I didn't bring any long weapons.

The mornings and early evenings the boys went out to hunt and I spent time in camp writing. The afternoons were filled with quick draw drills, shooting skills, and general instructions on hold over and leading targets with a pistol. It was a great deal of fun.

One evening I was going through my case and found a filter that I used on my old camera. It was an expensive filter from Germany that muted infrared reflections for Black and White medium format photography. Basically it made things like fur, that absorb uv, stand out from things like leaves that reflect. A small advantage, and not worth the cost of the filter, but one of my friends broke the UV filter on his scope and it was the same diameter as this filter. I gave it to him and he tried it out the next day and liked it. The next morning he cleaned his rifle, removed the filter and cleaned the scope and added some grease to the threads and put it back on. This was done inside the cabin, in the morning over coffee.

I went with them this morning and as we drove along a cut block my friend, John, spotted some tree top movement and stopped the truck. We got out into the cold morning air and John pulled out a cow call and made some noise. I walked away from the truck and John followed. I was looking at cougar tracks following the edge of the forest service road. I waved John over and pointed out the tracks. It had rained last night and these kitty prints were big and dry in the fresh mud. We carried on about 200 yards up the forest service road and lost the tracks into the right hand side of the bush.

We moved to the left hand side, putting some space between the dense bush on the cougar side of the cut block. We reached the top of a small rise about 400 yards from the truck and 300 yards from were we saw tree top movement. I went to one knee and waved John over and pointed to another track on OUR side of the road.

Another cat print, smaller, slowly filling with water from the surrounding mud. I caught Johns eye and said " Who is hunting who?" John nodded and held up two fingers. His rifle was unslung and after signaling pulled his remote from his pocket and set off the trucks alarm.
Adam who had been napping in the rear seat of the truck bounced out of the back seat, with his rifle; his angry look fading as we frantically waved him up to us. I thought I heard movement to my left and spun to look.

As my eyes looked up the road I saw a very large moose casually walking across the road. I said, "Moose" under my breath and gestured and continued my spin to look into the deep bush to my left and the source of the sound.

John raised his rifle.

I saw nothing in the bush.

Adam broke into a sprint to our location.

I saw John take a site picture and then he pulled off his glasses tossing them to the ground. He sighted again and whispered, "Sh#&!" "Scope is fogged I can't do the shot open sights, Adam is too far away, you take the shot!" This all came out as a single sound, like a bowel movement, as he handed me his old .375H&H rifle.

I took the rifle and looked under the scope through the open sights and took aim at the moose. I applied a little bit of a holdover and fired.

The large round went in just behind the edge of the shoulder.

The moose jerked his head back and toward us, stumbled, and dropped.

I was rubbing my shoulder when Adam arrived.

We walked up to the majestic animal, watching it closely as we approached. It was stone dead. I looked at his big brown eyes, his dulap covered in pink froth and felt tears on my cheeks.
Below us to our left was a big swamp, the water chasing blue green with the rising sun. All I could thing about was Mr Moose was just heading down to the swamp to "get some" and I ruined his day.

Adam caught the fact tears were staining my cheeks. "Is the big bad solider sad he popped a moose?" He said in a very mocking tone. Young and dumb from the adrenaline rushing through his veins.

John said; "Adam, shut the f*&^ up and dress the moose before Scott decides to dress you." John knew shooting the moose would not be easy for me and he knew I dropped it for him, as a gesture of friendship.

Perhaps a little off topic. I posted it to highlight the midset differences between a hunter and a shootist. For many years and thousands of dollars I practiced and learned. Shooting sports easily become an obsession. Putting holes in targets and loading bullets with a grain or two more, this powder that powder, this round, that cartridge. Watching the groups go in and out with the precise changes. Until you get as close to perfect as you can. Then you shoot over and over and over till the muscle forms a memory that comes close to the instruments perfection. I love this grand orchestra. Animal hunters usually don't get this. Nothing wrong with that, and not a poke in anyway. Just the difference between the two creatures.
 

kojackJKU

Autism Family Travellers!
I do, because I am a certified geek. I love technology, mechanics etc. Perfection is awesome....I also am a member of PETA. People Eating Tasty Animals. I do NOT kill for sport. I kill for food. I only kill what I know I will eat, I will only take fish I know I will eat. I don't even catch and release unless they are too small to eat. Its all about the grub. I do NOT agree with trophy hunting. AT ALL. Might as well do target shooting, More satisfying. I love firearms, and shooting targets and clays. SO much fun. I also modify guns and have cerakote in my shop for changing colors, and adding protection. It's all good.
 

Dalko43

Explorer
Perhaps a little off topic. I posted it to highlight the midset differences between a hunter and a shootist. For many years and thousands of dollars I practiced and learned. Shooting sports easily become an obsession. Putting holes in targets and loading bullets with a grain or two more, this powder that powder, this round, that cartridge. Watching the groups go in and out with the precise changes. Until you get as close to perfect as you can. Then you shoot over and over and over till the muscle forms a memory that comes close to the instruments perfection. I love this grand orchestra. Animal hunters usually don't get this. Nothing wrong with that, and not a poke in anyway. Just the difference between the two creatures.

The same fundamentals apply, regardless of whether you are plinking steel or taking down game. The truly good hunters take the time to understand and master the fundamentals of marksmanship and long range ballistics. Maybe there are some who just view their rifle as a tool to be broken out and used 2-3x a year, but to be fair, there are plenty of "shootist's" who fire their weapons all the time without ever really learning how to improve and refine their skills.

Also, why were you talking about dropping "bad guys?"
 

scott7022

Nobody
The same fundamentals apply, regardless of whether you are plinking steel or taking down game. The truly good hunters take the time to understand and master the fundamentals of marksmanship and long range ballistics. Maybe there are some who just view their rifle as a tool to be broken out and used 2-3x a year, but to be fair, there are plenty of "shootist's" who fire their weapons all the time without ever really learning how to improve and refine their skills.

Also, why were you talking about dropping "bad guys?"

I agree with you that the fundamentals of shooting apply in either case. But you are missing one pivotal difference Psychology and the human condition.

A shootist is an accomplished marksman, skilled in making shots at extreme distances, or in rapid succession, or perhaps both.

A hunter has to deal with the psychological effect of killing. "Buck Fever." The fact that the brain responds to the stress stimuli by releasing adrenalin and this release has a physical effect on the central nervous system. Increased heart rate, breathing, narrowing of vision, increased difficulty in performing fine motor skill movements. These facts are why companies make gear with bigger handles, releases, etc. It is also why the militaries of the world train with human silhouette targets. It helps to desensitize the "hunter" from the psychological stresses of shooting humans.

A good training drill is to set up a course of fire. Multiple target engagement with three mag changes and one malfunction requiring an IA. Do the course of fire and measure accuracy, time, and shooters use of cover. Score as such.
Run the course of fire a second time, change when the weapon stoppage occurs and give the shooter a shot of adrenaline (bee stick epi pen) before they begin. The scoring will be drastically different and while it only simulates stress it highlights the difference between shooting and hunting.

As to your question? I think dropping bad guys is pretty clear. My last military rank was that of a Captain with an MOC031 (military occupation code) and my last job was federal law enforcement.
"The more real your training the less real your bleeding"
 

Dalko43

Explorer
I agree with you that the fundamentals of shooting apply in either case. But you are missing one pivotal difference Psychology and the human condition.

A shootist is an accomplished marksman, skilled in making shots at extreme distances, or in rapid succession, or perhaps both.

A hunter has to deal with the psychological effect of killing. "Buck Fever." The fact that the brain responds to the stress stimuli by releasing adrenalin and this release has a physical effect on the central nervous system. Increased heart rate, breathing, narrowing of vision, increased difficulty in performing fine motor skill movements. These facts are why companies make gear with bigger handles, releases, etc. It is also why the militaries of the world train with human silhouette targets. It helps to desensitize the "hunter" from the psychological stresses of shooting humans.

A good training drill is to set up a course of fire. Multiple target engagement with three mag changes and one malfunction requiring an IA. Do the course of fire and measure accuracy, time, and shooters use of cover. Score as such.
Run the course of fire a second time, change when the weapon stoppage occurs and give the shooter a shot of adrenaline (bee stick epi pen) before they begin. The scoring will be drastically different and while it only simulates stress it highlights the difference between shooting and hunting.

You're changing the topic now. I wasn't commenting on the psychology behind a killing shot (for either a soldier or hunter) and you weren't discussing that in the post I replied too. Earlier, you were talking about how "'shootist's" have to attain a certain proficiency and muscle memory that animal hunters normally don't "get." I disagree with that notion, because I know plenty of hunters who take rifle marksmanship just as seriously, if not more so, than typical "shootist's" (around here we refer to them as firearms enthusiasts or marksmen). And I know plenty of hunters, myself included, who are into long range target shooting as well.

As to your question? I think dropping bad guys is pretty clear. My last military rank was that of a Captain with an MOC031 (military occupation code) and my last job was federal law enforcement.
"The more real your training the less real your bleeding"

Congrats on that....you're one of many on this forum who have served.
 
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waveslider

Outdoorsman
It seems to me that regardless of the discipline; be it hunting, shooting, competition or tactical (if that can be counted as a discipline) there are differing levels of engagement that one can have with it. If I understood the points being made it was that you shouldn't automatically assume that just because one is a hunter, they are proficient in weapons and shooting. And just because one is a shooter, you shouldn't assume automatically that they are a good hunter.

I've seen people that qualify as expert in both, and others that hardly qualify as competent in either.

As a shotgun competitor for the better part of 20 years (now retired), I am certainly enjoying moving up the learning curve of the art of the rifle even if the end goal is to make me a more confident hunter (as opposed to a PRS/Tactical operator-type).
 

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