Current diesel SUV's in the US - making the best of what's here?

Nomad_K

Adventurer
Hi all,

I am looking at a newer (V6 versus the old V10) VW Touareg, W164 (2007 or 2008 for me) ML320 CDI (pre-Bluetec), or a used Grand Cherokee with the Mercedes diesel.

Has anyone driven all three off road - if so, what did you think? As for parts, I know that there are plenty of things available for the Jeep so far as suspension goes, a few euro items for the VW, and as far as I can tell, nothing for the W164 Mercedes ML other than the factory air suspension (which might be okay now that they are on their third compressor and relay design). I will not be doing any rock crawling. I will be spending a bit of time off-road (light), helping a friend to tow odds and ends to his farm (light) and trying to do a few long trips (road and light off-road) as time permits.

Cheers,

Kyle
 

Allroader

Observer
Hello Kyle,

Well I am not located in the USA, but here my Insight.
I am a VW nut, but don't no if the Touareg is the right choice. All depending how much Off-Road do you really want to go. With that said
From your Options i would go with a Jeep. Cheap parts, lots of parts and so on.

Here some other ideas:

Land Rover Discovery II, in europe they at least make them with a TDi

Just a idea that spooked in my Head.
Tahoe/Suburban as Base (very cheap in the USA, compered to Trucks)
Install a 6bt cummins (kick *** engine)
Cut the rear body away, and buildt nice straight wall body with a tent roof.



All depending how much 4 wheelin do you want to do, how much do you want to spend and so on .....


Mike
 

haven

Expedition Leader
Since you're in North America, I'd skip the Touareg and ML320 in favor of
the Grand Cherokee. As you note, the Grand has some support in the
USA after-market, while VW and MBZ depend on a few Euro sources.

With the cost of diesel fuel rising faster than unleaded regular, the
argument that diesel will save you money is getting a little thin. So I'd
say you need to be
(1) a certified diesel enthusiast or
(2) somebody who needs 7500 lbs of towing capacity
to even consider a diesel SUV. It would be a lot cheaper to buy a Grand Cherokee
with gas V8.

If you're thinking about a vehicle for world travel, or a larger vehicle that
will carry a heavy camper, then the equation changes somewhat.
 

Nomad_K

Adventurer
Hi guys,

Thank you for the thoughts and advice. Of the three, the Jeep makes the most sense... a standard gasoline/petrol Jeep or even and older diesel truck makes even more sense, I know. I guess I wanted to try something a little different without getting in over my head (or emptying the wallet).

Other options -

Trooper - I didn't know they did a TD trouper in the US - I will look around a bit.

Suburban - I was trying to go for something that I could daily drive as opposed to having a commuter and a truck/weekend rig. I don't want to jog around DC in a Suburban, Expedition or Ram. With the price of some of those options though, I could probably keep a cheap commuter and leave the truck with a friend who lives outside of town.

Global Expedition - I will hold off on the global expedition rig until I am in a country where I can get a four door diesel Hilux as a base rig, and will drive forth from there. I have seen some neat BJ4* and Defender diesels (coming in with the 25 year rule) but I am not keen on either of those as a daily driver (seems like a waste of a vehicle that should be out roaming around) AND I really like Hilux parts availability outside of the US.

As for why a diesel - I have lived overseas (Aus & around SE Asia) for 8 years and have grown accustomed to diesel powered truck - torque, range, and economy in most places. I could probably tow most anything I am looking at in the next year with a V6 Grand Cherokee, much less the V8. After :coffeedrink: the diesel coffee though, it is difficult to go back.
 
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bugnout

Adventurer
Jeep sold about 10000 2.8L diesel Liberty's in model year 2005 and 2006. Quite a few more than the 3.0L Diesel Grands.

I own one of them.
 

nbleak21

Adventurer
yes, those CRD libertys are quite nice little vehicles. but they are little. I was debating whether to get a cherokee or a liberty deisel for the wife, but I could see gasoline being put in on accident... and the room would be a little bit tight for family outings. (plus I like the parts selection of xjs better)
 

Nomad_K

Adventurer
Hi Bugnout, nbleak21,

Thank you for the thoughts about the Liberty. I helped a friend look for used Liberty's back in 07 - we read and heard (via chats with a Jeep mechanic or two) that there were a few issues with the transmission (torque converter) and the Motori diesel that hadn't been sorted at the time.

Is there a short list of things to look out for and things to do to get the CRD in order for a few years of reliable touring?
 

nbleak21

Adventurer
Nomad, wish I could help you out, but the extent to my knowledge stops at a couple of short test drives around town and some light off road (fire trails) in which it performed flawlessly. only the slightest bit of lag from a stop, with plenty of pep, and handled the trails just like any other KJ that I've been in.

Space and aftermarket availability stopped me before I started researching the mechanicals.

Good Luck with your quest, though!
 

bugnout

Adventurer
There are a couple of issues that are correctable.

First issue is the fuel management head - original was prone to develop air leaks and need constant priming. The design has been revised and many had it replaced under warranty. The new part number fixes the issue. I replaced mine early on with a RACOR which was std on the 2004 and earlier export models.

The Torque converter for both years was replaced under recall. At the same time they reflashed the TCM to change the shift points and reduce torque slightly. I don't notice the difference much but some owners were peeved by the reduction. There is at least one vendor that will reverse this for you. Fairly popular to replace the std TC with the model from the export Wrangler Diesel or the after market Suncoast TC

The lower ball joints were replaced on recall. popular upgrade is the Moog greasables.

Lots of owners had problems with EGR valves failing. mine was replaced under warranty then I fixed the issue permanently. An operating EGR will foul the MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor, less now that we have low sulfer fuel. Inspection every once in a while is recommended.

Thats about it for what to look for.

Some other popular mods:
-Remove the muffler or replace with glasspack for less restrictive exhaust
-ECM programming - at least two companies will optimize engine operation for performance or fuel economy
-Lift pump - not strictly neccessary, but the injection pump sucks fuel from the tank through the fuel head. Most diesels using the CP3 injection pump have an intank lift pump to supply fuel at 3-4 psi instead of suction. Jeep contemplated a lift pump because the wiring, relay and fuse are already there, just the pump is missing.

Main differences between 2005 and 2006:
2005 have ABS with wheel sensors on front and a speed sensor on the rear diff
2006 have ABS on all 4 wheels - to faciliate Traction Control
 

biere

Observer
Right now the bank and I own my diesel grand so I readily admit to not being serious about taking it offroad. I would rather get it paid off than spend much on upgrades on it right now.

The jeep grand cherokees had a few different 4x4 systems offered and since the diesel generally came on optioned out vehicles most of them seem to have the quadradrive II, I think that is right. It is the spiffiest 4x4 system they put in the jeep grand cherokees and it electronically locks up the differentials as needed for traction.

Anyway, if you have not done some reading on some jeep boards in their wk sections I recomend running some searches on them to learn about the 4x4 systems and what you think of them.

My jeep is my only vehicle and the qdII system is great in various weather conditions and I bought the diesel because I wanted a diesel. Don't know if the mileage will pay for it or not, and I gave up trying to care about it. I downsized from a dually 03 dodge 4x4 with the cummins since I did not need to haul or tow much and the grand can tow more than I care to tow these days.

Lots of folks have abused the heck out of gasser grands with the qdII 4x4 system and it has held up very well in my opinion.

I consider the suspension soft, but then I like the ride of 1 ton leaf spring trucks so that is to be expected.

Since old man emu makes some heavy duty springs for my grand I have them on a list but won't get around to buying them for a while unless I find them on a serious sale.

I just rolled 37k miles on my 07 grand and all I do is car camp with it or tow my quad around or go to work.

Growing up I did some work around older mercedes stuff and I do tend to like how the germans do things but I could not get myself to go look at the mercedes with this engine. Having this engine in this jeep with this 4x4 system was kind of like a made for me vehicle, but it is sprung a bit soft and could use a few changes. But I won't be looking for more power, it does rather well if I let it do the job.

I had done some reading on the vw but they were not plentiful enough for me to consider them at all.

I did not realize so few diesel liberties had been made and did not realize even fewer diesel grands had been made.

So far no issues with mine and range with stock fuel tank is great but if I ever get a bumper to stick the spare on the rear bumper I would add to fuel capacity simply because I prefer to extend range as much as possable and buy fuel as rarely as possable.

I tried to give some good things about the jeep in this post but if you are considering the diesel grand I would spend some time reading on some jeep boards about the wk series and see what some folks have done to it. Seeing some of the offroad videos from the hemi grands has taught me that the stock drivetrain will do all I need, I just want some stiffer springs and maybe a bit taller springs just because everything can always use a raise.
 

bugnout

Adventurer
I did not realize so few diesel liberties had been made and did not realize even fewer diesel grands had been made.
.

They are still making them for EU and AUS. Unfortunately they only sold 10000 in North America. So its not unique, and the parts are readily available for the VM engine as its used in many applications. (including tractors :sombrero: )
 

Nomad_K

Adventurer
Hey guys,

Thank you for all of the great info! I read up on the Liberty over on LOST... great forum and info there. It sounds like minimal fuss to get the Liberty in good running order. That said, I found a few for sale where the owners were changing to a WK Grand Cherokee...

Bierre, thank you for the little report on your Grand Cherokee diesel experience. I have read up on the WK and considered a used hemi as the difference in cost would pay for enough gas to run the thing for quite awhile. The stock 4wd system on the WK looks great.

The other half has given me a nudge towards the ML - better mileage, still available new/certified, air suspension gets it as high as I would need, and I have to admit that Chrysler service even before the sale has not impressed me (another story for another time). That said... if I can find a decent deal on a diesel WK, I think that the combination of plentiful WK parts and a fair number of the Mercedes diesel engines floating around would leave me with few worries.
 

x32792

Adventurer
With the cost of diesel fuel rising faster than unleaded regular, the
argument that diesel will save you money is getting a little thin. So I'd
say you need to be
(1) a certified diesel enthusiast or
(2) somebody who needs 7500 lbs of towing capacity
to even consider a diesel SUV. It would be a lot cheaper to buy a Grand Cherokee with gas V8.

If you're thinking about a vehicle for world travel, or a larger vehicle that
will carry a heavy camper, then the equation changes somewhat.

I just drove across the States and diesel fuel was priced to eliminate any advantage over gas burners.

With the high initial cost of a NEW diesel vehicle plus the current diesel fuel prices in mind, I'm leaning towards upgrading what I have with some Penny Tech to squeeze just a bit more performance out of it.

The question for me becomes, "How long will it take to recovery an investment in diesel anything?"

John
 
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Nomad_K

Adventurer
If fuel prices, taxes, and the general 'landscape' in the US continue to push us towards gas vs diesel, I don't know if you, I, or anyone would ever save that much money on paper, in the short term.

I do like the idea of burning less fuel to travel the same distance. I also like the idea of the US importing less fuel because of that. Enjoying the way a good diesel drives just adds icing to the cake, for me. That said most of my friends are trying to talk me out of a diesel and into a RAV4 or some other soft roader.
 

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