Sleeping bags

JackW

Explorer
I'm still using my down Snow Lion bag I bought in 1978 - keeps me toasty down to the low thirties. For colder weather I stick it inside one of the fleece zip up bags you can buy at Walmart for $10 - that will take it comfortably down into the high teens - any colder than that I don't want to be sleeping outside...
 

Moody

Needs to get out more
The "warm when wet" idea is more than a bit misleading.

Agreed.

Many people wanted to argue their purchase with me at Kirkham's when they decided against the down (I really encouraged down) I believe to justify the cheaper purchase. Lots used the same argument-it will keep you warm when it is wet. I had to ask...how many times have you gotten your sleeping bag soaked?

I see only two major advantages to synthetic bags- first, if they do become wet (completely soaked) they dry faster. When I have washed my down bags, I plan on at least 3 hours at the laundromat for dry time (don't ever wash your down bag in your top load washer...another thread there).

Second, as Jonathan mentioned, in significant humidity areas. I have found my down bags don't seem to loft as well and therefore insulate as well in humid climates.
 

Wander

Expedition Leader
I knew I'd get some very good info here. Too bad the real EB Karakoram isn't availible anymore that sounds like a heck of a bag. I also see a lot of recomendations for Western Mountaineering bags so I'll check those out.

Thanks for catching the joke Superu!

Afte reading these threads I'm itching to do some camping.
 

discotdi

Adventurer
I just got a Butler Bag all season and my first night out at around 28 degrees I was toasty. I love it because I am 6'4" and it is really long and wide. plenty of room to burrow down deep. Also I think the canvas outer material will help it last for many years.
 

7wt

Expedition Leader
I have a Marmot Never Winter that I wouldn't trade for. I love the bag. It is my first down bag and I won't go back to synthetic.
 

SunTzuNephew

Explorer
And 'warmer' is often the difference between life and death. A down bag wet is not only useless, it will self-destruct by ripping out the internal baffles if not meticulously handled. After that, even if you dry it, it's ruined since the down will not stay in position.

Further, a down bag that becomes damp, even from a weeks use at altitude, is not light anymore, and not as warm. The moisture from perspiration and respiration will build up in the down, freeze, and compact it, making it less warm than a synthetic. If you're stuck inside a tent on the side of Denali for a week and your tentmate accidentally spills some water, thats bad news too. A synthetic bag will dry itself out from the inside out from body heat.

Down is nice - warm, light and compact. A synthetic bag isn't quite as warm, light or compact, but is more durable. And it has the advantage of being usable wet, or damp. For certain purposes when you need absolute maximum warmth with absolute minimum bulk and weight, it's still the way to go (I'd get a gore-tex bivi to go around it, myself, for protection). For long-term use not requiring minimum weight or bulk? Synthetic is the way to go.
 
Last edited:

Jonathan Hanson

Supporting Sponsor
A synthetic bag isn't quite as warm, light or compact, but is more durable.

Um, huh? There is simply no way to claim a synthetic sleeping bag is more durable than a down bag. Even synthetic bag makers won't claim that.

I guess you mean more rugged, referring to your comment about internal baffles - and you're correct: You shouldn't pick up a down bag you've just washed and let it hang from one end. But is that a big deal? Good down bags have baffles that hold up to even that sort of treatment. Otherwise, down bags need absolutely no special handling.

As someone mentioned, how many times (honestly, now) have you heard of a sleeping bag becoming soaked in the field? I'm aware of exactly one instance - a sea kayaker who capsized and lost a cargo hatch, and who was stupidly carrying his bag in a regular stuff sack. His fault.

All the dire talk about spills or drips in the tent ignores the simple fact that virtually all really good down bags employ waterproof/breathable shells, making them immune to such things (no Gore-Tex bivy needed). Put your down bag with its waterproof shell in a waterproof stuff sack, and it's not going to get soaked or even damp in transit, period. You should store a synthetic bag exactly the same way, because, trust me, while you might survive if you dunk your synthetic bag in a river and wring it out, to prove a point or something, you won't be happy.

Yes - if you don't need to compress your bag, and aren't concerned about weight - or if you habitually camp in areas of very high humidity - a synthetic bag is a good choice. If you want maximum warmth, minimum weight and bulk, and the best long-term investment, nothing touches down.
 
Last edited:

Christophe Noel

Expedition Leader
I'm a hard goods buyer for a large outdoor store and have been off and on for a few years. There's tons of misconceptions about both down and synthetic.

The pros of down: It's more compressible, lighter, will last longer, and regulates body moisture better than synthetic. That last point gets overlooked too much. Everyone has been in a bag when they started to get too warm. A down bag will allow body moisture (sweat) to pass through it better than synthetic which keeps a down bag from being as "clammy" as a synthetic bag. That simply translates to comfort, but can contribute to warmth as too much body moisture can conduct cold.

The cons of down: It's very expensive to buy good quality down. It does not insulate if it gets wet. This isn't to say wet synthetic will do much better, but the theory is a wet synthetic bag will retain some thermal value although that night is going to really suck. Down does require a bit more love and care if you want your down bag to last. I own 4 different 800 fill power Dry-Loft covered bags that are going on 10 years and I seriously doubt you could tell they were a year old. To get a down bag to last (or any bag) you should aspire to wash it as little as possible. To do that, always sleep in CLEAN long underwear to keep body oil and grime off the bag cover. Synthetic fibers these days are great, but even a super high tech synthetic will begin to lose loft and warmth after 3-5 years with frequent use. Down can not only last twice that long, many nicer bags can be refilled. My Feathered Friends bag from 1994 has been refilled twice.

Any sleeping bag is going to represent the more delicate piece of equipment in your kit. If you treat it as such, you won't get it wet, dirty, torn, etc. I have sea kayaked over a thousand miles with a down bag and not once got it wet. Same for sleeping in countless snow caves while mountaineering. Protect it and you'll be fine.

Regarding down bags, fill power and bag shells. As of this year, I'd say less than 20% of all bags come with a true "laminate" water proof, breathable shell. 100% of them will come with "down proof" shells treated with a DWR water resistant coating, but that won't make them even moderately waterproof. For starters, the stitching isn't taped, so that is a water entry point. Plus, like all DWR coatings that wear off quickly, the nylon will soon pass water with ease. Gore-Tex bags from the early 90's were sweat boxes. The Dry-Loft and eVent bags of the last decade are much better, but an 800 fill Dry-Loft or eVent bag can set you back $400-$600. As an example, a 20 degree Mountain Hardwear 0 degree bag with a true waterproof, breathable shell runs $520 because it uses their in-house laminate shell made of Conduit fabric (like Gore-Tex). The same bag with their non-waterproof shell is almost half that price.

Fill power is the other thing that gets overlooked. In short, the greater the number the better quality the down. 600-650 is the norm compared to 400-500 that you get in most home pillows and comforters. Top tier down gets up to 800-850 down. There's also different types of down from different birdies. Hand harvested Eider duck down is pretty sweet.

Down rules.
 

Christophe Noel

Expedition Leader
Back to the OP -

Marmot has made some of the most amazing bags I've ever used. My '98 CWM -40 Dry-Loft bag was $800 but saw tons of super serious high mountain action and was like having a life boat in a bag when I wanted to escape mamma nature's wrath. That said, their new price point bags are just that. I order tons of Trestle bags for the store. Tough to beat the price. However, they are in no way shape or form even close cousins to their top end down.

If you like lots of room, get a Big Agnes. If you want a very nice, unique, higher quality sythetic, look at Mountain Hardwear's Lamina series.

One last footnote: Most of the bags from the better brands like Marmot, TNF, Sierra Designs, etc are tested at the same lab in Manhattan, Kansas. That testing protocol uses a 1" layer of insulation to represent the pad and assumes the sleeper is wearing a thin base layer and a hat. So, if you buy a 20 degree bag, find yourself in 20 degree temps, you'll only gain that level of comfort if you have the pad, base layer and hat thing working for you. It's also starting to sound like not everyone is springing for the real testing these days and more or less guessing what the ratings are for their bags. Take a look at a Slumberjack, Eureka or Coleman bag and tell my those look warm. They don't. I pulled a 20 degree Slumberjack bag out of the box and it looked like a giant sock.

European testing is quite a bit different, so shopping for bags by Vaude, La Fuma and others will usually offer 3 ratings based on comfortable, hot and dang-it's-cold. They don't have the same uniform testing.
 
Last edited:
Nice post Flounder. Thank you.

We just returned our 2 15 degree synthetic bags not because we did not like them, but because of their inherent bulk. When space is at a premium IMHO down is the only alternative and like many things in Backpacking and vehicle based trips, space is an issue. We decided to take the pain of a goose down purchase. The price for a good down bag is steep because they are quality products made from expensive materials and in many cases (such as the Feathered Friends) by small factories still within the United States, I think that makes it worth it.

I think most of the posts above have valid points, but it also comes down to personal preference/opinion.
 
Last edited:

Jonathan Hanson

Supporting Sponsor
Christophe - I agree; I don't consider a DWR coating to be proof against much for long. I do think if you're going to make the down investment you should go all the way and look for 700 fill power and over, a true laminate shell, and features such as a full-length two-way zipper for temperature modulation. And that's going to be a painful purchase, no matter how long you can expect the product to last.

So I don't by any means discriminate against synthetic bags; I just try to caution prospective buyers about spurious "advantages" to them.

I believe the temperature rating system also assumes you're in a tent, i.e. subject to no air movement. That makes a big difference in the bag's efficiency.

I've always coveted an eider down bag, as it's the only down collected from live birds (their nests, actually). But you can take the price of a best-quality, 800-fill goose-down bag and double it to get eider.
 

spressomon

Expedition Leader
I'll add two more considerations, in down's favor, to this almost beaten dead horse:

#1: Weight. No not packing/carrying weight but the weight atop you when you're sleeping. I really prefer the almost weightlessness of down atop my sleeping body. Whereas the synthetic bags I've used, admittedly many many years ago, do not drape nearly as ethereally as a fine down bag. Subjective: Sure!

#2: Temperature range. Down has an almost magical quality of allowing a person to remain very very comfortable in a wider range of temperatures than any synthetic bag I've used. I am constantly, after 30-years of using both types of bags (and jackets & vests too!), amazed at the relative extreme range of temperatures down allows me to be comfortable within.

That's it. I'll shut up now :coffeedrink:
 

Corey

OverCamping Specialist
Back when I used sleeping bags I was a fan of down.
I have owned many a sleeping bag over the years, but I preferred down over synthetic.

My last bag I bought was an REI Big Cat rated at 20 degrees.
Very good quality and warm.
I am not a huge fan of the tight mummy bags, as I can roll around like a hotdog on a rotisserie trying to get comfortable.
I like the wider bags or a modified mummy that is wider.

bigcat1.jpg


I no longer use it though, I use flannel sheets and a winter weight down comforter that keeps me plenty warm.

PS, never ever store you bag compressed in its stuff sack when you return home.
I have used the big white REI sacks for eons to store the bags in as they fit loosely in it.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
185,894
Messages
2,879,310
Members
225,450
Latest member
Rinzlerz
Top