short bed p.u. retro triangulation?

J

jefe4x4

Observer
jefe here. Life long 4 wheeler, rock crawler, explorer, back packer.
I have a dream.
My dream is to build my ''01.5 Dodge/ '98 Lance Lite from a pretty convincing poseur into an outback winner.
I've already started the project with;
rear super single 33x15.50's on 12" wide wheels.
Power Loc rr diff. It's a very tight preloaded posi with cone shaped clutches that just don't want to let go. Acts more like a Detroit, but is tough enough to hold up under the 7000 lbs. on the rear axle.
Upgrade shocks all around
15,000 lb. Warn winch
one ton rear suspension with Stable Loads
20 lb. CO2 tank, and 12V high volume air compressor for tires
DSCN1333.jpg

Maybe I'll expo the build right here.
Coming soon are a 3" front and 2" rear suspension lift (Dodges don't need much lift from stock but the weight of the winch and bumper bring the front a bit low) and
new front Dana 60 outer free wheeling interior hub axles with an OX locker or ARB. I have front and rear ARB's on my rock crawler, and they are not trouble free. That's why maybe a manual style OX might be a better choice.
A auxilliary fuel tank.
DSCN1535.jpg

So, the QUESTION is: Have any of you fabbed up a 3 point trangulation for a stock short bed pick up? The center pivoting saddle goes fore leaving the aft body/bed mounts stock to roll with the end of the frame.
I hope to not have to re-invent the wheel here if your technology is available.
regards, as always, jefe
 
F

fisher205

Explorer
Jefe,
No help either, but have been giving it a lot of thought for a flatbed. Especially since I've twisted two toppers and my Alaskan apart.

It will be interesting to see what you come up with.

Brad
 
1leg

1leg

Explorer
Please x-plain the rear "super singles" tires? I did a google search and only found info on super swamper in that size. is this what your running.
 
J

jefe4x4

Observer
oneleg,
Here's a piece I wrote explaining the 'super single' concept. It's not new.
*(about 2008) Hello, intrepid travelers.
Some time ago I posted a piece on moving to Super Singles on the rear axle of my TC.
My shameless moniker was, "Redneck Duallies". I mention in the piece that there was only one (1) tire that fit all my requirements. 32.8" tall, very wide, aggressive tread, high capacity....
At the time the Nitto Mud Grappler, size 33x14.50R16, 3415 capacity, 14.57" wide tread was alone.
What has it been? Two years? (now 3 years)
There is a new player in mix.
It's the
Mickey Thompson
Baja ATZ Radial SLT

Part #5167
Size /Size Equivalent: LT375/55R16 33X15.50R16
Sidewall BLK
Serv Desc 126N
Appx.Wt. 84 lbs
Load Range E
Max Load 3,750 lbs
Max PSI 65
Appr. Rims 10.0-13.0"
Meas. Rim 12"
Section Width 15.5"
Tread Width 12.0"
Overall Dia. 32.8"
Tread Depth 20.5 32nds
By the looks of the tread, it's an All Terrain (AT), which should be a lot quieter than the Nitto's. (anything should be quieter) I'm going to try to see one in the flesh and report back.
There are other options with various 17", 18" wheel sizes which include diameters of 33.9", 35.7", 37.8", 39.8" (for you muy macho big tire guys). The problem is finding a wheel to fit the tires. Go ahead, just try to find an 18" wheel with a 12 or 14" width.
What does this mean to you? If you are looking to increase the footprint and loading of your rear axle, by a lot, nearly as much as two regular dualie tires, and you are running 285x75R16's or the 17-18" equivalent, now, you can simply get two of these tires and two Mickey Thompson 12"wide by 16" aluminum rims and you're in business. It doesn't matter if your fronts are 17" or 18" wheels, only the diameters (and by inference, loaded radius) need to be the same. It doesn't matter if your are currently running singles or duals.

The big change here is not just the potential for noise reduction (kind of like a Dolby tire), since they are so similar to the one's I'm running now, but the chance to have a good boost in load capacity; 3750 lbs. That's a 7500 lb. rear axle rating.
Now the M.T. wheels only have a 3600 lb rating, but it's close: 7200 lb. on per axle. Stockton wheel will make me a very high capacity wheel, and they're close.
This could be the fix/tweeking I was looking for to make the super single project complete and uncompromised.
Get on the Mickey Thompson website to see the tread pattern. Hey, I'm sponsored by ProComp, so this is not a shameless plug. Just info for you to
"explore the possibilities" on the road to XTC.
*edit: The MT's are no longer made. What a shame. I got the last two available on the planet and they reside on my rear axle. They are much quieter than the Nitto's.
regards, as always, jefe
 
J

jefe4x4

Observer
DT75KLH,
It's a Warn winch carrier made for up to 12K lb. winches. I fudged a bit using it with the 15K lb. winch, but have made some gussets and used better fasteners than supplied.
I did have to dig on Warn's website and finally called Warn in OR and talked to a tech. He said installing a 15K on a 12K saddle would be o.k. Just try to make straight line pulls (yeah, right).
The reason I went this route instead of going with an aftermarket winch bumper comes down to weight. All of the aftermarket bumpers add net several hundred pounds off the front end of the rig. The Warn carrier was the lightest net gain overall because you retain that tinky little stock bumper. It just doesn't 'look' as cool as one of aftermarket bumpers.
I bought the 15K (over the 16.5K) winch because I found a (barely) used one for half the price of new.
I've used some kind of winch (I've had 6 of them on various 4WD's) over 600 times. This 15K is so strong that when I use it for felling trees or moving rocks, or vehicle recovery, I MUST dead man the truck, usually with a tow strap or chain and a couple D rings. Wheel chocks need not apply. Otherwise is just slowly drags the truck toward the object. I've used the snatch block nary a time with this baby.
The one thing that would move me in the direction of an aftermarket winch bumper would be the approach angle. It is just awful with the Warn. The winch would reside farther aft with W.B. thus increasing the approach angle by a horizontal 8-10", not a trifling amount. I can say I have dug the front end into the dirt a number of times. Not good.
regards, as always, jefe
 
J

jefe4x4

Observer
1Leg,
Here's a comparo between the front
33", 285x75R-16 and the rear 33", LT375/55R16
DSCN1370.jpg

regards, as always, jefe
 
J

jefe4x4

Observer
ntsqd,
I read through most of the links you provided and obtained mucho info for my project. Seems NO ONE has actually tried a triangulation of a standard short pickup bed. Only flat beds and direct to intermediary framing triangulation.
I crawled under there and took a good look.
Firstly, the bed is fastened to the mounts(metal to metal) in only four places, 2-fore, and 2 aft, widespread, no rubber or fibre pads between. Next, my most troublesome (hear that as movable) frame-to-bed mount is actually broken. The thin metal around the 3/8th" (about 10mm) bolt now looks like a lock washer with no connection to the frame at all. Just a crack all the way around.
This would account for the high stress on the passenger front tiedown eyebolt on the Lance wooden framing now pulling down (and probably distressed mightily inside the wall of the camper). I'm going to remove the siding, luckily starting at the bottom, and find a way to use some deep channel iron as a connector/anchor over the bottom of the Lance frame, on all four corners.
The bed has some Butyl looking flat pads just stuck on where the bed bottom cross members touch the frame. Just for support of the bed with a heavy load. Lord knows I've had heavy loads in there. Recently we got a load of road crushed rock and the net weight was 4900 lbs. -- pushing down on those thin Butyl pancakes and the three tiny connecting bolts (remember the 4th was non-op) with not a lot of surface purchase.
Franky, I'm not shocked that the bed is connected in such a lightweight fashion. The bean counters did save about 3 cents per truck doing that.
After reading almost all of the 'triangulated frame' references, I have to make a decision whether to go a triangle with the center saddle at the front, or at the rear. A diamond is out because of the tie downs I'll be using. That system would really pull the camper box apart pronto. It looks like I'll go a pivot point saddle to the rear, mostly becasue of the way the tiedowns work. One thing I learned today is to be more flexible (pun?) in how tight or loose I run the tiedowns. Much looser, off-road on the center saddle end of the box.

While I was under there, a dragged one of the thick secondary springs I replaced with two thinner ones
DSCN1336.jpg

DSCN1337-1.jpg

to measure and see if I could add this to the main spring pack. If I cut about 2" off of one end, (yes, I'll chamfer) they will fit nicely on the bottom of the main pack just above the thick 'overload' flat spring. I've worked on hundreds of spring packs for 4WD's over the years, and while there is some talent involved, it's not rocket science. I'll report back about the consequences. What will that make the result?... a Dodge Ram 4000?
Judging by the responses here, it looks as if I'm on my own, so I'll report back when I have news.
Thanks for the links.
regards, as always, jefe
 
J

jefe4x4

Observer
Here's a shot of the 15.50's (375-55-R-16) under the rear I took today.
DSCN1570.jpg

The 12" wide wheels have a 4.5" off set vs. the stock off set of 6.25". so, the wheel stick farther out, but not as far as a set of duals. The fender flares are cobbled up 7" aftermarket Jeep TJ flares, which just cover the tires. Dualie mud guards keep the wetness from invading the bottom of the Lance Camper.
Today I removed the bug deflector and eyebrows from the hood and fenders. They collect too much snow in the winter and have been slowly degrading the last 3 years, so off with their heads.
I'm going at the rear suspension by degrees, firstly adding the thick secondary leaf to the bottom of the pack, and if that's not enough, I'll add 1-1/2" to 2" blocks to the lift. I'm ordering the 3" front spacers.
regards, as always, jefe
 
DT75FLH

DT75FLH

Adventurer
jefe4x4 said:
ntsqd,
I read through most of the links you provided and obtained mucho info for my project. Seems NO ONE has actually tried a triangulation of a standard short pickup bed. Only flat beds and direct to intermediary framing triangulation.
I crawled under there and took a good look.
Firstly, the bed is fastened to the mounts(metal to metal) in only four places, 2-fore, and 2 aft, widespread, no rubber or fibre pads between. Next, my most troublesome (hear that as movable) frame-to-bed mount is actually broken. The thin metal around the 3/8th" (about 10mm) bolt now looks like a lock washer with no connection to the frame at all. Just a crack all the way around.
This would account for the high stress on the passenger front tiedown eyebolt on the Lance wooden framing now pulling down (and probably distressed mightily inside the wall of the camper). I'm going to remove the siding, luckily starting at the bottom, and find a way to use some deep channel iron as a connector/anchor over the bottom of the Lance frame, on all four corners.
The bed has some Butyl looking flat pads just stuck on where the bed bottom cross members touch the frame. Just for support of the bed with a heavy load. Lord knows I've had heavy loads in there. Recently we got a load of road crushed rock and the net weight was 4900 lbs. -- pushing down on those thin Butyl pancakes and the three tiny connecting bolts (remember the 4th was non-op) with not a lot of surface purchase.
Franky, I'm not shocked that the bed is connected in such a lightweight fashion. The bean counters did save about 3 cents per truck doing that.
After reading almost all of the 'triangulated frame' references, I have to make a decision whether to go a triangle with the center saddle at the front, or at the rear. A diamond is out because of the tie downs I'll be using. That system would really pull the camper box apart pronto. It looks like I'll go a pivot point saddle to the rear, mostly becasue of the way the tiedowns work. One thing I learned today is to be more flexible (pun?) in how tight or loose I run the tiedowns. Much looser, off-road on the center saddle end of the box.

While I was under there, a dragged one of the thick secondary springs I replaced with two thinner ones
DSCN1336.jpg

DSCN1337-1.jpg

to measure and see if I could add this to the main spring pack. If I cut about 2" off of one end, (yes, I'll chamfer) they will fit nicely on the bottom of the main pack just above the thick 'overload' flat spring. I've worked on hundreds of spring packs for 4WD's over the years, and while there is some talent involved, it's not rocket science. I'll report back about the consequences. What will that make the result?... a Dodge Ram 4000?
Judging by the responses here, it looks as if I'm on my own, so I'll report back when I have news.
Thanks for the links.
regards, as always, jefe
Click to expand...



kinda looks like your main leaf was cracked there.

for some ideas you can look at the way unimogs have there boxes set up you can also look at pirate 4x4 for fab ideas.
 
ntsqd

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
I didn't expect that you'd find much on the mounting of beds, just the design ideas with their pro's and con's. I suspected that you wouldn't have much trouble taking those ideas and applying them to your situation.

FWIW I like Bajaroad's idea of the two pivots being over the axle. That relieves the frame from a lot of torsional stress when compared to placing them at the front. Not being all that familiar with the way that campers are anchored to pick-up beds it sounds like maybe this is the better idea for you too?
 
J

jefe4x4

Observer
ONELEG,
On further examination of the tire sites out there, it seems that all of the wide Mickey Thompson's are not gone. Here's one still available, if you can use a 35.4" tall tire:
#5268
LT375/65R16
36X15.50R16
BLK 126N 89
load range; D
weight rated:3,750 lbs. @50
rim: 10.0-13.0 11
section width: 15.0
tread: 12.2
35.4" dia.
23
These are a more aggressive tread than my AT's.
regards, as always, jefe
 
J

jefe4x4

Observer
ntsqd,
Thanks for your advice. I've transferred the thread back over to Open Roads/RV.net/truck campers and found a friend on there that has developed a 3 point aluminum flat bed (or tray) for his short bed Dodge. It will sit one inch lower than the stock bed surface, and be able to move the camper box 2" forward, with all kinds of storage boxes on there. Looks like he and I will go into it together, thus not having to re-invent the wheel. Mine will also have stake pockets, a must for my dual usage.
Thanks again, all, for your kind indulgence.
regards, as always, jefe
 
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