NUMMI to close... Tacoma production moving elsewhere...

[Martinjmpr]

My understanding is that the cost of bringing a small diesel up to US emissions specs is so high that it would price the vehicle out of the market.

People say "I want a diesel Tacoma" but the question is, would you pay $35k for one? Maybe you would, but I doubt that very many other people would, and Toyota would lose money very quickly.

Isn't that why ChryCo dropped the CRD from the Jeep Liberty?

Businesses are risk-averse for a lot of good reasons. New innovations can sound like a great idea but when they get out into the market, most of them fail miserably.

BTW seeing as how the Tacoma is built on the same platform as the Lexus GX470 and the 4th gen 4runner, there's no reason a 4.7l V8 can't be put in there. In fact, it would be much easier for Toyota to put a V8 in the Taco than it would for them to put a diesel in there. My guess is the only reason they don't is they are afraid it might steal sales away from the Tundra.

[haven]

"the cost of bringing a small diesel up to US emissions specs is so high..."

I don't agree that a small pickup with diesel engine has to cost a lot more than a similar gas engine model, even considering the emissions equipment.

VW charges only $2300 extra for the diesel version of the Jetta, compared to a comparably equipped Jetta SE with gas engine. Some of that $2300 is recovered in a tax credit for fuel efficient vehicles, and the rest through higher resale value than a Jetta with gas engine.

Mahindra and Mahindra reportedly are planning to sell a 2WD diesel pickup with USA emissions controls for $22,000 in early 2010, including an automatic transmission.

In Australia, a couple of minutes of searching online indicated that the HiLux with 4L V6 gas engine costs about $2000 less than a similarly equipped HiLux with 3L I4 diesel.

Why Ford, Dodge and GM charge $8000 for a diesel V8 is another question. These companies charged a hefty premium for diesel trucks in the years before emissions controls became so complicated.

Chip Haven

[Martinjmpr]

"the cost of bringing a small diesel up to US emissions specs is so high..."

I don't agree that a small pickup with diesel engine has to cost a lot more than a similar gas engine model, even considering the emissions equipment.

Doesn't matter whether you agree, or I agree, or anyone else in the peanut gallery agrees. What matters is whether Toyota agrees. And they obviously don't because they don't sell a diesel pickup in the US.

I'm going to assume that Toyota is run by rational businessmen, who want to make money. If there was a way for them to make money selling a diesel pickup in the US, they'd be doing it. That they're not doing it is proof that they don't think they can make money doing it (and whether they can, in some "objective" sense, make money doing it is irrelevant, because the only relevant factor is what Toyota thinks they can make money doing.)

Mahindra does not make a small diesel truck that is sold in the US. Mahindra plans to sell a small diesel truck in the US, but they don't do it yet.

Other companies have planned the same thing (I'm thinking of ARO, about 10 years ago) but they could never pull it off.

If Mahindra can make and sell a small diesel in the US, and make a profit, then I'd expect other manufacturers like Toyota to follow suit.

But just like Jayne Cobb said in an episode of "Firefly",

"I smell a lof of 'if' coming off this plan!"

[Scott Brady]

The UAW is a parasitic organization.

It had its time, but laws are now in place to protect employees. The UAW created an unsustainable roadblock to the laws of supply and demand, and as a result, they killed their host.

In the end, the parasite always dies. . .

[TACODOC]

The UAW is a parasitic organization.

It had its time, but laws are now in place to protect employees. The UAW created an unsustainable roadblock to the laws of supply and demand, and as a result, they killed their host.

In the end, the parasite always dies. . .

Amen.

[tacollie]

Good on ya Scott.

As far as tacoma diesel. I don't see it happening anytime soon. The Tundra will get one sooner than the Tacoma and when it does, if it does it will be made for the Tundra and not a motor already used overseas. To be up to US emissions they have to add a lot of hp sucking products. If I were to guess the helix diesel wouldn't be as powerful up to US emission specs. That suggest the gas motor would out sell the diesel and therefore makes it a bad buisiness decision. Just my thoughts though.

Also, isn't US diesel refined different and harder on non-US speced diesels?

I hope for a V8 for the tacos only because my brothers tundra got better milage than my taco. He got a nice 17 full of tools and pulling a trailer, I got a smooth 13.5 empty.

[dbolton]

Doesn't matter whether you agree, or I agree, or anyone else in the peanut gallery agrees. What matters is whether Toyota agrees. And they obviously don't because they don't sell a diesel pickup in the US.

I'm going to assume that Toyota is run by rational businessmen, who want to make money. If there was a way for them to make money selling a diesel pickup in the US, they'd be doing it. That they're not doing it is proof that they don't think they can make money doing it (and whether they can, in some "objective" sense, make money doing it is irrelevant, because the only relevant factor is what Toyota thinks they can make money doing.)

I agree with this, and I think it has a lot to do with the embedded cost of a different fuel platform in the United States, in addition to the cost of the engine (as associated emissions gear) itself. Last I heard, there was a major push by Toyota a few years ago to incorporate a diesel power plant into the redesigned Tundra - the stumbling block was getting their dealer service network with the tools, equipment, and knowhow to service the plants (anyone who's worked on diesel engines knows it's a different animal - yes you can figure it out but if you're doing it for a living how much do you have to invest to get up to speed?).

As I understand it, the cost of the infrastructure to Toyota and/or their dealers was too great.

[87FoRunner]

I agree with this, and I think it has a lot to do with the embedded cost of a different fuel platform in the United States, in addition to the cost of the engine (as associated emissions gear) itself. Last I heard, there was a major push by Toyota a few years ago to incorporate a diesel power plant into the redesigned Tundra - the stumbling block was getting their dealer service network with the tools, equipment, and knowhow to service the plants (anyone who's worked on diesel engines knows it's a different animal - yes you can figure it out but if you're doing it for a living how much do you have to invest to get up to speed?).

As I understand it, the cost of the infrastructure to Toyota and/or their dealers was too great.

Hit the nail on the head. A friend of mine was a dealer during new Tundra primetime (when it first came out and there was lots of ads on TV and in magazines) Toyota was talking of giving techs a credit line to help buy tools exclusive to diesel use. Rumor was also a computer glitch of a 5.4L diesel motor popping up as a motor option alongside the 4.0, 4.7, and 5.7 gassers.

Granted, this is second hand information, and economic/money has turned a 180 since he worked there.

Does anyone remember when the 08+ 6.4L Powerstroke first came out and many Ford dealers had to have new lifts and equipment to deal with the Cab having to be removed in order to get to most of the motor (namely turbos). Same idea, but on a larger scale considering Toyota hasn't had a diesel in America (USA) since the early 80s.

[cruiseroutfit]

As much as I would love to see a Toyota factory diesel available off the lot, I've got to agree with Martinjmpr, is just not in the cards for Toyota yet. They havn't risen to be the top automaker based on poor decisions, and the decision to keep the Tacoma in its current platform (best selling I might add) is very calculated.

[Overland Hadley]

I agree with this, and I think it has a lot to do with the embedded cost of a different fuel platform in the United States, in addition to the cost of the engine (as associated emissions gear) itself. Last I heard, there was a major push by Toyota a few years ago to incorporate a diesel power plant into the redesigned Tundra - the stumbling block was getting their dealer service network with the tools, equipment, and knowhow to service the plants (anyone who's worked on diesel engines knows it's a different animal - yes you can figure it out but if you're doing it for a living how much do you have to invest to get up to speed?).

As I understand it, the cost of the infrastructure to Toyota and/or their dealers was too great.

Very good point. I had not thought of that, but it makes total sense.