lighting experts

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
LED's are not for distance?

CTL-CPZ810_beam.png


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http://www.visionxusa.com/shop/8-7-light-cannon/


I think that people who say the LED are not for distance are thinking LED bars, not actual spots. LED (the actual diodes) are very directional, and with newer leds and a properly designed reflector, it is possible to have ridiculously long throw.

Hell, even flashlights can have ridiculously long throw. Take a look at some of these (Nitecore Tiny Monster):

http://www.nitecore.co.uk/Shop/Products/Monster.html
 

Chris85xlt

Adventurer
I recommend you check out Baja Designs.

I have both the Rigid Dually (spot and fog) and Baja Designs Squadron and hands down the Baja Designs blows the Rigid away for distance, lumens, color and pattern.

Another advantage is Baja Designs can be taken apart to replace/change the lens in case it was damaged or just want a different light pattern, and you can splice the harness without voiding warranty.

Baja Designs Racer Edition are built for speeds of 110+ mph
 
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4x4junkie

Explorer
LED's are not for distance?

http://www.visionxusa.com/shop/8-7-light-cannon/


I think that people who say the LED are not for distance are thinking LED bars, not actual spots. LED (the actual diodes) are very directional, and with newer leds and a properly designed reflector, it is possible to have ridiculously long throw.

Hell, even flashlights can have ridiculously long throw. Take a look at some of these (Nitecore Tiny Monster):

http://www.nitecore.co.uk/Shop/Products/Monster.html

I agree the optics on LED bars do leave tons to be desired, however good optics (and lumens) still cannot overcome the spectral deficiencies of the extremely high color-temperature LED chips all LED light manufacturers seem intent on using (yes, Vision-X and Baja Designs too).

A great example of this is a 2200 lumen Olight "flashlight" a buddy of mine has (the thing is much too big & heavy to use as a flashlight lol)... It looks well-made and has good clear optics (about 5" round). Putting it side-by-side with my old Brinkmann Q-Beam Max Million 100w plug-in halogen spotlight, both throw what appears at first glance to be very similar amounts of light onto a distant hillside. However everything in his beam is almost colorless and lacks contrast whereas with mine you can much more quickly make out the texture of the hillside (distinguishing large dark-colored rocks from bushes, dirt from dry grass, etc.).
Up close however, his light is much more intense and glaring than mine is, giving the illusion that it's actually brighter.
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
So, a preference of colour temperature rather than lack of throw duly noted. But your buddy's torch (UK name perhaps a better fit, lol) is not a (n offroad) headlight. BTW, Nitecore's Tiny Monsters goes up to about 4000 lumens, and throws about a kilometer. They don't give the illusion of being bright, they actually are bright as hell. A good torch doesn't scatter light (but cheap (and most expensive) light-bars does).
 

paranoid56

Adventurer
LED's are not for distance?

CTL-CPZ810_beam.png


CTL-CPZ810_web.png


http://www.visionxusa.com/shop/8-7-light-cannon/


I think that people who say the LED are not for distance are thinking LED bars, not actual spots. LED (the actual diodes) are very directional, and with newer leds and a properly designed reflector, it is possible to have ridiculously long throw.

Hell, even flashlights can have ridiculously long throw. Take a look at some of these (Nitecore Tiny Monster):

http://www.nitecore.co.uk/Shop/Products/Monster.html

exactly, to many old people that are unwilling to change lol. theres a reason that every top baja team that are all doing over 100mph are all using LEDs. I also started with halogen, then moved to HID, HID was awesome and so much better then halogen (will never go back unless i cant find a good retrofit) now its LED.
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
So, a preference of colour temperature rather than lack of throw duly noted. But your buddy's torch (UK name perhaps a better fit, lol) is not a (n offroad) headlight. BTW, Nitecore's Tiny Monsters goes up to about 4000 lumens, and throws about a kilometer. They don't give the illusion of being bright, they actually are bright as hell. A good torch doesn't scatter light (but cheap (and most expensive) light-bars does).

And neither is my Q-Beam an offroad headlight... Your point?

Color temperature itself is not the issue here (similar-temp HID lights do not glare anything like LEDs do), it's a deficiency in the technology that is phosphor-based LEDs.

As color temp is shifted higher, LEDs develop a very narrow & intense output spike deep in the blue end of the spectrum (~450nm). Human eyes simply cannot process this light as well as they can green, yellow, or red light. When light power is concentrated very narrowly at short wavelengths like this, the result is increased glare (and of course the loss of color rendering too).

creeSPD1.gif


A way to demonstrate this for yourself is if you have a couple electronic devices, one having a deep-blue LED digital readout, the other a similar-size yellow or red LED readout (temp display on a portable fridge, a LED battery monitor/voltmeter, channel display on a cable/satellite TV box or CB radio, etc.)... As you move away from the display, you'll notice a blue readout blurs into a glare much sooner than a red one does, like your eyes have difficulty focusing on it or something. I know it's not just my eyes either, because most everyone I know has said they can read a red LED display from a greater distance than a blue LED one too.


And to the fellow saying I don't want to change... lol You could not be any more wrong there. I would love to get rid of my power-guzzling halogen lights for some nice LEDs, but only if they worked at least as good as my halogens do. They don't, so I don't (and HID is out due to 2-way radio interference concerns). But you can keep believing all the nifty little marketing gimmicks that LED offroad light manufacturers use to try to convince us how massive lumens and "Super White" and/or "Daylight" LEDs are somehow better though... Clearly they seem to be working on some.
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
to many old people that are unwilling to change lol.
Your ignorance may be exceeded only by your arrogance. And it's "too," not "to." And from a purely grammatical standpoint, it should be "who" rather than "that."
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
And neither is my Q-Beam an offroad headlight... Your point?
Your point being?


Color temperature itself is not the issue here (similar-temp HID lights do not glare anything like LEDs do), it's a deficiency in the technology that is phosphor-based LEDs.

It was an issue a couple of posts ago.
The "glare" you experience is most likely just a focused beam, with very little scatter.


As color temp is shifted higher, LEDs develop a very narrow & intense output spike deep in the blue end of the spectrum (~450nm). Human eyes simply cannot process this light as well as they can green, yellow, or red light. When light power is concentrated very narrowly at short wavelengths like this, the result is increased glare (and of course the loss of color rendering too).

creeSPD1.gif
Depending on the light, you can have colour rendering with LEDs too. But at high speeds at night, you don't really need that much colour rendering, you need to see if there are holes, if there are rocks in the way, and which way to go.


A way to demonstrate this for yourself is if you have a couple electronic devices, one having a deep-blue LED digital readout, the other a similar-size yellow or red LED readout (temp display on a portable fridge, a LED battery monitor/voltmeter, channel display on a cable/satellite TV box or CB radio, etc.)... As you move away from the display, you'll notice a blue readout blurs into a glare much sooner than a red one does, like your eyes have difficulty focusing on it or something. I know it's not just my eyes either, because most everyone I know has said they can read a red LED display from a greater distance than a blue LED one too.
I know that there are differences on what can be seen with a red LED, a blue LED, and a green LED (Green is the best as to readability, as your eye is most sensitive to green). But we're not talking about those types of things, are we now?
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
Your point being?

You tell me... You brought up the headlight thing as if it had some sort of relevance...


It was an issue a couple of posts ago.
The "glare" you experience is most likely just a focused beam, with very little scatter.
No it wasn't.
And both beams were actually almost the exact same size. Seems to me less scatter would also = less glare, but that definitely wasn't the case.


Depending on the light, you can have colour rendering with LEDs too. But at high speeds at night, you don't really need that much colour rendering, you need to see if there are holes, if there are rocks in the way, and which way to go.
The problem isn't color rendering as it is the intense concentration of deep blue light shown on the graph I posted (and is why I brought up the blue LED display example). The glare that narrow concentration of light creates makes holes & rocks harder to discern at 80+ mph.
And is there a problem with having good color rendering anyway? Does removal of color somehow make you see better? I certainly don't think so...

I know that there are differences on what can be seen with a red LED, a blue LED, and a green LED (Green is the best as to readability, as your eye is most sensitive to green). But we're not talking about those types of things, are we now?

No, I'm referring to amount of glare produced by light within different parts of the spectrum. The eye indeed is much more sensitive to green light than blue. Yet a 5000°K CCT LED has a fraction of the light power in the green (as well as yellow & red) parts of the spectrum as it has blue. Because blue (and of course violet too) creates the glare it does, it reduces the eye's ability to discern objects given the tiny amount of green to red light that is available.

Just try it. Find anything with a blue LED digital display (do you have an ARB fridge by chance? I think those have a blue LED temp readout?). See how far away you can make out the numbers on it from. Then find something with a similar red or yellow display and do the same. That same blurring you see in the blue display is what occurs because of the spike of blue light in the beam of a high-CCT LED light. Certainly that is what my eyes experience anyway (and those of many others I've asked too).
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
You tell me... You brought up the headlight thing as if it had some sort of relevance...
I thought you somehow disagreed with me about headlights and LEDs, but apparently not.



No it wasn't.
Oh, yes it was:

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/159577-lighting-experts?p=2109344#post2109344


And both beams were actually almost the exact same size. Seems to me less scatter would also = less glare, but that definitely wasn't the case.
And you eyed that? I think we're talking about different things when we talk about glare. I think you're confusing "really strong/harsh point light" with "glare".


The problem isn't color rendering as it is the intense concentration of deep blue light shown on the graph I posted (and is why I brought up the blue LED display example). The glare that narrow concentration of light creates makes holes & rocks harder to discern at 80+ mph.
You forget that when offroading, you don't only a use a single, very focused beam to navigate the dark at 80+ mph. As for colour rendering for a light that can light up a kilometer, or even "merely" 500 metres, you don't need perfect colour rendering at that distance.

And is there a problem with having good color rendering anyway? Does removal of color somehow make you see better? I certainly don't think so...
I actually agree with the first part: That there isn't a problem with colour rendering. But the latter part is actually wrong. If it's darkish, your retina uses more of the B/W sensors, which means shades, not colours. That is why a red tent in the dark could just as well be black. The colour you see first at any given lumen is green (i.e. the colour stalks in your retina can sense green before, say, red or yellow). So, during the night, without anything but moonlight, you mostly use the B/W stalks. You "navigate" by way of different shades and contrast.


No, I'm referring to amount of glare produced by light within different parts of the spectrum. The eye indeed is much more sensitive to green light than blue. Yet a 5000°K CCT LED has a fraction of the light power in the green (as well as yellow & red) parts of the spectrum as it has blue. Because blue (and of course violet too) creates the glare it does, it reduces the eye's ability to discern objects given the tiny amount of green to red light that is available.
And thus it is argued that in theory, and if you give the numbers you give more credence than it warrants, then you'd be right. LEDs have come a long way from where the almost-police-blue is dominant.


Just try it. Find anything with a blue LED digital display (do you have an ARB fridge by chance? I think those have a blue LED temp readout?). See how far away you can make out the numbers on it from. Then find something with a similar red or yellow display and do the same. That same blurring you see in the blue display is what occurs because of the spike of blue light in the beam of a high-CCT LED light. Certainly that is what my eyes experience anyway (and those of many others I've asked too).
A blue LED display is using blue LEDs, so unless you try to make the strawman that I'm arguing that we should use headlights with BLUE LEDs, talk about a blue LED display is really not pertaining to this discussion. Headlights (offroad or legal) are not made with blue LEDs.
 
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kojackJKU

Autism Family Travellers!
LED's are not for distance?

CTL-CPZ810_beam.png


CTL-CPZ810_web.png


http://www.visionxusa.com/shop/8-7-light-cannon/


I think that people who say the LED are not for distance are thinking LED bars, not actual spots. LED (the actual diodes) are very directional, and with newer leds and a properly designed reflector, it is possible to have ridiculously long throw.

Hell, even flashlights can have ridiculously long throw. Take a look at some of these (Nitecore Tiny Monster):

http://www.nitecore.co.uk/Shop/Products/Monster.html


Yes When I say LED is crap...I mean the light bars. Pretty well none of them have any optics to toss light far. Even the uber expensive ones. The cannons are a whole other ball of wax! BUT damn, they's spendy!
 

Hilldweller

SE Expedition Society
If you're looking for any sort of distance, forget about LED. LEDs are best left for close-up lighting, or simply just to dazzle all your friends with their massively-intense (read: glaring) bluish light output. Both halogen and HID (<4500°K) lights trump LED by huge margins for distance range.

I've always liked Hella. Their Rallye 4000 & 4000c lights are probably among the best lights your money can buy. The euro driving beam pattern is probably the one you'd want to best be able to see large animals in the road. Certainly the 4000s are a tad bigger than those little LED cubes you were looking at, however good performance does not come in tiny packages.

https://www.amazon.com/HELLA-H12560021-Rallye-4000-Halogen/dp/B0002M9T30
https://www.amazon.com/HELLA-009094181-Compact-Halogen-Driving/dp/B000H0RBY6

I don't have reason to suspect amber LED lights couldn't satisfy your #2 requirement, though you do need something that has a good (sharp) horizontal cutoff above center to be effective (a.k.a.: "Fog" beam pattern, which is low to the road and spreads wide). The page for those Rigid lights just says "20° flood", which is no bueno in fog/whiteout conditions.
Gotta say I agree with this.

I agree the optics on LED bars do leave tons to be desired, however good optics (and lumens) still cannot overcome the spectral deficiencies of the extremely high color-temperature LED chips all LED light manufacturers seem intent on using (yes, Vision-X and Baja Designs too).

A great example of this is a 2200 lumen Olight "flashlight" a buddy of mine has (the thing is much too big & heavy to use as a flashlight lol)... It looks well-made and has good clear optics (about 5" round). Putting it side-by-side with my old Brinkmann Q-Beam Max Million 100w plug-in halogen spotlight, both throw what appears at first glance to be very similar amounts of light onto a distant hillside. However everything in his beam is almost colorless and lacks contrast whereas with mine you can much more quickly make out the texture of the hillside (distinguishing large dark-colored rocks from bushes, dirt from dry grass, etc.).
Up close however, his light is much more intense and glaring than mine is, giving the illusion that it's actually brighter.
CRI, Color Rendering Index ---- LED is about a 74 and Halogen a 99 or better. Also less perceived glare with halogen, SPD (spectral power distribution) is better.


So, a preference of colour temperature rather than lack of throw duly noted. But your buddy's torch (UK name perhaps a better fit, lol) is not a (n offroad) headlight. BTW, Nitecore's Tiny Monsters goes up to about 4000 lumens, and throws about a kilometer. They don't give the illusion of being bright, they actually are bright as hell. A good torch doesn't scatter light (but cheap (and most expensive) light-bars does).
There are good LED driving and foglights but they're pricey. And LED is perceived as 30% brighter than it actually is due to the poor SPD.


I'm thinking that the OP might like one of Hella's very capable projectors if he wants to mount it in a bumper.
This plus this is a Hella-bright combination for supplemental highbeams. Classy too.
The highbeam version of this is nifty too with a good H9 bulb like this.

Don't buy amber anything for driving. Amber is a signal color period. If you like yellow, and I do too, get selective yellow. The yellow bulbs all suck so you'll have to look for a tinted lens or tint it yourself with Duplicolor Metalcast Yellow spray paint. (it works great)
 

Pilat

Tossing ewoks on Titan
Moving goal posts once again. Now it's because they're pricey.
As for perception judging them to be 30% brighter: First of all, you can actually measure things - you don't have to rely on perception. Secondly, since that "30%" is about perception, that percentage is - at best - a guesstimate.

As for the SPD, yes, halogens are better if you, say, want to light a painting or a colour photography, but we're not talking about that, are we? Blue leds are better for showing blood, that doesn't mean it's better for a driving light.
 
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4x4junkie

Explorer

There's no mention in that post anything whatsoever about an issue with (or preference of) color temperature (you are confusing what I said... What I said the issue was (putting it another way), the Spectral Power Distribution of very high color temperature LEDs is extremely poor).


And you eyed that? I think we're talking about different things when we talk about glare. I think you're confusing "really strong/harsh point light" with "glare".
No I am referring to strong light from reflections on nearby objects (or the road in front of you) and lack of contrast & intensity where the light beam falls in the distance.


You forget that when offroading, you don't only a use a single, very focused beam to navigate the dark at 80+ mph. As for colour rendering for a light that can light up a kilometer, or even "merely" 500 metres, you don't need perfect colour rendering at that distance.
The thought never entered my mind that anyone typically uses anything less than a pair of lights... (and when focused spot beams are utilized it's often together with the high beams).

I actually agree with the first part: That there isn't a problem with colour rendering. But the latter part is actually wrong. If it's darkish, your retina uses more of the B/W sensors, which means shades, not colours. That is why a red tent in the dark could just as well be black. The colour you see first at any given lumen is green (i.e. the colour stalks in your retina can sense green before, say, red or yellow). So, during the night, without anything but moonlight, you mostly use the B/W stalks. You "navigate" by way of different shades and contrast.
Not sure how a question can be wrong... But typically one likes to have much more light than moonlight when they are traveling 80+ MPH, simply because the "B/W sensors" in your eye (they're called "Rods") don't provide good (or fast) enough visual feedback when driving that fast. So that is why we put big bright lights on our vehicles.


And thus it is argued that in theory, and if you give the numbers you give more credence than it warrants, then you'd be right. LEDs have come a long way from where the almost-police-blue is dominant.
The SPD chart I posted is of a fairly modern LED. Last I checked, technology has not advanced very much on single-phosphor LEDs of the type being discussed here (most advancements have been in lower-CCT LEDs of the type used for household lighting).


A blue LED display is using blue LEDs, so unless you try to make the strawman that I'm arguing that we should use headlights with BLUE LEDs, talk about a blue LED display is really not pertaining to this discussion. Headlights (offroad or legal) are not made with blue LEDs.

Yes they are. "White" LEDs are infact blue LEDs. The phosphor coating is what produces their white color (and is why they have the intense spike of blue they have, that is blue light not converted by the phosphor).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#Phosphor-based_LEDs


CRI, Color Rendering Index ---- LED is about a 74 and Halogen a 99 or better. Also less perceived glare with halogen, SPD (spectral power distribution) is better.
I think you're giving them too much credit. Most 5000°K+ LEDs are 70 or less CRI according to documents such as the one I pulled that SPD chart from.

And LED is perceived as 30% brighter than it actually is due to the poor SPD.
Which I suspect also triggers your pupils to constrict more, further reducing the light's effectiveness.


Don't buy amber anything for driving. Amber is a signal color period. If you like yellow, and I do too, get selective yellow. The yellow bulbs all suck so you'll have to look for a tinted lens or tint it yourself with Duplicolor Metalcast Yellow spray paint. (it works great)

I forgot about selective yellow... Yes, that would be what to get. Unfortunately not available in LED though (and using the paint you mention on a 5000K+ LED lamp I suspect would cut it's brightness by 60% or more since about all they are is blue light).

Moving goal posts once again. Now it's because they're pricey.

No goalpost was moved. I think Hilldweller was simply adding another point to the argument is all (which I cannot disagree, they are very overpriced given their poor SPD performance).
Why you seem to have something against being able to see what is in front of you more naturally (in color) while driving I'm not quite sure I understand, but I think it's safe to say that I'm not the only one who would prefer to see things that way. :)
 

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