Diesel question....

[TwinStick]

What happens to people who own the VW diesels & now the accused RAM diesels that fail the clean air smog tests ? Are they stuck with a vehicle that they can not register or get inspected & therefore can not drive ? After all, it is NOT the consumers fault that the manufacturer did that. They were buying what they thought was an emissions legal vehicle.

I know here in NY, I can't even cut back my exhaust tip (for off roading). It has to be EXACTLY as it came from the factory, or they will fail it.

I'm sure I am not the only one wondering this.



I ask this because back in 2008, there was a guy with a brand new Chevy DuraMax. He bought new in California, moved to Colorado, to a green county, & his truck failed the test. They would not give him an inspection sticker. He took it back to a dealer & dealer said there was nothing wrong with it. Took it back to get tested again. It failed. He was making $600 a month payments on a truck that he could not drive. I never found out what his ultimate outcome was but that sucks for sure.

 

[One shot]

VW is buying all the diesels back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[kmlacroix]

There is no indication, as of yet, that FCA is cheating on the smog test, just stretching the rules when running at high speed. We shall see what shakes out.

 

[justbecause]

My uncle just sold his jetta back to VW. He was told the settlement was KBB value + $5,000

 

[jeep-N-montero]

Yup....they are buying them back and has been all over the news.

 

[Dalko43]

VW is compensating its customers.
There are accusations that Ram cheated emissions, but so far no proof. That and Cummins (the supposed culprit engine) has generally been very frank and straightforward about their emissions control, so I'd be very surprised if these accusations actually turned into anything.
I've never heard of a case like what you described with your friend with the Duramax. Generally-speaking, the only state that has specific emissions requirements is CA, but most car-makers design and market their cars as CA-compliant. You might want to reconfirm the details of your friend's story....if the truck was modified in anyway regarding engine or exhaust, then yeah it's totally feasible it would not pass emissions inspections in certain states and counties.

 

[jeep-N-montero]

VW is compensating its customers.
There are accusations that Ram cheated emissions, but so far no proof. That and Cummins (the supposed culprit engine) has generally been very frank and straightforward about their emissions control, so I'd be very surprised if these accusations actually turned into anything.
I've never heard of a case like what you described with your friend with the Duramax. Generally-speaking, the only state that has specific emissions requirements is CA, but most car-makers design and market their cars as CA-compliant. You might want to reconfirm the details of your friend's story....if the truck was modified in anyway regarding engine or exhaust, then yeah it's totally feasible it would not pass emissions inspections in certain states and counties.

Agreed, I also know that on any vehicle the exhaust has to exit behind the passenger compartment from the side or rear of the vehicle, and that "stacks" and exhaust turndowns are not legal in most states as well. Seems that diesel owners are the biggest violators of this.

 

[redthies]

VW is compensating its customers.
There are accusations that Ram cheated emissions, but so far no proof. That and Cummins (the supposed culprit engine) has generally been very frank and straightforward about their emissions control, so I'd be very surprised if these accusations actually turned into anything.
I've never heard of a case like what you described with your friend with the Duramax. Generally-speaking, the only state that has specific emissions requirements is CA, but most car-makers design and market their cars as CA-compliant. You might want to reconfirm the details of your friend's story....if the truck was modified in anyway regarding engine or exhaust, then yeah it's totally feasible it would not pass emissions inspections in certain states and counties.

I've read it's the 3.0 VM Motari engine in the Jeep and 1500s. There is only around 100,000 total vehicles effected (according to what I saw yesterday). Where did you find your info?

The big loser in all this is, ironically, the environment! The output of resources to build replacement vehicles for those effected will far outweigh the supposed extra pollutants coming from the VWs. If you are getting double the fuel economy while producing 50% more emissions per gallon burned, you're still winning!

 

[frojoe]

I've read it's the 3.0 VM Motari engine in the Jeep and 1500s. There is only around 100,000 total vehicles effected (according to what I saw yesterday). Where did you find your info?

The big loser in all this is, ironically, the environment! The output of resources to build replacement vehicles for those effected will far outweigh the supposed extra pollutants coming from the VWs. If you are getting double the fuel economy while producing 50% more emissions per gallon burned, you're still winning!

This is a major concept that so many people simply don't get. The diesel and resources used to transport the material to the factories, the natural gas and other fossil fuels used to heat the tooling at the foundry as well as at the plastic manufacturing plants. The electricity to use the heavy stamping dies to form sheetmetal and pressure pumps to inject plastic. The environmental waste associated with the coating and painting processes of almost all parts of a car for some sort of long-term protection. The manufacturing of the batteries and copper wiring+insulation. To have all the energy gone into making a vehicle go to waste.. especially if the vehicle is still <10 years old and in all respectable considerations in fine working and looking condition.. it's just downright insulting to us as a "modern" 21st century society. To have all that energy just get crushed because in all reality it isn't worth it for VW or other manufactures to add the cost of the fix on top of the cost they've had to shell out to buy the vehicles back. True that the vehicles could get parted or recycled.. but realistically I just don't see that happening on the grand scale that it should be as it probably can't be justified in the black-and-white world of big corporate financial cost/benefit.

Redthies it doesn't even have to be at the cost to the environment from the extra pollution.. owners could simply choose to get their beloved great-mileage VW fixed at the cost of a bit of mileage (so I guess you're right... higher emissions per distance if 1 gallon of diesel no longer goes as far). But I feel once these loyal owners found out the truth about the cars they were otherwise totally happy with, their feelings of being hurt/betrayed/insulted/angry/revolted will now be punishing the environment in an effort to say "screw you" to VW.

[/rant]

 

[Dalko43]

This is a major concept that so many people simply don't get. The diesel and resources used to transport the material to the factories, the natural gas and other fossil fuels used to heat the tooling at the foundry as well as at the plastic manufacturing plants. The electricity to use the heavy stamping dies to form sheetmetal and pressure pumps to inject plastic. The environmental waste associated with the coating and painting processes of almost all parts of a car for some sort of long-term protection. The manufacturing of the batteries and copper wiring+insulation. To have all the energy gone into making a vehicle go to waste.. especially if the vehicle is still <10 years old and in all respectable considerations in fine working and looking condition.. it's just downright insulting to us as a "modern" 21st centurty culture. To have all that energy just get crushed because in all reality it isn't worth it for VW or other manufactures to add the cost of the fix on top of the cost they've had to shell out to buy the vehicles back. True that the vehicles could get parted or recycled.. but realistically I just don't see that happening on the grand scale that it should be as it probably can't be justified in the black-and-white world of big corporate financial cost/benefit.

Redthies it doesn't even have to be at the cost to the environment from the extra pollution.. owners could simply choose to get their beloved great-mileage VW fixed at the cost of a bit of mileage (so I guess you're right... higher emissions per distance if 1 gallon of diesel no longer goes as far). But I feel once these loyal owners found out the truth about the cars they were otherwise totally happy with, their feelings of being hurt/betrayed/insulted/angry/revolted will now be punishing the environment in an effort to say "screw you" to VW.

[/rant]

Seriously, they should fine VW, give an exemption for the vehicles that already exist, and enforce the emissions standards for any future vehicles. The cars already exist and they work, even if the do run a little bit dirty. They're still far cleaner than diesels from 20-30 years ago.

 

[Buliwyf]

There's no E check in my county. So If I had one, I could keep on running it, I think. I don't think the DMV even has the capability to enforce this?

But hopefully it drives down the stock price at VW. It appears that their stock price is actually climbing still.

 

[TwinStick]

Another thing is, many people buy their vehicle, get it paid off, then want to keep it as long as possible. It would be horrible to HAVE to get rid of it, and only get reimbursed for a small portion of it's actual day to day value for the owner. $5000 wont even buy a good used car these days. Once again, the consumer looses. If they offered me $5000 for my car (150,000+ miles) or truck, I'd say forget it, it's worth way more than that to me.

 

[Clutch]

Another thing is, many people buy their vehicle, get it paid off, then want to keep it as long as possible. It would be horrible to HAVE to get rid of it, and only get reimbursed for a small portion of it's actual day to day value for the owner. $5000 wont even buy a good used car these days. Once again, the consumer looses. If they offered me $5000 for my car (150,000+ miles) or truck, I'd say forget it, it's worth way more than that to me.

I would imagine more diesels are going to come under fire. Safest bet I would assume is not to buy a diesel right now and see how things play out.

In the end it is just a hunk of metal and plastic, not the end of the world.

 

[malibubts]

What happens to people who own the VW diesels & now the accused RAM diesels that fail the clean air smog tests ? Are they stuck with a vehicle that they can not register or get inspected & therefore can not drive ? After all, it is NOT the consumers fault that the manufacturer did that. They were buying what they thought was an emissions legal vehicle.

I know here in NY, I can't even cut back my exhaust tip (for off roading). It has to be EXACTLY as it came from the factory, or they will fail it.

I'm sure I am not the only one wondering this.



I ask this because back in 2008, there was a guy with a brand new Chevy DuraMax. He bought new in California, moved to Colorado, to a green county, & his truck failed the test. They would not give him an inspection sticker. He took it back to a dealer & dealer said there was nothing wrong with it. Took it back to get tested again. It failed. He was making $600 a month payments on a truck that he could not drive. I never found out what his ultimate outcome was but that sucks for sure.

So this is a pretty complicated set of questions, I'll do my best to try and get everything answered. Forewarning, there is a good deal of oversimplification and generalization in order to not have to type out a novel here.

First off is owners of the VW diesels are being offered either a buy-back or to receive compensation and have the 'fix' performed to their vehicle. As far as buy-back goes there is a complicated set of formulas that take into account miles, year, usage, etc and add it to the top of the pre-scandal KBB prices. The fix compensation is calculated in a similar manner. I know one hang up here is that very few models actually have an acceptable fix in place.

http://jalopnik.com/heres-exactly-how-much-volkswagen-will-pay-you-for-your-1782745097

On to FCA with the EcoDiesel. At this point it is a waiting game, owners will have to wait and see what comes of the allegations. On the surface it does not appear that this will be as big of an issue as VW as it seems the EPA is concerned about several 'Auxiliary Emissions Control Devices' that under certain cirumstances when protecting the engine cause higher emitted NOx levels. Which is technically allowed in circumstances to protect the engine, however these must be disclosed to the EPA and FCA did not do this. Could there be more as things progress, sure. But right now it doesn't look as bad for FCA.

PDF Warning: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2017-01/documents/fca-caa-nov-2017-01-12.pdf

Now to testing, I don't know of a single state that is even capable of testing the high emissions that are being created. The issue here with both VW, FCA, and any diesel really is NOx. Put simply diesel engines are most efficient at higher temperatures, higher temperatures create more NOx. To combat NOx things like EGR, SCR, DEF are used to neutralize it. You can also tune the engine to run at lower peak temperatures; this is what VW did with their alternate tune. The testing done at stations usually consists of a code check, visual inspection, and a particulate matter test. Even the VW and FCA vehicles that have been accused of cheating will pass these emissions tests as long as they have not been tampered with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIt3MaHADvM

To the point of the Durmax not passing inspection; my guess would be that he removed emissions components. 'Deleting' a diesel truck is fairly common and will cause your truck to fail the visual inspection. I obviously do not have all the information here, but the tests done are mostly to insure no one deletes their truck and that they are not 'Rolling Coal'. But as mentioned in the above video a tuner can still be used and disabled for the testing.

Which brings us finally to your question about registering. Now technically even the cheating vehicles will pass the state tests, which by the way most new vehicles are exempt from in most states for some time period. Ohio is the first 4 years for example. What could possibly happen however in certain states is that there is a special directive specifically naming the cheating vehicles and saying they are not allowed to be registered without documentation the fix is in place. Even in this case one could have the fix done and then tune the engine with a third party tool.

 

[frojoe]

Thanks malibubts for that excellent summary! :beer: