Pre-Emission Full-sized Trucks

[Darwin]

A couple of clarifications, the EGR is not attached to the DPF, it is attached to the motor. It is also the EGR that causes fuel contamination, not the DPF. The newer trucks with SCR that use DEF use significantly less EGR to meet emission standards. The Cummins has a 6 month 15000 oil change interval for reference. With a new truck you get the warranty, so if anything happens you are covered. I don't see it being a big deal if you are sticking with travel in the USA and Canada. Not many places you can actually get that far out there since your are not rock crawling. Better suspension and frame also is found on the newer ones so less money that needs to be invested in those mandatory upgrades that are required on an older truck. The newer ones Ram, fit 37's with no lift. Considering the outrageous prices for low milage 5.9's its a no brainer to me. I carry a slide in camper so I am bias for anything like the newer ones that offer a lot more payload.

 

[Dalko43]

A couple of clarifications, the EGR is not attached to the DPF, it is attached to the motor.

Correction noted; I misspoke. I meant to say that the DPF, DEF and the final catalytic converter are all on the same exhaust pipe (at least they are on the Ram 2500/3500).

It is also the EGR that causes fuel contamination, not the DPF. The newer trucks with SCR that use DEF use significantly less EGR to meet emission standards.

That second part of your quote might be true, but the part in bold is not 100% accurate. I have no idea if the EGR causes fuel contamination, but the DPF definitely does cause fuel contamination, at least on emissions systems that don't have fuel injected directly into the DPF for regenerative cleaning. Here is a good video explaining that:

The Cummins has a 6 month 15000 oil change interval for reference. With a new truck you get the warranty, so if anything happens you are covered. I don't see it being a big deal if you are sticking with travel in the USA and Canada. Not many places you can actually get that far out there since your are not rock crawling. Better suspension and frame also is found on the newer ones so less money that needs to be invested in those mandatory upgrades that are required on an older truck. The newer ones Ram, fit 37's with no lift. Considering the outrageous prices for low milage 5.9's its a no brainer to me. I carry a slide in camper so I am bias for anything like the newer ones that offer a lot more payload.

Yeah, the thing about that is if you read up on feedback from owners and repair technicians, that 15k oil change recommendation isn't given much credibility. I've heard from more than a few that 10k or even 5k oil changes are preferred because of the previously mentioned problem with fuel contaminating the oil. I agree with you that the newer Ram's and other 3/4 tons have made big improvements over the previous generation...the emissions stuff just doesn't seem well thought-out nor reliable over the long term.

Also, I'd beg to differ on how remote parts of Canada and North America can be. Get north of Sudbury, Ontario and you have thousands of miles of backcountry roads and trails to explore. The fuel up there is scare; the repair shops even more so. I haven't had a chance to explore the other Canadian provinces yet, but as I've heard that they are similarly remote in certain areas. This is why reliability is so important to me and why something like the 5.9L, as over-priced as it might be used, is so enticing. The only way I'd take a 6.7L Cummins up there is if it was deleted.

 

[frojoe]

Also, I'd beg to differ on how remote parts of Canada and North America can be. Get north of Sudbury, Ontario and you have thousands of miles of backcountry roads and trails to explore. The fuel up there is scare; the repair shops even more so. I haven't had a chance to explore the other Canadian provinces yet, but as I've heard that they are similarly remote in certain areas. This is why reliability is so important to me and why something like the 5.9L, as over-priced as it might be used, is so enticing. The only way I'd take a 6.7L Cummins up there is if it was deleted.

For the majority of my province (BC) there are areas where it's well over 1000km that you only encounter gas stations and tire fix-it shops.. I shudder to think of the cost and time incurred if a DEF truck got a malfunctioning sensor roadside or offroad and locked the motor out, or forced it into limp mode, and you have at least 500km (by highway no less!) in either direction before you reach something that resembles a shop that could fly the part in, let alone a dealer that would actually be knowledgeable of the problem or part fix.....

 

[Darwin]

Yeah, the thing about that is if you read up on feedback from owners and repair technicians, that 15k oil change recommendation isn't given much credibility. I've heard from more than a few that 10k or even 5k oil changes are preferred because of the previously mentioned problem with fuel contaminating the oil. I agree with you that the newer Ram's and other 3/4 tons have made big improvements over the previous generation...the emissions stuff just doesn't seem well thought-out nor reliable over the long term.

It's 6 months or 15k per the Ram manual. I don't know any technician that would say it's necessary to change it earlier on a Ram that uses SCR. You are going to have to provide some details on that one. I trust the Ram engineers.

Well it seems you have most of it all figured out now. Post some pictures of your adventures and when you actually get a truck.

 

[gtbensley]

It's 6 months or 15k per the Ram manual. I don't know any technician that would say it's necessary to change it earlier on a Ram that uses SCR. You are going to have to provide some details on that one. I trust the Ram engineers.

Well it seems you have most of it all figured out now. Post some pictures of your adventures and when you actually get a truck.

Its for marketing, they do not care down the road if your engine goes bad from poor oil in the long run. They just want it to make it past warranty. Most vehicle manufacturers are putting ridiculously long intervals on the oil changes. Chevy just had a TSB with the 5.3 direct injected motor for oil consumption. It was using up all the oil before the specified oil change interval. The fix? install a larger oil pan to hold more oil. The point is, just because they say you can go that long between changes doesn't mean its a good idea.

 

[js9234]

Oil technology has drastically changed in the last 20 yrs. Engines have tighter tolerances now as well. Check out Blackstone reports on the newer DEF equipped RAM Cummins(haven't seen them on GM or Ford to comment on them). Some people are going over the 15K intervals with the Blackstone results. I just change my Oil, Filter and Fuel Filters at the 15K mile mark with Amsoil and check the oil level occasionally. I have a 2014 with 52K miles on it and no problems. There's a guy on one of the other forums with a 2015 and 187K miles and zero problems including emissions and does 15K Oil, Filter and Fuel Filter changes with cheap Walmart oil. I wouldn't hesitate to take my truck off grid for a while.

 

[Dalko43]

It's 6 months or 15k per the Ram manual. I don't know any technician that would say it's necessary to change it earlier on a Ram that uses SCR. You are going to have to provide some details on that one. I trust the Ram engineers.

Oil technology has drastically changed in the last 20 yrs. Engines have tighter tolerances now as well. Check out Blackstone reports on the newer DEF equipped RAM Cummins(haven't seen them on GM or Ford to comment on them). Some people are going over the 15K intervals with the Blackstone results. I just change my Oil, Filter and Fuel Filters at the 15K mile mark with Amsoil and check the oil level occasionally. I have a 2014 with 52K miles on it and no problems. There's a guy on one of the other forums with a 2015 and 187K miles and zero problems including emissions and does 15K Oil, Filter and Fuel Filter changes with cheap Walmart oil. I wouldn't hesitate to take my truck off grid for a while.

If you two want to trust the owner's manual on this one, go for it. And of course I acknowledge that some of these newer vehicles are making it into high mileage territory with the emissions stuff (though 187k is nothing for a diesel, I'd like to see how many make it to 500k and beyond using that 15k oil change).

The DPF regeneration, as it is set up on the Ram's emissions system, does put fuel into the engine oil, which is not good for the engine's longevity. One of the main remedies I've heard for that problem is to shorten the oil change frequency.

These trucks may run absolutely fine when the emissions systems work correctly. The problem is when they fail, and you're hundreds of miles away from a shop that is qualified to repair it, you're screwed.

 

[p nut]

Seems like their trucks are an after thought...and all the R&D goes to the hybrids and fuel cells. They have great diesels that get decent fuel economy, but they flat out refuse to sell them here. Have about given up on the new Toyotas...the only one that kinda peaks my interest is the SR, but not really. Can't seem to spend money on something I only "kinda" like.

Really need to get over my manual trans fetish, break down and buy a gaaawd damn F150. .

Man, you can't fool me any more. Nope, not after the 12th time. I want to see that old turd make it to 1 mil miles.

...I agree with both of you on the state of Toyota's vehicles in the US. I'll be frank in saying I just don't get what all of the hype is in regards to the "new" Tacoma they came out with. 3.5L atkinson engine (which really doesn't seem like a torquey truck engine IMHO), still using drum brakes, c-channel frame (the Hilux, Landcruiser, and 4runner and pretty much every domestic full-sized all use boxed frames for a reason), and no small diesel engine options.

If Toyota would've just brought over their global Hilux platform (like Ford is planning on doing with the Ranger) and plopped an emissions compliant Duramax or Cummins inline 4 turbo diesel in it, the would've made a killing. Instead, they make a few tweaks to a 10 year old, North American-based pickup platform, call it a "new" generation and all the Toyota fans lose their minds....lol, makes no sense in my book.

And this is coming from a Toyota diehard...if Toyota were to bring over the LandCruiser 70 series (the real Landcruiser) and put something like the new Cummins V8 in it, I'd readily hand over my money.




Yeah, I agree with you on the pricing. I'm hoping to wait that out a bit and see if the next recession brings the used prices down a bit. Otherwise, at the prices sellers are asking for, I'm very tempted just to bypass these pre-emission generations and go get a newer diesel and figure out something with the emissions crap.

Hey, watch the "c" word--C Channel. That's about as bad as the D word--diesel.
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Hilux would be great, but I don't see any benefits over a Tacoma (me, personally). Yes, it's a bit more HD, but I wouldn't buy a Tacoma to do any sort of HD duties. All it does is increase the weight and the ride suffers (Diesel discussion is for another topic). I don't think it would do well here in NA. Same with a LC 70. If they brought them over, they wouldn't be the bare bones base model you see on Discovery channel. It would be maybe a small step down from the GX460. You're talking a $60k vehicle. Then add a Cummins to it? Yeah, got $80k?
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Pricing on a used vehicle is interesting. I think at several points during the recession, the used values actually went up, as there was more demand for them. So a downturn in the economy won't always pay out, unfortunately. But there is always good buys. I'd bet you'd find one if you just keep your eye open.

 

[Dalko43]

Hey, watch the "c" word--C Channel. That's about as bad as the D word--diesel.
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Hilux would be great, but I don't see any benefits over a Tacoma (me, personally). Yes, it's a bit more HD, but I wouldn't buy a Tacoma to do any sort of HD duties. All it does is increase the weight and the ride suffers (Diesel discussion is for another topic). I don't think it would do well here in NA. Same with a LC 70. If they brought them over, they wouldn't be the bare bones base model you see on Discovery channel. It would be maybe a small step down from the GX460. You're talking a $60k vehicle. Then add a Cummins to it? Yeah, got $80k?

Lol...I know that whole C channel discussion is a touchy subject for some. But you have to admit, for as much as Toyota markets itself as the rugged, reliable, go anywhere brand, it sure is weird that their North American pickup's still use that construction while all their other global 4x4 platforms, and just about every domestic truck uses boxed frames.

As for the hilux and LC 70 not selling here, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. There are plenty of people here in North America who know what those vehicles are would willingly buy them. Moreover, with the number of Jeeps and 4runners that sell here, in the day and age of fuel efficient crossovers, I think there is still a sizable market for traditional, BOF, rugged SUV's and pickups. They'd have to figure out a good compromise on the pricing, I do agree with you on that.

 

[p nut]

They do their market research. If they have the opportunity to produce a product that would be *profitable*, they would do it. But vehicles like the 70 serves a very small niche market. It would be awesome if they brought them over, but it's not a great market fit here. Too many people (add: who would be able to afford such a vehicle) want cooled seats and rear entertainment centers, vs lockers/off-road prowess. Why do you think most SUV's have been watered down to basically an oversized crossover? (i.e. Pathfinder, Sequoia, Grand Cherokee, etc.). I think Hilux is a viable argument, but there is a reason why Toyota split from a global Hilux platform in '95 and introduced the Tacoma. We (meaning 99% of buyers) don't use them for HD duties. They're just a play vehicle and commuter. "Rugged" enough for what most of the crowd will use it for.
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I did see a Troopie driving down the highway the other day. Looked super cool. RHD, manual, ...and going about 50mph in the slow lane. I've got no shame in admitting while these vehicles do look awesome, I like the plush ride, power, and safety of my modern truck. So, yeah, I'm part of the problem.

 

[Clutch]

Man, you can't fool me any more. Nope, not after the 12th time. I want to see that old turd make it to 1 mil miles.

Ha ha!, just rolled 334K!

Clutch finally gave up the ghost, it is in the shop currently. Have been driving my Trooper....yan know, that thing rides pretty nice, it is like driving a Lazy-Boy down the freeway.

It always comes down to that...$30K++ that would cost me for a new truck, keeps both of the vehicles I already have running and fueled for a looooong time.

Hilux would be great, but I don't see any benefits over a Tacoma (me, personally). Yes, it's a bit more HD, but I wouldn't buy a Tacoma to do any sort of HD duties. All it does is increase the weight and the ride suffers (Diesel discussion is for another topic). I don't think it would do well here in NA. Same with a LC 70. If they brought them over, they wouldn't be the bare bones base model you see on Discovery channel. It would be maybe a small step down from the GX460. You're talking a $60k vehicle. Then add a Cummins to it? Yeah, got $80k

I don't think the HiLux or LC70 would do well here either...only a couple few enthusiast want them. That and like you said...majority of trucks have gone the lux route...most of civilian owned trucks don't really get used as trucks. The pickup has become the family truckster. NTTIAWWT.

 

[Clutch]

but there is a reason why Toyota split from a global Hilux platform in '95 and introduced the Tacoma.
_

I was looking at the early 2000's HiLuxes...looks eerily similar to a 1st gen Tacoma. Cab is a slightly different doors look the same, bed and front clip are different. Not this picture, but found some that had wing window vents...would love some wing window vents on my truck.






EDIT: found this, apparently you can swap a Tacoma front clip on those HiLuxes.

 

[Jr_Explorer]

I have the 2007 Silverado "Classic" (pre-smog) with the LBZ. I love it. I've added H2 wheels and larger BFG A/T tires, leveled it and a larger fuel tank (Aerotank 52 gal). It's got a Flipac and in this virtually stock from it has done the Mojave Road with ease (granted, not a real challenging trip). With the larger tires and drag from the Flipac and real heavy right foot I get 13 mpg day in and day out. I have a relatively low mileage unit at 200k but that is going to be true of ANY <2007 diesel.

 

[Betarocker]

I think you need to go all the way back to 'The Flintstones' era to find a vehicle that doesn't produce emissions. Foot power.

 

[Capital E]

What about the pre-2003 Ford 7.3? Are they just too old at this point?