Couple questions on 10m - license, equipment

[JBThompson]

I'm looking into HAM mainly for emergency comms when the wife and I are out in the boonies and two things have been brought to my attention. First, using VHF/UHF out in the boonies may or may not be the most reliable if I can't find a repeater, or if nobody is monitoring said repeater. Second, HF is much more likely to reach out and touch someone if I can't get a cell signal. So I guess my question is, are the limited 10m band privileges be useful to me with a tech license, or would I benefit greatly from upgrading to a general?

And on that note, I'm debating whether to get a strictly HF radio or fork over for a VHF/UHF/HF. I recognize the multi-band will be more flexible and still allow access to 2m and 440, but something like the Yaseu 870 is pretty spendy. If I get, say a Ranger 2790, I'm limiting myself to HF but it's also half the cost.

We've decidednto purchase an InReach to take with us in the event all other methods fail or if we have to leave the vehicle for any reason, however having a radio besides our CB just seems like good insurance.

 

[prerunner1982]

It's all about whether someone is listening to the frequency that you are on and it never hurts to have more options. I would say get your General license it may turn into more than emergency comms for you and having the ability to use all the frequencies available is a good idea. In a real life or death emergency though you can use whatever frequency you want to get help if no other option is available. I have an HF/6m radio and a separate VHF/UHF radio just because I went in steps rather than all at once. Got the VHF/UHF first so I could get on the air and then when I was able to I got the HF radio. Two different radios doesn't both me, but it may make finding a place to mount the separate radios a chore depending on what type of vehicle you are installing them in.

With the Ranger 2970 not only are you limiting yourself to HF... you are limiting yourself to 10 meters if you only get your tech or 10 and 12 meters with general license.
Looks like the Ranger 2970 is going for about $400-$450. Add a VHF/UHF radio for about $300-$350 and you are looking at about $700-800. The Yaesu FT-857D (HF/VHF/UHF) is going for $740 right now at Ham Radio Outlet (www.hamradio.com) and you would get all of the HF spectrum not just 10 and 12.

Now an antenna for 10m (a 102" whip for example) will be cheaper than most antenna(s) for a full HF radio. I carry 2 antennas, a 20m MFJ hamtenna and a 40m hamtenna. With these two I can get on 6m, 15m, 20m, and 40m. They make 10m hamtenna as well. These are fairly inexpensive at about $16 each.

 

[JBThompson]

Mounting multiple radios could be a challenge, though since police departments used the Explorers there are radio consoles available and I've seen a DIY console a guy did that seemed doable as well. The factory head unit is double DIN and I use a single DIN head unit so there's room there for the CB (Uniden 990). That leaves finding a spot for the HAM equipment and that was one of the things I like about that 857D. Since the front panel is detachable I can mount it down below the AC controls and it's in easy reach.

I guess the other thing I would ask, is how difficult is it to actually reach someone on 2m or 440 when you're in the boonies? Obviously someone has to be monitoring on the other end, but the same goes for a repeater, right? My understanding is that even if a repeater is physically located in close proximity, it's not necessarily going to help me reach someone.

 

[Airmapper]

I guess the other thing I would ask, is how difficult is it to actually reach someone on 2m or 440 when you're in the boonies? Obviously someone has to be monitoring on the other end, but the same goes for a repeater, right? My understanding is that even if a repeater is physically located in close proximity, it's not necessarily going to help me reach someone.

My suggestion is this. Get a tech license and install a VHF or VHF/UHF radio in your vehicle. This is better than nothing. As you learn radio, then decide if you want to add HF capability and if you do that will be a separate radio most likely. Keep in mind while you can get radios that cover all the bands, they will not cover all those bands on a single antenna, and if they do, that antenna is not easily attached to a vehicle.

On 50w VHF it seems if I'm in a good position I can reasonably expect to hit a repeater 30-50miles away, possibly more. (On a good hilltop 100+ miles is possible I presume based on distance of APRS packets I've sent, which require a lot more clarity than voice.) Of course it all depends on terrain and any other variable conditions in play. So based on that, look at repeaters in an area in question and it might give you a feel for how many repeaters you might be able to access.

One thing I've noticed is locally not many people will answer you on the repeaters outside a handful of rag chewers if you just throw out your call. But if you get insistent, like if I've set up a new antenna or radio, make a few calls with just my sign and get no answer, then throw out a "I'm testing my equipment is anyone monitoring..." then I get responses from callsigns I never spoke to before come out of the woodwork. I suspect they are out there listening, but some people you likely won't hear from unless it sounds urgent.

I'm guilty as well, if I'm driving I won't answer a random call unless I'm bored and just want to shoot the breeze, but I have my radio on and scanning local repeaters and simplex call frequencies pretty much anytime I'm in my vehicle. That is something else to remember, if your local guys scan a lot, hold that key down several seconds before you throw out your first call, it gives linked repeaters time to connect, and scanners time to come around and stop on the channel.

But a lot of times VHF/UHF is dead even on repeaters, so I'd try it if I needed it but I'll never be under any assumption it will get me help. It is however much more likely to reach someone on ham than FRS/GMRS/MURS or CB.

I did upgrade to General class for more comms options, but have yet to locate the HF equipment I want. The equipment cost is pretty steep for something I doubt I'll use frequently. What I have been leaning toward is "portable" station options. Folding antennas and some kind of mobile HF rig I can connect to the vehicle battery. My intention was to have it if needed, but it would take a minute to get set up. On the other hand it wouldn't be in the way when not in use. I figure if I'm in an emergency situation where resorting to HF has occurred, all hope of a speedy rescue is already lost, a few minutes to set up a station will not be significant as you'll still spend time finding another station and if HF is your only option, your very remote anyway.

 

[ChadHahn]

Where are the boonies you and your wife go to? Looking at a map of repeaters in Iowa it looks like you are pretty well covered in that state. I don't think 2M would be a problem. The website I found the map at has other states as well. http://www.levinecentral.com/repeaters/google_mapping.php?State=IA&BP2=1&BP70=1

Chad

 

[prerunner1982]

I guess the other thing I would ask, is how difficult is it to actually reach someone on 2m or 440 when you're in the boonies? Obviously someone has to be monitoring on the other end, but the same goes for a repeater, right? My understanding is that even if a repeater is physically located in close proximity, it's not necessarily going to help me reach someone.

I have talked to a ham over 40 miles away on 5 watts with a homemade yagi antenna on a painters pole mast. This is stuff you could carry with you incase of emergency. Or a J-pole and rope to string it up in a tree, a ladder line J-pole folds/rolls up pretty well. Depending on the height of the repeater 50-100 miles is possible. Also if the repeater is part of a linked system if could cover a much greater area. There are a couple linked systems here (Oklahoma) one of which covers most of the Eastern half of the state.

I will agree with Airmapper that there are likely more people listening than you realize. I am guilty of this. Any time I am in the Jeep the VHF/UHF radio is on, typically the local repeater I talk on and 146.52 (national calling frequency). I may not talk and typically don't but listen quite often. I don't "ragchew" or shoot the breeze much, but if a topic of conversation is something I enjoy I will jump in. I know a ham that doesn't like to talk... I don't do it on HF either, but I enjoy seeing what my radio setup can do so I find contests and DX to be enjoyable. Quick exchange of info and move on. From my Jeep I have talked to New Zealand, Russia, Greece, Germany, Slovenia, etc... all from a short antenna mounted to the side of my Jeep.

 

[JBThompson]

Where are the boonies you and your wife go to? Looking at a map of repeaters in Iowa it looks like you are pretty well covered in that state. I don't think 2M would be a problem. The website I found the map at has other states as well. http://www.levinecentral.com/repeaters/google_mapping.php?State=IA&BP2=1&BP70=1

Chad

We've got a couple trips planned up to Minnesota, one down to the Ouachita mountains, and then a two week trip taking a northern route from Iowa out through the badlands, black hills, Yellowstone, and then through Oregon and ending up in NorCal to visit Redwood. We'll do some trails and forest service roads along the way and we plan to avoid main highways as much as possible. Coming back on a southern route through Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Kansas. Same thing, mainly back roads and trails along the way.

We are also doing a trip to Moab that I'm still plotting a route for but for.sure we'll be taking Black Bear Pass from Silvertonnto Telluride and then up to Loma to do the Kokopelli to Moab.

 

[ChadHahn]

Moab has lots or repeaters near by. When you put a repeater on top of a mountain it's easy to hit it. 2M might be all you need.

Chad

 

[4x4junkie]

I'm looking into HAM mainly for emergency comms when the wife and I are out in the boonies and two things have been brought to my attention. First, using VHF/UHF out in the boonies may or may not be the most reliable if I can't find a repeater, or if nobody is monitoring said repeater. Second, HF is much more likely to reach out and touch someone if I can't get a cell signal. So I guess my question is, are the limited 10m band privileges be useful to me with a tech license, or would I benefit greatly from upgrading to a general?

And on that note, I'm debating whether to get a strictly HF radio or fork over for a VHF/UHF/HF. I recognize the multi-band will be more flexible and still allow access to 2m and 440, but something like the Yaseu 870 is pretty spendy. If I get, say a Ranger 2790, I'm limiting myself to HF but it's also half the cost.

We've decidednto purchase an InReach to take with us in the event all other methods fail or if we have to leave the vehicle for any reason, however having a radio besides our CB just seems like good insurance.

Something that should be kept clear here...

10M is the same thing as CB (11M), at least as far as signal propagation (skip) characteristics go. If one band is open to propagation, then most likely the other will be too. Your chance of being able to reach out to someone on either band while propagation is present is quite excellent if your radio gear is decent... However if neither band is open, your signal won't be going very far no matter what gear you have or how much transmitter output you use. In that case your only hope is to find someone who is local to your location (slim chance of that on 11M unless maybe near a highway or population center, next to nil chance on 10M, period), or wait out the night and hope that the bands will have some openings again the following day.
Of course some here will be quick to point out the gov doesn't want you using more than 12W PEP output power (or 4-watt AM carrier) on 11M, but in an emergency that doesn't mean you can't (and most people apparently get away with it forever & ever while just chewing the rag too, even from fixed base stations, so it seems there isn't much enforcement of this, especially if you're not bothering others).


So with the above said, I have to agree that getting an all-bander HF rig is a wise choice if safety truly is paramount. There will almost always be at least one HF band that is open to somewhere whereas 10M/11M by themselves are open maybe 10-50% of a 24-hour period, depending on what part of the 11-year sunspot cycle we're at (and a possibility does exist those bands might not open up at all for a week or more). Keeping a portable (temporary-fixed) antenna in your vehicle that is self-supporting or can be strung up in a tree, at least for the 40M & lower frequency bands, is good advice because vehicle-mounted antennas (those intended to be mounted while you are driving) simply do not work well for those bands (much like little 2' & 3' stubbys don't work well for CB).

I have MURS/FRS/GMRS/70cm/2M/10M/11M + a cell-phone in my rig (some of which I have as handhelds that I could hike up out of a canyon with if needed). I normally find enough activity on some or all of these wherever i go that I haven't felt unsafe being a remote area (each one is capable of scanning the band for activity).
Something of interest, last couple months I've been hearing quite a bit of skip activity on 11M well into the evening (more so than on 10M) due to some rather prevalent sporadic-E conditions that have been occurring in the upper HF spectrum.

 

[Hilldweller]

I've got my General with a 2M hard-mounted in the Jeep, a 2M/70CM HT, and a CB. If I could get in the wayback machine, I'd have an all-band and carry an extra antenna or two.
Right now I think I'm going to mount a 20M and one more antenna and declare victory...

Around here I've gotten somebody on 2M every single time I've tried. From a high spot in the Cohuttas I've hit Nasheville. It blows my mind how well simplex can propagate sometimes.
I can talk to Tennmogger on his farm in TN with a local repeater helping out. And I've talked on Tennmogger's 20M from a valley around here on a net and got through to PA/TN without breaking a sweat. There's a lot of activity on 20M.

 

[jwhutch]

You also need to look at the propagation characteristics of 10m. As said the frequency of 10 meters is very close to 11 meters, but most 11 meters is AM and most 10 meter work is done on side band, (unless things have changed over the years). I used to run 10 meter mobile quite a bit, and very often i could talk to someone across the country or overseas, while a friend on the same 10m frequency, 25 miles away could not hear me, nor i hear him. Yet we could both here the guy across the country at S9. The lower HF bands would be most useful for more "local" communications that would come in handy in an emergency situation. These require a higher class license. I think that the all band/mode radio would be the most versatile, as you could grow into it as you advance in your HAM career. With the repeater networks that are around now, VHF and UHF seems to make the most sense to me. I currently have 2 meter radios in my vehicles, as we don't have a great deal of activity on 440 mhz, anymore. Just my two cents, for what its worth.

 

[4x4junkie]

^^

SSB is very prevalent on 11M, particularly in the 27.315-27.405 MHz segment (ch 31 & above). This was partly why I mentioned having decent radio gear, a rig with both AM & SSB modes will give you far more flexibility than a cheap unit that lacks SSB (some black-market a.k.a. 'export' units are available with FM and additional channels too, though FM wouldn't likely be of much use here).

 

[tgreening]

^^

SSB is very prevalent on 11M, particularly in the 27.315-27.405 MHz segment (ch 31 & above). This was partly why I mentioned having decent radio gear, a rig with both AM & SSB modes will give you far more flexibility than a cheap unit that lacks SSB (some black-market a.k.a. 'export' units are available with FM and additional channels too, though FM wouldn't likely be of much use here).

I had an fm unit and in the years I owned it never heard a single peep.

 

[unusedusername]

Satellite based devices, like a SPOT or sat phone, require horizon-to-horizon visibility of the sky or they won't work reliably as the satellites in the network are moving across the sky. If you are in the flat lands then you can save a large amount of coin by going with one of those. If you are in an area with mountains, or if you are in a valley, then ham radio is the way to go in my opinion.

Upgrading to general greatly expands your options, but the equipment is more expensive.

I run a 2m/70cm local radio, a separate HF radio, and a scanner in my rig. Here is my equipment: http://www.wranglerforum.com/jeep-profiles/37409/

A VHF/UHF radio is as powerful as your database of repeaters. Through the magic of radio propagation, you'll find that the repeaters you can hit are not necessarily the ones closest to where your vehicle is. I am able to hit the Mount Diablo repeater from the Lake Tahoe area in a few places. That would be a 200 mile trip on VHF. This is why having a huge amount of memories programmed into your VHF/UHF radio is important. If you don't know the offset and PL for a repeater, then you can't try to hit it. Even with this large number of repeaters, when I was out in Mojave I found that most of the repeaters that I could hit were not monitored.

If you don't have a good list of repeaters, you can try calling CQ on simplex, but there isn't a very good chance of that working. We did pick up a few other groups of 4x4s on simplex, but they didn't want to talk to us. They would change frequency when I tried to call them. My scanner then took a minute or so to lock into their new frequency

A HF radio with a stationary antenna that you build when you need it both works better then a compact screwdriver, and it's amazingly cheaper. I have good luck with a portable windom off-center fed dipole wire antenna that I put up on some aluminum poles and drive through a tuner. The tuner was $200, the antenna was $100, the poles were about $40. A screwdriver antenna is at least $500 and then you have to add another $250 for the controller, and at least another $200 for the mount and cabling to get it to run. The main cost is your time to bond the body panels on your vehicle so that the screwdriver gets a good enough ground plane to work.

That being said, my Jeep has a screwdriver antenna on it. that covers all bands from 40meters down to 6meters. It can receive on 11meters (CB) but not transmit.

10 meters is usually pretty dead, at least for the next few years until the solar cycle progresses. It is an awesome band when it's open, as I can easily call from San Francisco to New Zealand at the right time of day.

20 meters and 40 meters work really well, with 20 working during the day and 40 working at night. I've been able to hear stations 300 miles away through a 7 foot hamstick on 40 meters when in the middle of the Mojave. I needed a better antenna to contact them though.

I would not attempt to call for help on CB, or the SSB CB channels unless I had no other choice. There are too many wierdos on that band that I'm not sure I would want to trust my fate to one of them in a case where I might die if they didn't take the call for help seriously.

 

[prerunner1982]

20 meters and 40 meters work really well, with 20 working during the day and 40 working at night. I've been able to hear stations 300 miles away through a 7 foot hamstick on 40 meters when in the middle of the Mojave. I needed a better antenna to contact them though.

During the North American QSO party this last weekend I worked stations in CA, WA, and OR on 40 from the 40m hamstick on my Jeep here in Oklahoma. I am sure their stations were doing most of the work, but we made successful contacts none the less. I was even using the tuner because my SWR was high so the antenna wasn't even good for an already compromised antenna. Sometimes it's like magic.