After reading about the synthtic winch lines in several places I have a couple of questions. What is the difference between the Amsteel Blue and the Masterpull lines? The Masterpull website shows several different types of lines, any advantage to one over the other? I am considering putting the synthetic line on a new Warn M8000 to save weight and for the added safety concerns. Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks.
Synthetic winch lines
- Thread starter CodyB
- Start date
I am sure you will receive many suggestions and thoughts. I don't have a good answer for you on the true difference, but I have seen the threads on various forums discussing just that. Either way you go it will be much better than wire. For me, the decision final came down to Viking Winch Line. I am very happy with the quality of their product. Of course Master Pull has been around for a long time as well.
I can't speak for the real difference between the two brands, but let me make one recommendation for your synthetic line. When you order your line get the protective sleeve (I've found most brands sell the sleeve in a 10' length) made into two 5' pieces or better yet get two 10' sleeves for those times that you find your line rubbing on more than one rock, tree, you name it.
Paul
Paul
24HOURSOFNEVADA
Expedition Leader
Back around 2002, my local off road shop ordered me Amsteel blue by "Accident" instead of Master Pull (M/P) like I had requested. I took the line and left.
While installing it on the drum, it came out of the swedge (The part that squeezes the line end and attaches to the winch drum). It wasn't even fully installed on the drum yet.
The Amsteel rock guard is/was a very thin piece of nylon/plastic weave. I don't think it would hold up too many times against hard surfaces. It featured a hook thimble that was bendable by hand as well.
Needless to say, I replaced it with Master Pull. The difference was immediate. The M/P line is more substantial in construction, features a heavy duty stainless steel swedge that you can not bend with your hand, a rock guard that is heavy duty and replaceable. I've had a couple of different winches since then and they have all had M/P lines on them. I've also never had a M/P line break.
There is no comparison between the two. My .02 cents.
While installing it on the drum, it came out of the swedge (The part that squeezes the line end and attaches to the winch drum). It wasn't even fully installed on the drum yet.
The Amsteel rock guard is/was a very thin piece of nylon/plastic weave. I don't think it would hold up too many times against hard surfaces. It featured a hook thimble that was bendable by hand as well.
Needless to say, I replaced it with Master Pull. The difference was immediate. The M/P line is more substantial in construction, features a heavy duty stainless steel swedge that you can not bend with your hand, a rock guard that is heavy duty and replaceable. I've had a couple of different winches since then and they have all had M/P lines on them. I've also never had a M/P line break.
There is no comparison between the two. My .02 cents.
dust devil
Observer
The difference between Amsteel Blue and Master Pull's basic line is -- marketing.
Both lines are made from Dyneema, which is a registered brand name for a version of high modulus poly line manufactured principally as marine line. Finding tech specs on Dyneema isn't all that easy because much of the information out there is available from end market sources, not the manufacturer, and differing sources rate identical line differently as to break strength, for example. For 3/8th's line, I have found rated strength ranging from 19,600 pounds down to 17,640 pounds for the same produce (Amsteel) depending on whether you look at Amsteel's sources or Master Pull's. Interestingly, Master Pull rates Amsteel line lower in break strength than anyone else. Go figure.
Bottom line is that both products are 12 strand Dyneema. There may be differences in UV coatings and the color of coating used, but the underlying line is the same stuff, all outsourced from the same supplier, the owner of Dyneema. I didn't dig enough to know if the owner is Samson Line, but the information is out there. Whether the coating is blue, orange, green, or whatever will make no difference in strength, but may make a difference in how long and how well it stands up to sunlight (I doubt it but it might). Most UV and abrasion coatings last less than one season in desert sun. All winch line marketeers buy their lines already coated and colored by the manufacturer, as these coatings are part of the manufacturing process, not something added down stream.
Abrasion sleeves are up to you. I find them to be a pain in the butt and of little use in the real world, but since I don't allow synthetic line to cross rocks or other obstacles during a pull, I don't have a use for the sleeve. Otherwise, they just tend to jam up in the fairlead, but everyone has their own opinion about them.
The most important point, in my opinion, is that neither Amsteel nor Master Pull makes rope, and as far as I know, neither makes rope into winch lines. Each outsources the product in a finished form. So, the underlying rope is going to be the same from either marketeer. If anyone can find a difference in the finishing of the product (as implied above in the post regarding the quality of the swaged end) then there will be your difference. I prefer to buy rope in bulk and make my own winch lines. Its cheaper, I get to do the braiding on the eye so I know how it is done, and I can make the rope any length I want.
Both lines are made from Dyneema, which is a registered brand name for a version of high modulus poly line manufactured principally as marine line. Finding tech specs on Dyneema isn't all that easy because much of the information out there is available from end market sources, not the manufacturer, and differing sources rate identical line differently as to break strength, for example. For 3/8th's line, I have found rated strength ranging from 19,600 pounds down to 17,640 pounds for the same produce (Amsteel) depending on whether you look at Amsteel's sources or Master Pull's. Interestingly, Master Pull rates Amsteel line lower in break strength than anyone else. Go figure.
Bottom line is that both products are 12 strand Dyneema. There may be differences in UV coatings and the color of coating used, but the underlying line is the same stuff, all outsourced from the same supplier, the owner of Dyneema. I didn't dig enough to know if the owner is Samson Line, but the information is out there. Whether the coating is blue, orange, green, or whatever will make no difference in strength, but may make a difference in how long and how well it stands up to sunlight (I doubt it but it might). Most UV and abrasion coatings last less than one season in desert sun. All winch line marketeers buy their lines already coated and colored by the manufacturer, as these coatings are part of the manufacturing process, not something added down stream.
Abrasion sleeves are up to you. I find them to be a pain in the butt and of little use in the real world, but since I don't allow synthetic line to cross rocks or other obstacles during a pull, I don't have a use for the sleeve. Otherwise, they just tend to jam up in the fairlead, but everyone has their own opinion about them.
The most important point, in my opinion, is that neither Amsteel nor Master Pull makes rope, and as far as I know, neither makes rope into winch lines. Each outsources the product in a finished form. So, the underlying rope is going to be the same from either marketeer. If anyone can find a difference in the finishing of the product (as implied above in the post regarding the quality of the swaged end) then there will be your difference. I prefer to buy rope in bulk and make my own winch lines. Its cheaper, I get to do the braiding on the eye so I know how it is done, and I can make the rope any length I want.
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Stumpalump
Expedition Leader
Master Pull makes a line that is covered with a tuff cover like a sail boat line. They also make a regular line like everybody else for less money. If you have the cash for Master Pulls premium line then that looks like nice stuff. It basically has the protective sleeve along it's whole length. http://www.masterpull.com/cpage.cfm?cpid=478
dust devil
Observer
I have seen the Master Pull premium line in the field, and I find it visually attractive with the full length cover. It does have a sort of cool factor. Whether their claim that the sleeve keeps dirt out is true, I don't know. I suspect it is just as effective at keeping dirt in and out.
However, attractive as it is, I would choose this kind of line first as a marine line for hoisting sails and such because it will run through cleats and pulleys without issues. Basically, that's what it is made to do. I would still not allow such a line to run over rocks in use, even with the sleeve, although the full length braided sleeve is probably quite effective at protecting the line underneath.
What I don't like about it is the fact that, because of the sleeve, you have to use a thimble and a choke knot to attach a hook to the line. The thimble is heavy, as they must be, and personally, I don't trust the choke knot for use in a winch line. If someone finds test-to-destruction statistics for this winch line, I would find them interesting, just to know how the thimble and knot affect the break strength of the line. The knot reminds me of a fisherman's knot, and such knots put a concentrated strain on the line where the knot chokes the line. Braiding an eye into the line with standard 12-strand allows the strain of the braid to be spread over up to 2 feet of line, and destruction testing has shown that braided ends retain roughly 98 percent of the lines rated break strength.
However, attractive as it is, I would choose this kind of line first as a marine line for hoisting sails and such because it will run through cleats and pulleys without issues. Basically, that's what it is made to do. I would still not allow such a line to run over rocks in use, even with the sleeve, although the full length braided sleeve is probably quite effective at protecting the line underneath.
What I don't like about it is the fact that, because of the sleeve, you have to use a thimble and a choke knot to attach a hook to the line. The thimble is heavy, as they must be, and personally, I don't trust the choke knot for use in a winch line. If someone finds test-to-destruction statistics for this winch line, I would find them interesting, just to know how the thimble and knot affect the break strength of the line. The knot reminds me of a fisherman's knot, and such knots put a concentrated strain on the line where the knot chokes the line. Braiding an eye into the line with standard 12-strand allows the strain of the braid to be spread over up to 2 feet of line, and destruction testing has shown that braided ends retain roughly 98 percent of the lines rated break strength.
HenryJ
Expedition Leader
With the over braid cover it seems splicing and field repairs would not be easy, if even possible?
xcmountain80
Expedition Leader
I've got te MP premium and nt sure how dirt would ever get in there as it is tight almost if not like part of the rope. It's not like a chaff guard or anything it's just part of the rope. As for feild repair a knot would be almost the only way.
Aaron
Aaron
Bad Hair Day
Observer
My vote is VIKING!!! :wings: I stayed at Thor's house before going to KOH and saw the Viking opperation in person and they DO splice ALL of the lines in house and can do custom orders too. What I like about the Viking line over the Master-pull is its easy to fix/splice if you ever have a failure and I'm not a fan of the knot used on the MP lines. Just my .02 cents. CHEERS!
dust devil
Observer
Dust and mud will infiltrate any stranded line, with or without the extra cover. Because the braided sleeve is as tight as it is, getting dirt back out would be problematic.
I haven't yet seen a knotted repair in synthetic line hold for more than a few seconds. Granted most folks don't know how to tie knots, but still they tend to fail almost immediately no matter who ties them. I suppose one might remove the sleeve for several feet on the ends of a damaged line and then splice it back together, but as with any line spliced after failure, I would toss it once I got home.
xcmountain80
Expedition Leader
Have you actually ever had your hands on this stuff? I ask because well you just have to handle it to understand, and as far as dirt dust penetration, this is the same stuff (as far as I know) the boys over seas use. Syn rope has a shelf life anyway as eventually it will be done but I don't feel this will cause problems down the road with dirt and dust it's just something else to pick at.
Aaron
dust devil
Observer
Send me one and I will be glad to set up some test criteria to establish the lines' ability to reject dirt.
Otherwise, it seems none of us has any more objective information than the next regarding intrusion of debris in field use in a sleeve covered line. My point is that the line is fabricated from woven fibers, including the abrasion sleeve. If water can penetrate, so will dirt. That's my experience with synthetic line and all other objects regularly found on the trail. The harder it is for dirt to get into a fabric or other item, the harder it is to get back out.
Assuming that the line is not waterproof, I must also assume it is not dirt proof, and have only suggested as a talking point that the sleeve, while it adds a degree of abrasion resistance, might have a hidden down side in trapping dirt in the rope. I would be tickled to test the notion, but not to the point of buying a line I don't otherwise need just to prove the point. Perhaps someone who owns one of the covered lines who has used it in a dust and mud environment and who has subsequently retired it from use could cut it open and take a look.
Not to hijack this thread, but I'm curious why you would toss a good line after having been spliced (assuming it was done correctly).
Here's my thinking on this. I buy a synthetic rope and it comes with a hook. The hook has been spliced, most likely an eye splice, into the rope direct from the manufacturer. So why would a splice, at some other arbitrary point in the rope (again assuming a proper splice), be any less as strong as the splice used for the hook?
Paul
xcmountain80
Expedition Leader
Well I've had two so I'm going to guess I get the points. They actually float quite well so some hydrophobic qualities are present. It is a very tight weave and while not impervious to dirt I'm sure it's a non issue. For goodness sake stop being so cheap and buy one already (they used to be cheaper as the second one was almost $100 more than the last one).
Aaron