GMT-800 Suburban lift options?

Burb One

Adventurer
Martin I think if you get near 3" on the front crank you'll be on the bump stops and your ride will go to crap as you lose - ? word escapes me right now, rebound?

but related, there's a great idea / tip related to that max extension on the factory shocks -

http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...ster-2004-Suburban-2500?p=2003715#post2003715

It's adding 4 fenderwashers on the top bolt of the front shock, before the bushing, which adds a 1/2" of extension to your shocks by shifting the top mounting position lower. THere's plenty of threadspace at the top, shim it all out.

Agreed, I was cranked in the front for a long time, and limited it myself to 1.5-ish inches. IMO anything more than that and you will break a CV. Getting 2-3 is possible, but now you're sacrificing reliability. My level put the foam part of the bumpstops (or rather "jounce bumpers" (they are an integral part of the suspension, and provide for at least some semblance of a variable rate to the torsion bars as they compress)) were maybe 1/4 of an inch from touching the stops. The CV angle, there, is acceptable in my opinion. I abused the truck and never broke a CV with those angle. On my 6" lift, I am at that same angle.

IMO, the RCX kit is $999 on sale, for the ~$400-ish (or a little less is you piece it together) it is to go with the leveling kits I think it's worth it to save or spend the extra and just go with the larger diff drop kits. If you don't want 6 inches, crank it down to 4-5 inches, and now you have that valuable extra ground clearance, not being overly tall big, and have STOCK CV angles. Mine is cranked to ~5.5 inches, causing a little bit worse than stock CV angles but also acceptable.

I'll see if I can scrounge up some pictures when it was leveled.
 
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Martinjmpr

Wiffleball Batter
IMO, the RCX kit is $999 on sale, for the ~$400-ish (or a little less is you piece it together) it is to go with the leveling kits I think it's worth it to save or spend the extra and just go with the larger diff drop kits. If you don't want 6 inches, crank it down to 4-5 inches, and now you have that valuable extra ground clearance, not being overly tall big, and have STOCK CV angles. Mine is cranked to ~5.5 inches, causing a little bit worse than stock CV angles but also acceptable.

I'll see if I can scrounge up some pictures when it was leveled.
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Are you talking about this one?
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http://www.roughcountry.com/gm-suspension-lift-kit-279n2.html
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Because that's WAY more lift than I need/want. Remember my truck is first and foremost a tow vehicle. And for that kind of $$ I'd just ditch the Torsion Bars and go with the coilovers anyway.
 

Burb One

Adventurer
Yes that's the one.

Almost all of the 6-7 inch lifts are really 4-5 inch diff drop/knuckle lifts, that then crank up to the max height to make that marketable number.

The limitation stock, is not the amount of height available to adjust via the torsion bars or via that coil over option. it's the limitation of the CV axles.

Cranking the bars, adding those coilovers, etc. will all do the same thing (except the coilovers will ride nicer). They both change the cv angle for the same given height, because the diff stays still. If you are talking about 2-3 inch crank stock or with keys (or using those coilovers) your CV angles will suffer. (To answer the question on the first page of the thread, yes cranking to 3" in the front is possible, but not a good thing, the CV's will break.)

That is why, I think, a diff drop lift kit like the RCX, de-leveled as much as possible, which will give you ~4 inches of lift, would be your best option, as you get the height, but not too much, and most importantly at 4 inches of lift you CV axles will be at a stock, or better, angle as the diff is dropped the 4 inches added on the hub/knuckle side. With the 2-3" of lift from the crank or coils you are talking about without your diff dropped, your CV angles will be hurting.


My vehicle spends ~20% of its mileage towing an 18 foot 6000lb trailer, and does fine, with 33's (285/75/16) and 5.5 inches of lift. With smaller tires(if you go to 33's or bigger I'd recommend 4.10's, but this isn't caused by the lift options, just the tire size) and the lift only set to ~4 inches your truck will tow great. 4-5 inches of lift on these trucks, with how big they are, doesn't make too much of a difference. Even with my 5.5 and 33's i am barely taller than some of the 2500hd's.

Just wanted to let you know my experience. I originally got the cranked kit thinking I was going to get 2 or 3 inches, which I then learned off road, was going to be unreliable, so I decranked it to 1.5" and just enough to fit 33's and lived with it for 3 or 4 years. I then moved to the RCX 6". In retrospect, could have saved the $400 from the crank, and put it towards almost half the cost of the RCX.

Edit:
Options as I see it:
Option 1: Crank/coilover 1.5" to get some but not all the stance/ height or fit larger tires with Decent CV angle ($400)
Option 2: Crank/coilover 3" to get stance and height you want, but with bad CV angles ($400)
Option 3: Diffdrop/ knuckle 6" kit, de cranked to 4" to get the stance and height you want with perfect CV angles ($1000)
Option 4: Diffdrop/ knuckle 6" kit, cranked to 5.5" to get a taller stance and height with decent CV angles ($1000)

Any inch of ground clearance you can get for these things off road is gold, and you aren't sacrificing too much ride quality wise (actually the ride will be better with a decranked lift as the torsion bars wont be cranked as much for the given amount of lift, so won't be as stiff) so towing won't be hurt much, if at all. (Actually my suburban tows better with the lift than the crank, but that may be because I added the $50-100 kicker bars and steering stabilizer, and got an alignment after install, which was it's first in 30k miles.) The cost isn't too bad either, i just don't want someone else in a similar boat to me, make the same mistake of having to spend the money twice.
Hope it helps, I was there a few years ago and it's all a tough choice! I know everyone's got different uses, but ours seem very similar being some tow vehicle, some adventure vehicle.
 
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Martinjmpr

Wiffleball Batter
Yes that's the one.

...

Hope it helps, I was there a few years ago and it's all a tough choice! I know everyone's got different uses, but ours seem very similar being some tow vehicle, some adventure vehicle.
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I hear what you're saying and I appreciate the advice - you're basically saying "buy the best and cry once vs. buy the cheapest and cry a lot. ;)
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But, as I said, one objection I had to the coilover option was cost. So let me throw this out there: If I went with the coilovers, would I still need to do the diff drop if I got coilovers that would only give me maybe 3" of lift? I'd almost rather do that than get the big ugly "bro brackets."
 

justcuz

Explorer
My brother in law has a 2004 Suburban with this kit in it running 34" tires. I think his wheel offset is not correct because his goes through unit bearings frequently.

My option if I wanted that much lift would be,

Home built and designed, using a Dodge AAM 9.25 or Dana 44 front axle, coil springs with early Ford twin I beam spring buckets, radius arms with a panhard rod. 3 link design like the new Power Wagon and early F100/F150 mono beam. 14 bolt H2 8 lug 5 link rear axle or GM 6 lug 5 link 14 bolt.

This idea has already been done by a fellow on Pirate with a early style leaf sprung Suburban. He used a Dodge 1/2 ton coil sprung Dana 44 with GM 6 lug unit bearings.

Actually 6 lug 5 link semi-float 14 bolts are more plentiful than H2 rear axles, so in retrospect I would probably stick with the 6 lugs. The H2 rear axle is a little wider too but with the lift it would have negligible effect.
 
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Burb One

Adventurer
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I hear what you're saying and I appreciate the advice - you're basically saying "buy the best and cry once vs. buy the cheapest and cry a lot. ;)
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But, as I said, one objection I had to the coilover option was cost. So let me throw this out there: If I went with the coilovers, would I still need to do the diff drop if I got coilovers that would only give me maybe 3" of lift? I'd almost rather do that than get the big ugly "bro brackets."

I would think anything that gives >2 inches of lift, with the stock relationship between the wheel hub and diff(so no diff drop) would be suspect off road from a reliability standpoint. As you mentioned in another discussion we've had, you and I seem to think things out a little more than the average person lifting these trucks in the hopes of "doing it right" and from that standpoint, anything over 2" changing the CV angle and not changing the relationship between the hub and diff would be something I would start to worry about. The fact we do go off road and of which I am sure 99% of these trucks cranked to max angles never make it past the parking lot, so those huge CV angles are fine, but not so much for us. If you do crank (or do the coilovers as you mention) I'd limit myself to 2" of lift, 1.5" being ideal (basically enough to fit larger tires). Maybe that's enough lift for you? You could definitely fit 33's or stay slightly smaller tires and with 1.5-2 inches lift, maybe that's enough for what you want and I can't argue with the cost (I was there), I just want to forworn you about wanting more than that 2" when your going to sink half the cost of going to the other kit.

With anything over 2", my thoughts, where, what's the point of the lift, if in ever position I'm in where I actually need the lift, I've got to worry about my CV's, more than I already did?...

I'll get some pictures of the truck, the "bro" brackets are actually not as noticeable as you would think . I'm sure with 35's or 37's and cranked to the sky, they are much more noticeable, but at a reasonable height, you almost don't see them.


justcuz-
Correct me if I'm wrong and you find something different, but when I did my research, (I called ORD thinking about the SAS bolt on kit instead of the diff drop a year ago), they do not have a suburban 1500 IFS to SAS conversion for the GMT800. Apparently the way the front chassis is, they did a few of them and everyone has vibrations in the front end. They stopped selling/making them and only do 2500 IFS to SAS. Nothings stopping from custom fab, but $ signs starting getting larger. I actually do like the IFS too. I don't rock crawl this thing, and it is very nice to drive on the roads and washouts. I'm thinking of a coilover conversion, and the IFS with that (instead of the single rate torsion bars) it will ride even nicer.

I did throw in a 14 bolt 6lug SF rear, and it's awesome and was 99% bolt on except the parking brake. Don't ever have to worry about the stock g80 breaking at my stock power level and 33's like I did with the 10bolt.
 
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justcuz

Explorer
I edited the ORD stuff out because it is for GMT 400 stuff only.

Surprisingly Dana 44 front axles from 1/2 ton Dodges are cheap, 6 lug unit bearings are reused if good. Coil spring buckets and lift springs again cheap. McCustomize with his Silverado made some nice radius arms that tie into his trans crossmember with some beefing. Panhard rod and tie rod can be reused from the Dodge application. Only a frame bracket need be made for the upper panhard mount.

I am a scrounger and a junkyard dog, with more brains than disposable income. I could build the coil sprung Dodge solid axle cheaper than that kit.

Maintaining IFS is nice for the ride, don't get me wrong, but if ground clearance was my goal for off roading I would take a page out of the off road racing playbook and install CV joints at both ends of the axle, leave the differential up high in the frame and use taller spindles. The double CV axles can play at greater angles safely and live, taller spindles will net you more travel with less camber change through its arc and you can maintain the stock differential, A arms and steering locations.

I will never run more than 33" tires on my newer K1500 IFS Suburbans or 35" tires on a K2500, so I'm good with modified stock suspension.

What was the issue with the parking brake? I've done two of these now and reused the old parking brake cable. One was GMT 400 with drums and the other was GMT 800 with discs.

One last thing to add, before I would shell out cash for a new lift kit, I would scour Craigslist and your local Recycler for a used one.
Guys sell them cheap all the time, when they convert to SAS.
 
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rayra

Expedition Leader
justcuz, I've been digging around online looking for affordable ford keys, and the best info I can come up with says what is needed are 1997-2003 F-150 keys. And I can't seem to find out if it matters if it's 2WD or 4WD, can you confirm or add anything to that?

Even at rockauto I couldn't find anything lower than $100. And many much more. But I've just found an ebay seller offering a pair of new ford keys in the year range above, but also adding lift, with the pair priced at $40. I'm tempted to go for those, but I'm not sure they'll index properly, 1" over stock 1500 PLUS another 1"+ built into the key for its intended application. Might not even be mountable.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1997-2003-F...m27cf175496:m:mJBv_jhMkWJeiM3562RAkcg&vxp=mtr

It's going to be a couple weeks before I can hit my local junkyards and I'm not even sure I'll find them or be able to recover the parts if I do (the way our auto yards prop up the vehicles may prevent my getting the keys out). I'm going for other parts anyway, the trip won't be a waste, but if I don't find what I want there I'd like to be lined up to pull the trigger on something else if I come back empty handed.
 

rayra

Expedition Leader
Just found this guy's topic, he seems to have 'successfully' installed the Ford LIFT keys on his Z71 Tahoe, although I don't like the look of his key bolt angle, but don't think it matters, as the crosspiece / trunion is curved, in a round hole. Don't think it matters how it sits.

And his stance is certainly quite tall, but I have to figure he's on the stops, though he doesn't say and his crowd doesn't ask. But it sure looks like what Martin is after.

He's reporting 3.25" of lift out of them. He seems to be on 285s


http://z71tahoe-suburban.com/iboard/lofiversion/index.php?t37585.html

dw3v9i.jpg
f53j8n.jpg
9sfkmh.jpg
 
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justcuz

Explorer
The 97-03 Ford keys would be from a 4x4. The 2wd Fords of that era used a coil spring front suspension.
The pictures of that Tahoe look like it is lifted pretty high. Without a picture of the front suspension or front drive axles there is no way to tell if it is maxed out or not
 

rayra

Expedition Leader
well I'll probably go sign up there, and try to contact him for more info and maybe a pic. Or steer him here.


Just as an idea, I did the rough math on trying to turn the key, just to learn the obvious. The torsion bar end is a hex, so each increment is 60deg. The key is at least 6" in radius. The key pad where the adjustment bolt drives against it is moved almost an inch from stock GM 1500 to stock Ford 4x and seems another inch on the Ford 4x Lift. Take the radius / moment arm, double for the dia, x pi, ~38"circumference, an 1" of arc along that circle is roughly 10deg. So going to the Ford Lift key is about 20deg of rotation on the torsion bar / lower control arm, without any bolt adjustment. Resulting in the reported 3"+? No idea how much bolt adjustment is added to get that, he seems to say he got more with bolt turns. And the stock step to standard Ford 4x key is 1-1.5" + more in adjustment. So call it a very rough 1" of lift per 10deg of rotation.

All that was trying to figure out if I could use the Ford 4x Lift key and re-index it one increment off, or do the reverse with the stock key. Just nothing near enough adjustment room either way. At 60deg it's about twice as much as can be accommodated. Or would take a very long bolt. If it was a 12-sided bar / key, my idea would work. It would be 30deg and a re-index and a slightly longer bolt would get it done, stock might even reach.


I could conceivably go to the Ford 4x Lift key and take OUT adjustment, basically practically drop it to the carrier/stop, put just enough turns on the adjustment bolt so the key rests on the bolt and not the carrier/stop. I'd get all the height increase just from the key itself, with almost no turns on the bolt. and net maybe 2", which suits me fine.

I've got to see if I can get that torsion takeup tool. In my driveway I've used a floor jack and a thick deep socket to push the key up off the carrier / stop. Wouldn't recommend that, but it worked. At my junkyards the vehicles are elevated high off a concrete pad on 10-12" dia pipe segments with square plate bottoms. And often the front suspension is on them so the engines are clear to access. So getting a torsion bar key out is gonna be difficult. Don't fancy taking a battery-powered sawzall to a loaded T-bar either. Fast trip to an ER.

/idle ruminations. Being cheap is hard work. Heh.


YouTube has lots of tips and tricks for the driveway mechanic. SO much easier doing this stuff than it used to be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbQFezZllDs


Nice sales vid on the SuspensionMaxx kit, includes differential lowering bushings to rectify the CV angles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMZaqrFRM3c
 
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justcuz

Explorer
Have you looked at the Pick a Part on 395 north of Adelanto?

Take a look at the last 3 pages of Jacks 2007 Chevy build. I posted torsion key pictures and there is more info on bars and keys there.

I have some green bars that I got from a K2500 extra cab long bed GMT400 a while back. The bars in my Suburban I suspect are XL bars. They are the second lightest spring rate bar GM makes. I may put them in my 2000 Suburban.

My family's 92 Blazer, 93 Suburban and 93 K2500 light duty pick up all have green bars in them and I am happy with them.

I will still pick up a set of Ford keys, just in case.

If you search GM torsion bars 401, it takes you to an informative page with GM torsion bar part numbers and weight capacities.
 

rayra

Expedition Leader
Adelanto's a bit of a drive, but I might end up out that way if I ever wind up helping out pappawheely on his UHaul conversion. I'm working the yards down in Sun Valley / San Fernando. Only takes me about 20mins to get down there from Santa Clarita.

I saw your stacked key image, it's very useful. It's what made me wonder if the Ford 4Wd Lift key would even work at all. It doesn't seem like it would even clear the carrier / stop.


eta - thanks for all the info / help you've been providing, if I didn't say it before. Reading the 401 page now.
 
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Burb One

Adventurer
justcuz, I've been digging around online looking for affordable ford keys, and the best info I can come up with says what is needed are 1997-2003 F-150 keys. And I can't seem to find out if it matters if it's 2WD or 4WD, can you confirm or add anything to that?

Even at rockauto I couldn't find anything lower than $100. And many much more. But I've just found an ebay seller offering a pair of new ford keys in the year range above, but also adding lift, with the pair priced at $40. I'm tempted to go for those, but I'm not sure they'll index properly, 1" over stock 1500 PLUS another 1"+ built into the key for its intended application. Might not even be mountable.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1997-2003-F...m27cf175496:m:mJBv_jhMkWJeiM3562RAkcg&vxp=mtr

It's going to be a couple weeks before I can hit my local junkyards and I'm not even sure I'll find them or be able to recover the parts if I do (the way our auto yards prop up the vehicles may prevent my getting the keys out). I'm going for other parts anyway, the trip won't be a waste, but if I don't find what I want there I'd like to be lined up to pull the trigger on something else if I come back empty handed.

If you are going to crank and want the proper angles for the key, just buy the proper aftermarket keys on ebay. They are cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Torsion-Key...ash=item41a207f9cb:g:jXUAAOSwSdZWeD9r&vxp=mtr


Edit: Also that busing for the differential is interesting! Never seen that before. May be a good option for Martin, as it may be able to give him that 2.5" he wantswithout the angles getting too bad. The bushings looks like lowers the diff by 3/4"! Only worry for me would then be knocking the aluminum case diff on things as it may then be even lower than the support/ cross members. Would just have to make or get a small skid guard made.
 
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