Help, trouble shooting solar/battery system

I just took my newly setup electrical system on a test run and failed. So I am looking for any suggestions of things to test/how to test them.

I have a 155ah deep cycle agm battery as my house battery. It is charged through my truck's alternator while driving with a system like this
HTML:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/77503-How-to-make-a-cheap-isolated-dual-battery-setup-for-50
but with a manual on/off toggle switch between the stock fuse and the solenoid. and it is charged by a 300w solar array and matching mppt charge controller from renogy when at camp. As far as I can tell the charging end of things is working perfectly.

The problem I am having is that with nothing besides my fridge plugged in, I am draining my battery down to 50% in about 3 hours. I tested the current at the fridge and am not seeing more then 4.7 amps at any point and the amp draw should drop considerably once the fridge gets cold. According to my limited knowledge this doesn't add up. 4.7amps for 3 hours= 14.1 amps, but 155ah * 50%=77.5ah(the battery rating)

Everything in the system is new, so the only things i can think of are that the battery i purchased just isn't working properly, or the charge controller is falsely reading that the battery is full when it is not.

If anyone can tell me how to test these things with an agm battery or has any suggestions of other issues to check i would appreciate the help. Thanks.
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
How are you checking that the battery is at 50% in 3 hours? Do you have a battery monitor? voltmeter? Or are you just relying on a little status indicator LED on your solar charger?
Is the battery reaching 14.3V (or higher) during the day (and does it maintain that voltage for at least a couple hours before the sun goes down)?
 

dlh62c

Explorer
I have a 155ah deep cycle agm battery as my house battery. It is charged through my truck's alternator while driving....

....and it is charged by a 300w solar array and matching mppt charge controller from renogy when at camp.

As far as I can tell the charging end of things is working perfectly.

Is the truck battery and the house battery bank the same battery type?

Is the solar MPPT charge controller from Renogy setup/configured with a AGM charging profile to charge the house battery bank?

Batteries of different types require different charging profiles; HOW TO CHARGE AN AGM OR GELL BATTERY ALONG WITH A LEAD-ACID BATTERY.

http://yandina.com/acrobats/C160Data.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjJkkijT5WA

Sterling Power makes a Battery-To-Battery Charger that has the ability to mix on board battery types. The output charge profile is user programmable, so the output & input batteries can be different types.
 
Last edited:

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
Is the truck battery and the house battery bank the same battery type?

...
Batteries of different types require different charging profiles; HOW TO CHARGE AN AGM OR GELL BATTERY ALONG WITH A LEAD-ACID BATTERY.

Worth noting that the Yandina product seems to have a hard shutoff at 14.2v. This is below the normal charging voltage for Lifeline and many other AGM batteries at 70F/20C and well below the over 15v required at freezing. Always check the battery manufacturer's charging specification. For some of us the Yandina would be the kiss of death for our camper batteries. Might be useful for gel, although all it does is stop the charging, but I would not recommend it for AGM.
 
Thanks for the input everyone.
I have the system charging on the solar now and will start the voltage tests as soon as it is "full".

I am using a monitor attached to my charge controller to determine that the battery is discharging to 50% in three hours. The manual for said monitor sates that this % reading that it displays is based off of voltage, but I haven't checked to see what the voltage ratings are my self at any point in the charging cycle. (will post my findings later today after i do the tests)

The starter is a flooded cell and the house battery is an agm. I am getting the impression after reading your post that charging the house through the starter battery is not good in my situation. Would replacing the starter battery with an agm solve the issue, or is the problem that my stock alternator wont provide the proper charging profile for an agm?

The charge controller does have a setting for a sealed battery and the guy at renogy told me it would play nice with this specific battery when i purchased it.
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
...
The starter is a flooded cell and the house battery is an agm. I am getting the impression after reading your post that charging the house through the starter battery is not good in my situation. Would replacing the starter battery with an agm solve the issue, or is the problem that my stock alternator wont provide the proper charging profile for an agm?
...

Grossly, it all comes down to voltages; Most AGM batteries want 14.4v @ 20C - less voltage when warmer, more voltage when colder. Some modern FLA batteries want a bit more. You really have to know:

-- The charging voltage of your vehicle's alternator/regulator, and,
-- The voltage requirements of your battery.

As a practical matter:

-- There isn't much difference between the requirements of a modern FLA or AGM battery.
-- Given voltage drops in the wiring to distant camper batteries, a slightly hotter FLA voltage might be just the ticket for good AGM charging. Most of of us are more worried about achieving a high enough voltage.
-- Most of the time you will not drive your vehicle long enough to worry that much about the absorb stage. It is most important that your solar/shore charger hit the right final voltage and charge long enough to complete the process.

In the end, you simply have to take measurements on YOUR vehicle. If your vehicle is old enough it may only charge in the 13v range, hence the entire industry of battery to battery chargers (Sterling Power, CTEK, et al.) designed to boost the charging voltage to camper batteries. For most vehicles your will probably find that your charging voltage is between 14 and 14.5v which is good for most AGM batteries.
 
I just checked my alternator and got a reading of 14.17 volts. I'm pretty confident it is stock. It has the Toyota 12v sticker on it.

I checked the battery manufacturer's website ( http://www.vmaxtanks.com/SLR155-AGM-Solar-Battery-_p_66.html ) and it lists "Vehicle Alternator: 14V-15V" as a recommended charging option.

So my question regarding this is: Will i cause damage to my flooded starter battery or agm house battery by connecting them through a simple solenoid while the truck is running and the alternator is providing power? If so, will replacing the flooded starter battery with an agm starter battery solve the problem?

As far as my power loss/short battery life issue:
I talked to a Renogy representative today (great customer service by the way). He told me that the SOC reading on the meter is only accurate when the panels are in full sun, so the 50% I was looking at wasn't accurate, but that doesn't change the fact that my fridge was hitting its low voltage shutoff of 11.8v after only 3 hours.

So, i am continuing my tests.
My charge controller gave me a full reading at 10:30am, i checked the voltage with a multi meter and got 14.18 (Renogy rep says that is proper function voltage). I then unplugged the panels and am taking periodic readings for the next couple of hours. I will update here when those readings are done.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Thanks for the input everyone.
I have the system charging on the solar now and will start the voltage tests as soon as it is "full".

Half down would be 77.5ah. 300w / say 14v would be 21a. Ignoring all the rest of the math and just roughing it, you're looking at 4 hours or so to bulk charge and maybe double that for the absorb.

If that battery is halfway down, I suppose it's possible that you'll get it back to 100% in a single day with a 300w solar array...but I have my doubts. It would be a lot more possible if you could program the voltage set points of the charge controller so it pumps up the voltage to say 14.8v bulk, 14.4v absorb (good numbers for most AGM/flooded but way too high for a GEL). If it's pre-set to the very common settings of 14.4v/14.2v, then it'll take longer.


I am using a monitor attached to my charge controller to determine that the battery is discharging to 50% in three hours.

Well, I could drive a truck through what is wrong with that... :D

What kind of monitor attaches to a Renogy charge controller? Morningstar has a display unit that attaches to their charge controllers, but exactly WTH are you talking about when you say monitor attached to your charge controller?

You say you tested the fridge load and it draws <5a. How did you test it? Clamp on ammeter?

If so, then fine. Now do am amp load test on the hot wire coming off the house battery. What's the load? It's gonna have to be around 25a or more to pull that battery down 50% in 3 hours. (That is...IF that battery actually started out full in the first place, which is a BIG IF.)

Next...WHERE is the charge controller connected? If it's direct to the battery, okay, but if it's way down at the other end of the vehicle, on the same wire that is feeding the fridge, then the fridge could be pulling down the voltage (voltage drop under load) on that one circuit, and since the charge controller reads a dropped voltage, it is fooled into thinking the battery voltage is low - even if it isn't.



The starter is a flooded cell and the house battery is an agm. I am getting the impression after reading your post that charging the house through the starter battery is not good in my situation.

That's not how it works. The current to charge the house battery doesn't go through the engine battery - it goes around the engine battery.

The voltage regulator turns the alternator on and off so that the alternator supplies enough amperage to hold the voltage of the "12v bus" at whatever voltage the voltage regulator is set to - let's say 14.5v (depends on your vehicle). The batteries will suck power from the bus as best they can and by doing that will draw down the bus voltage, which will cause the voltage regulator to keep the alternator turned on. The alternator will supply however much power is being sucked out of the bus (by batteries and other loads like lights/radio/ac).

How much power will the batteries suck out of the bus? Depends on their state of charge. The engine battery will probably be at 99+% so won't be drawing much - maybe an amp, maybe less. Starting the engine uses around 1/5 of one amp*hour (or less), so it doesn't take much to top off the cranking battery.

The house battery will draw however much it can based on its internal resistance. At 50% the internal resistance is about as low as it gets. The resistance goes up at both ends of the graph - higher as the battery gets closer to dead, higher as the battery gets closer to full.


So, the charging setup that you linked to (Evil Dave's tutorial of how to rig a "split-charge relay") works fine - no matter if the batteries are the same type or not -as long as the batteries can handle the 14.5v (or whatever voltage) your voltage regulator is set to (and the only ones that can't are usually GEL type), it's all good.

[Well...it's all good except for the fact that a voltage regulated alternator is basically a crappy constant voltage charging system that can take forever (24-36 hours) to fully top off a big battery - unless you have a super-duper modern computer controlled charging system, in which case, it might actually do a pretty decent job in a reasonable amount of time.]



Would replacing the starter battery with an agm solve the issue, or is the problem that my stock alternator wont provide the proper charging profile for an agm?

First, you have to prove that there actually IS an issue. But no, changing battery type isn't going to matter since AGM and flooded both use basically the same charge profiles. Typically AGM likes a higher voltage, which is actually BETTER (healthier) for a flooded battery - but will cause it to use a bit more water and need to be topped off with water more frequently.


The charge controller does have a setting for a sealed battery and the guy at renogy told me it would play nice with this specific battery when i purchased it.

Gotta RTFM to know exactly what the "sealed battery" setting actually does. It might just disable the "equalize" function, or it might reset the charge voltage set points to lower values (which would be sucky).



I'm thinking possibly there is something hinky about that on/off switch you added to the split-charge relay setup. Is it just a kill switch? I.e., you can turn off the relay when the engine is running, OR can it be used to connect the two batteries even when the engine isn't running.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
I just checked my alternator and got a reading of 14.17 volts.

Was that with or without the BigAss(tm) house battery pulling down the bus voltage?



I checked the battery manufacturer's website ( http://www.vmaxtanks.com/SLR155-AGM-Solar-Battery-_p_66.htm ) and it lists "Vehicle Alternator: 14V-15V" as a recommended charging option.

Lead-acid batteries actually aren't picky. They aren't precise electronic components. They are big stupid chemistry experiments in plastic box. Basically, "close enough" is...well...close enough. Feed it enough voltage (14v+) for long enough, and eventually it'll absorb all it can. That'll happen faster if the voltage is higher and AGMs particularly like higher voltages. So do flooded, but they use more water when you pump them up to higher voltages (which is actually HEALTHIER for a flooded battery, but a PITA for the battery owner who has to keep topping up the water).


So my question regarding this is: Will i cause damage to my flooded starter battery or agm house battery by connecting them through a simple solenoid while the truck is running and the alternator is providing power?

NO, you will NOT cause any damage. The starter battery is pretty much fully recharged within a couple of minutes after you start the truck, and after that it's just a dead weight hanging off the side of the "12v bus".

The alternator is making power, but that power is flowing to the house battery and other loads. It's not affecting the cranking battery at all, since that battery is full and not drawing any power from the bus.


If so, will replacing the flooded starter battery with an agm starter battery solve the problem?

A. Totally irrelevant.
B. You haven't yet proved that there actually IS a problem.

See my previous post.



As far as my power loss/short battery life issue:
I talked to a Renogy representative today (great customer service by the way). He told me that the SOC reading on the meter is only accurate when the panels are in full sun, so the 50% I was looking at wasn't accurate, but that doesn't change the fact that my fridge was hitting its low voltage shutoff of 11.8v after only 3 hours.

That doesn't mean that the battery is at 11.8v.

The fridge puts a load on the circuit (the wire). That load induces a voltage drop on that circuit. Depending on how skinny/long the wire is, the fridge could be pulling down the voltage on that one circuit to 11.8v even though the battery itself is at 12.8v. So the fridge sees a low voltage way out at the end of the fridge circuit (wire) and shuts down.



So, i am continuing my tests.
My charge controller gave me a full reading at 10:30am, i checked the voltage with a multi meter and got 14.18 (Renogy rep says that is proper function voltage). I then unplugged the panels and am taking periodic readings for the next couple of hours. I will update here when those readings are done.

If you are taking the voltage up to 14.17 with the alternator, and 14.18 with the charge controller, then you are NO WAY getting that BigAss(tm) battery full. You CAN get it fully charged to 100% by using the solar and charge controller that you have. Just don't put ANY load on it and wait a week or so and it will probably finally reach 100%.





[caps doesn't mean I'm yelling - it's just easier than using bold]
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
To check your alternator voltage, turn everything off. Disconnect the big battery. Start the truck, wait 5 or 10 minutes for the cranking battery to be topped up. Then watch the voltage for a while. Older (non-computerized) voltage regulators usually maintain the voltage with a given range - say 13.5v -14.5v. So the voltage regulator keeps the alternator ON until the bus voltage reaches 14.5v, then turns the alternator OFF. Then the bus voltage starts to fall. When it reaches 13.5v, then the voltage regulator turns the alternator back on again.

Also, many alternators won't put out full voltage at idle. Ramp the RPM up to 1500 or so and keep it there.

Sooner or later, you're going to see what the highest reading actually is.
 
Thanks for the solid responses dwh.

You confirmed what i thought with the dual battery system charging off of the alternator. I have just been getting conflicting information on this and various other forums. my manual toggle switch i added into the system outlined by Evil Dave just gives me the option of disconnecting the system when the truck is running, not connecting it when the truck is off. I just put it in so i could keep the house battery disconnected from the starter battery/alternator until after i start the truck and give it a minute before putting the extra load on the system.

The alternator reading i gave of 14.17 volts was without the house battery hooked up.

The charge controller is hooked to the battery with about 2 feet of 10awg wire. the fridge is wired to the same battery terminals as the charge controller with about 10 feet of 10awg wire.
I tested the amp draw with a multi-meter at a fuse next to the fridge and got a fluctuating draw between 3 and 4.7 amps for the first 5 minutes after start up. This is an appropriate draw for the ratings given on the fridge and I would expect it not to get any higher.

The monitor i am using is an MT-5. it is designed to plug into the charge controller that i am using, which is a Tracer mppt 40A charge controller. I stated in a previous post that i talked to a renogy rep and was corrected in my miss use of the state of charge readings given on the display. The SOC reading are only accurate when plugged into the solar array and the array is in full sun. This is something that was not mentioned in the manual, so maybe it is common knowledge that i just didn't know.

In any case, I think I am beginning to have the same suspicions as you, that the battery is never actually full. I believe the charge controller may be giving me a "full" indicator and switching to "float stage" before the battery is actually as full as it could be. Going to keep reading through manufacturer websites to see if i can get a better understanding of how this might be happening/ how to check for it.
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
Do the Numbers

While voltage drop is not a huge factor at low amperages, it can be important at high amperage when you are trying to bulk charge your battery.

What is the linear distance from your alternator/starter battery positive terminal to your camper battery? If you are using 10 AWG wire, you may find these numbers interesting: http://www.calculator.net/voltage-d...ce=10&distanceunit=feet&amperes=100&x=23&y=15

I would try to achieve no more than 0.5v drop at the full output of the alternator at the full voltage. (dwh will explain why this is not a factor during the absorb stage of charge, but it might explain why your alternator may not be charging as fast as you wish, even with really good voltage.)

N.B. Scholars differ on the need to force separate the two battery banks during engine start. I don't.
 
Here is the data i collected today (battery voltages were taken with multi-meter at battery terminals):

10:20am charge controller gave me a "full battery" indication and switched to float charge. Battery voltage=14.16v
I then unplugged the solar panels and took the following readings

10:50am 12.93v
11:50am 12.86v
12:50pm 12.82v
1:20pm 12.82v

According to my limited knowledge these numbers look healthy for generic deep cycle battery readings, but I think it may be a bit low for my 155ah Vmax solar tank. Perhaps an indication that the battery wan't actually full?
 

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