Another groover option...

[Cat Jockey]

Hello all. In my perusing of this site, I have seen lot's of references to the PETT toilet system. As a commercial whitewater raft guide, I have another suggestion to throw out there for toilet solutions: The Eco-Safe toilet. It is based out of a 20mm rocket box (removable polythylene liner in box) and includes a full size seat. They also have attachments for using a RV dump to empty. Very clean and leak proof and designed to handle abuse.

I have spent days (on multi-day river expeditions) with more than one full groover box strapped in right next to me with no concerns.

I am intimately familiar with the use of these toilets, so if feel free to ask any questions.

The PETT definitely works, but if I was going to be lugging around the contents of a groover with me for days/weeks before disposal, the Eco-Safe is the only toilet I would consider.

One final note, there are many things designed for river expeditions that crossover very well to overland (Partner Steel stove is an example - a stove designed for expedition river use that works well for overland use too). In your searching for gear/ideas, make sure to check out some of the larger river based equipment suppliers as well.

 

[theMec]

Cat Jockey forgot to post a link but I think I found it:
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=2729

A river rat friend has something similar but it utilizes an ammo box under a simpler toilet seat. Same idea but full size ammo box opening which I'd guess makes for easier disposal. This describes it pretty well.

Thanks for bringing this up Cat Jockey. As the outdoors get more crowded, we'll have to deal w/ poop differently. Some BLM areas require portable toilets already.

 

[Cat Jockey]

Hmm ... no insert in the rocket box? Not criticizing your friend at all, as just putting a seat on an ammo can would definitely suffice (us river rats have been known to use nothing more than a 5 gallon bucket and a lid and you hope it stays secure on the river ).

Again, not to be overly critical, as it obviously works just fine for your friend, which is the important part, but I'll point out a couple problems I see that could arise after my years of having the ... umm ... distinct pleasure of having to transport many people's stuff down the river and then to dispose of it properly after the trip, so I have dealt with this quite a bit.

The first thing that came to my mind was the thought of it being a bit messier in general, more specifically, waste matter potentially ending up on the lid of the can so when you flip the lid over or take it off, it has stuff all over it. In addition to the general unpleasantness of that, there is a chance of some of the stuff getting on the rubber seal and making it less effective. Aroma and substance leaks can occur. You would only have one seal to rely on as well as opposed to two with an insert.

The second thing I would worry about is corrosion over time.

The third problem is access to disposal sites. A system like your friends is much easier to contend with near a river as the major multi-day rivers have a town within 75 or so miles of the take out that have a Scat machine which will take care of many types of portable toilets used on the river. However, I know of RV dumps I use where your friend's system could not be emptied without the hoses and such of RV's and the Eco-Safe. Us river rat's tend to know where we are going to deal with the groover before the trip even starts, whereas with overland, I would think one would want more flexibility and use more RV facilities. There are no unplanned forks in the river, where you can glance at a map and say, 'let's turn left and see where that road goes', or something like that. In addition, about the longest standard trip you can make on a river in the lower 48 is 3-4 weeks, versus driving around North America and South America for 2-3 months maybe not always certain where point B will exactly be until you get there. You have more flexibility in route planning in a vehicle. One a river, there is one way and one speed, and one ending point.

One last thing that came to mind is that although the groover is for #2 only, it can be used for #1 as well, if you are prepared for the much more flavorful aroma. I would be afraid to do that without all of it contained in a polythylene liner.

 

[kerry]

The Eco Safe people also make a smaller one called a Boom Box designed to fit in canoes. It says it takes 20 uses. If you burn your toilet paper and pee on the ground I think it will take quite a bit more than that. I also have the Coyote toilet from Jack's Plastic welding. Lid is not quite as secure but for a large group on a canoe trip it works well.

The whole 'regulated toilet system' kind of pisses me off since I was very happy with plastic bags in 5 gallon buckets. When the BLM in Utah instituted the toilet rules, I called them to ask them why. They told me EPA regulations prohibited human waste in landfills. I called the EPA, and they laughed. No such regulation. Diapers go in there everyday and effluent from waste treatment plants also goes in there. I'm puzzled as to why the regulations came into effect. I know the Flagstaff landfill people were not happy with the daily dose of **** filled plastic bags from people getting off the Grand Canyon but beyond that, it doesn't make sense.

 

[Cat Jockey]

hey, theMec, I noticed you are in Boulder. Down River Equipment Co. around I-70 and Ward or 44th have it.

 

[kerry]

AAA Inflatables on Larimer St carries them too.

 

[Cat Jockey]

The whole 'regulated toilet system' kind of pisses me off since I was very happy with plastic bags in 5 gallon buckets. When the BLM in Utah instituted the toilet rules, I called them to ask them why.

For people, such as yourself, who were responsible about it, plastic bags and 5 gallon buckets work fine. But not everyone is responsible about such things. To complicate, the environment of eastern Utah is dry, dry, dry. Pretty sensitive and long recovering place. Don't get me wrong, I am not any type of extreme enviro (I have a penchant for using internal combustion engines in pristine environments), but when you start doing the math, ALOT of people use very limited camping spots, cooking area, etc. High use in concentrated areas.

As an example, the busiest river commercially rafted in North America, as of a few years ago, was a section of the Arkansas in Colorado. A quarter million people commercially rafted Brown's Canyon in the industry peak. In a three month period. Throw 4-5 years together, that is millions of human beings using all of 20 places to stop, to eat lunch, to do #1 & #2 and camp.

Just one little scrap of food left on the ground by 1 out of every 200 users leads to mice and ant problems in a matter of weeks.

A few knuckleheads ruin it for the whole lot and make for stiffer regulations in cases like this.

 

[theMec]

catjockey: Based on your critique, the link I found didn't describe my friends system very well. The lid is somehow connected to the can and very stable and very sanitary. There's probably a place to store your system's seat after you clean the stuff off, but I don't see it. I'm not the guy to compare systems but I do know that my buddy knows what he's doing. He has guided the Grand and done numerous kayaking trips in AK and north of the Brooks. ;-)

I didn't mention his system was cheap. No way I'd spend $200 on a groover for personal use.

 

[Cat Jockey]

I understand your buddies system pretty well. It essentially the same thing with the exception of using trash bags in place of the Eco-Safe liner. Again, works just fine for river trips, but a little smellier in set-up, take down and use, with the biggest limiting factor the inability to use many RV dumps. A garbage bag is prone to leaks and does not seal aroma like the Eco-Safe liner. I am pretty sure your local RV facility doesn't want you huckin' a garbage bag full of crap in their dumpster either. I know I wouldn't, so you would have on the road disposal problems, leaving a trail of garbage bags of fecal matter in gas station dumpsters.

There's probably a place to store your system's seat after you clean the stuff off, but I don't see it.

I know they make a protective bag for the seat, but I think the best way is to use another 20mm box. The seat is designed to fit inside of one and is then protected, plus you have room in the box for your chemicals, toilet paper, hand wipes, etc. All your groover needs. I set the accessory box that holds the seat next the groover and the lid on top, but not latched (to protect from rain if there is not a tent set up).

No way I'd spend $200 on a groover for personal use.

Lot's 'o people do. Go down the Grand with folks I know and you'll see a dozen of those boxes for 16 folks for 3+ weeks. Your buddy's system isn't as pleasant to use, set up, or maintain and has a better chance of leaking. And your only really good option for disposal is throwing a garbage bag full of crap in a dumpster. Fine if its your dumpster at your house when you get home from the river. Not so fine, IMO, if you are criss-crossing the nation randomly targeting and bombing gas station dumpsters with bags 'o poo.

Opening a tied bag of poo and then pulling it over the outside of the box for further use in the desert can make you want to hurl. Unscrew a few inch diameter lid does not.

Squeezing the air out of a bag of crap in the desert every day can make you want to hurl. Screwing a few inch diameter lid back on doesn't.

Plenty of people would pay $200 for sparing that part of it alone. Look, if I was going on a 2-3 day vehicle based camping trip, I would take some wag bags and a small ammo can. But you have to keep prices in perspective. A brand new raft alone can run $4000 - $6000+. That is just the raft. Nothing else. A complete outfit can run over $10,000 if you go top of the line and need everything. There are alot of accessories one will need that will cost more.

How many $200 accessories do people put on their trucks/SUV's, etc, for no reason other than looks. Perspective. You see $200 as expensive for a place to go #2 when a garbage bag will work. I see $200 as a pretty cheap way to completely solve the problem of trying to outfit your vehicle that is not already an RV with the amenities of one, including the ability to use their dumping facilities while you are on the road like a real RV, or the option of dumping it at home. In addition to better security of the, umm, cargo, more sanitary use, etc. Because of the rocket box, you can strap these outside of the vehicle, on top, etc.

I'm not the guy to compare systems

I don't think it makes my parents very proud for their youngest son who is closer to 40 than 30 to say that he is that guy, but, what can I say? I am that guy. I have the benefit of not only knowing what works well for me, but also for 23 y.o. females who have never been out of city before and are now faced with the prospect of figuring out how a bear goes #2 in the woods. I have some pretty good sampling data.