Poll: Tubes or tubeless?

[Cackalak Han]

Just wondering what you guys ride. Please state location and riding style.

I'm in the Rockies and ride mostly XC. Always used tubes. Just built the wife's bike w/ tubeless wheels. I am going to try them out (ZTR Arch/Crest) on my new singlespeed build.

 

[mitssan]

I do most of my riding in the Rocky's too (just north of the border).

On my XC bike I see not advantage to tubeless. On an XC bike the weight works out about the same either way, you end up running higher pressure so there is little chance of a pinch flat and if you get a puncture on a tubeless tire you will be running tubes the rest of the life of that tire anyway.

On my DH rig (it's a freeride bike but i don't jump over roads) I run tubeless. I usually go through a set of tires in a year anyway so the chance or writing one off with a puncture is slim. I also prefer to run lower pressures so there is a much higher chance of pinch flat. Pinch flat prevention is really the biggest advantage of a tubeless setup.

Maurie

 

[IdaSHO]

MTB or road, the slight weight savings is far overshadowed by the difficulty of repairing a flat.

All you need to repair a flat with a tube tire is a patch.

both my MTB and road bike have a pack of patches, as well as a spare tube on board at all times. Funny though, I go through MANY more patches on my road bike. Even rolling on 120PSI 18mm tires :Wow1:

 

[SOAZ]

Sharp rocks, cactus and lots of both.
Tubeless. No flats in 3 years on a Santa Cruz Blur. I weigh about 160-170 usually. Running about 24-26 psi

 

[tacollie]

I live in Colorado. I ride xc on a steel hard tail and run about 25 psi. I weigh about 200lbs. I run Stans on non ust stuff. Give it a try, if it doesn't work it is easy to through a tube in.

 

[Christophe Noel]

I ride road, mountain and cyclocross up in the pines of Arizona. Love my tubes. Since moving here in 2003 I've logged more than 50,000 miles on and off road with maybe 6 road flats, 1 cyclocross flat on the forest roads and less than 6 flats on my mountain bike. Off road, I ride XC in pretty kind terrain. Not a lot of cactus or pokies. My last mountain bike flat was in 2008 on a ride with Scott, so that was clearly his fault.

Now I have to go knock on some wood.

 

[Christophe Noel]

Even rolling on 120PSI 18mm tires :Wow1:

That makes sense. That high PSI on such low deformation tires will always yield a greater number of punctures. If however, you rode on 25c tires with latex tubes, your flat issue would decline. Latex tubes are great. Think of poking an inflated balloon at the super stretchy part of the balloon by the valve. As you poke that area with a needle, the balloon stretches pretty far before the needle goes through. Now do the same thing with a butyl tube. Since it isn't very elastic, the needle passes right through it. Toss in some talc with the latex tubes and you have a road tube that can resists all sorts of pokey bits. The only downer - latex bleeds air, so you have to inflate daily, which you probably should do anyway. In 2003 and 2004 I logged 16,000 miles on Michelin Pro Race tires, latex tubes and didn't have a single flat.

As a bonus, that larger tire at lower PSI will proved a lower rolling resistance. Unless you ride on a mahogany velodrome, 25c tires at say 100 psi will roll much faster than 18c shoes at 125psi.

 

[FreeManDan]

MTB or road, the slight weight savings is far overshadowed by the difficulty of repairing a flat.

All you need to repair a flat with a tube tire is a patch.

both my MTB and road bike have a pack of patches, as well as a spare tube on board at all times. Funny though, I go through MANY more patches on my road bike. Even rolling on 120PSI 18mm tires :Wow1:

....but I never get flats, I ride 3 times a week on a good week, and I have damaged the side walls of a tubeless tire twice in the past 2 years. I repaired it both times with a spare tube, and one of those times I put a patch on the inside to keep the tube from popping out of the rift like bubble gum bubbles....it might not have been necessary, as the kevlar usually holds where rubber dose not.
But in the spring of 2008 (before I switched to tubeless) I got 3 flats in one short ride, I had to take the wheel off 4 times because one of my "patches" (trying to be dramatic about the word patches) didn't hold! I got eaten by mosquitos, the sun went down and i didn't bring a light, it was suppose to be a short ride! I've been tubeless ever since I wont go back, no way in hell would I deviate from my current set up of tubeless, spare tube, pump AND co2, and patch kit. I even keep a spare tire in the truck, a riding buddy or my self could retrieve it so the other person doesn't have to WALK off the trail (witch would be beneath me).
One time my riding buddy had a tubeless tire get a god awful pregnant spot on both sides, as it came apart at the seems and started rubbing the frame. He had a 26er so my spare tire wouldn't help, but luck would have it happen at the end of the trail and SOMEHOW didn't explode. I would chock that up to old tires rather than tube or no tube debate. I've also seen a tire with tube blow up out of no where! 30 psi, new bike, just finished a 12 mile trail, loaded in the truck when minutes later, BLAM! 6 inch rip out of the blue.

What I really am trying to say is crap can happen to any rig, but casual flats because of mesquite, cactus, briers, thorns, devil's walking stick, prickly ash, the dungy wucky bird, ect. are a thing of the past with tubeless and stans.

 

[deepsouth]

Tubeless for sure. I raced all over the south east for 5 years. One of those years was for Gary Fisher. Run a UST rim and UST tire with 1 cup of Stans sealant in each tire. If you puncture your tire, jump off, spin it, the stans will seal it and then shoot it up with a "big Air" (one of the larger Co2's) and your good to go. The system is a little heavy but its the only way to go.

 

[mountainsoul]

Tubeless for sure. I raced all over the south east for 5 years. One of those years was for Gary Fisher. Run a UST rim and UST tire with 1 cup of Stans sealant in each tire. If you puncture your tire, jump off, spin it, the stans will seal it and then shoot it up with a "big Air" (one of the larger Co2's) and your good to go. The system is a little heavy but its the only way to go.

This.

I hated fixing flats so tubeless is the only way to go for me. The ability to run lower pressure at times is nice too.

 

[Cackalak Han]

Quick question to tubeless gurus---so in the event that the tire comes unseated (of course followed by an endo ), can you just stick a tube in there and continue on your way?

 

[FreeManDan]

yes, if the tire can not at all be seated you may take out the "no tube" rim strip (if applicable) and or valve stem and put in the tube, if you use the plastic type rim strip you can leave it in. The rim can usually be reseated using CO2 much the same way you would a car tire with a power tank. If you are allergic to latex, consider something other they the usual stans or you'll be hating life, might try slime witch I believe is not latex based.
If I run air pressure less than 25, with the twisty of trails north texas the tires will "burp", that is loose air out of the bead when the tire gets pulled of the rim and usually gets right back on. I have never had total loss of air due to a burp or rim coming off. If a burp occurs, use ether CO2 to quickly force the tire bead back on the rim, or use a pump, put lots of air in and wait for a thunk sound around 40psi (if applicable due to tire not fully seating on the rim after burp) and let out air to your desired amount. Me being a 165lb rider with a 6lb camlback, I stay above 30 for my given terrain, tire brand, and ow yeah its a 29er, 30psi is rather squishy.

 

[IdaSHO]

That makes sense. That high PSI on such low deformation tires will always yield a greater number of punctures. If however, you rode on 25c tires with latex tubes, your flat issue would decline. Latex tubes are great. Think of poking an inflated balloon at the super stretchy part of the balloon by the valve. As you poke that area with a needle, the balloon stretches pretty far before the needle goes through. Now do the same thing with a butyl tube. Since it isn't very elastic, the needle passes right through it. Toss in some talc with the latex tubes and you have a road tube that can resists all sorts of pokey bits. The only downer - latex bleeds air, so you have to inflate daily, which you probably should do anyway. In 2003 and 2004 I logged 16,000 miles on Michelin Pro Race tires, latex tubes and didn't have a single flat.

Makes sense about the punctures.



500 miles or so ago I picked up a set of michelin lithion 2 for my touring bike, 700c x 18. I was cleaning up my bike for the spring, and it was due for tires. These are the best the local shop had.

So far Ive had two flats. First was a simple snake bite, my error, not inflating them enough the first go around. I thought I could get away with 100 PSI. I was wrong. I think I had the tube twisted a bit as well. Those tires dont leave much room in there for a tube!

Second was a shard of glass.

So far though, they have been the least flat prone tires Ive run. And they seem to be fantastic tires all around. Im slowly growing more and more confident in their sidewall grip. :victory:

As a bonus, that larger tire at lower PSI will proved a lower rolling resistance. Unless you ride on a mahogany velodrome, 25c tires at say 100 psi will roll much faster than 18c shoes at 125psi.

But I dont buy the rolling resistance difference. Especially when you claim that a LOWER PSI in a wider tire will roll better than a narrow at higher PSI.

Similar PSI, sure, but not lower.

And yes, the roads are very smooth here. And we have an awesome polished blacktop between towns to commute on. Smooth as glass :coffeedrink:

 

[Christophe Noel]

But I dont buy the rolling resistance difference. Especially when you claim that a LOWER PSI in a wider tire will roll better than a narrow at higher PSI.

Similar PSI, sure, but not lower.

And yes, the roads are very smooth here. And we have an awesome polished blacktop between towns to commute on. Smooth as glass :coffeedrink:

You don't have to believe me - believe the results published by countless labs including the results from the MIT Cycling Science department. Rolling resistance is about deformation of the tire in relation to road imperfections. If you ignore the science, look at 100 years of racing. For riding on the mahogony velodrome in London, you might ride high TPI hand made silk Dugast tires at 18c inflated to 180 psi because there is no need for tire deformation on such a smooth surface. Take those same tires to the cobbles of the Arenburg forest in Belgium and see if you can get those wagon wheels up to 10mph. The rougher the road, the larger the tire needs to be and in many cases, the lower the PSI.

There's a reason why 90% of the tires in the world are 23c tires. Given the average weight of riders and the average condition of roads, those tires provide the most comfortable ride, lowest rolling resistance and greatest durability.

The Mavic lab years ago did two back to back studies that showed an 18c tire was the most aerodynamic (duh) on the front wheel, but that advantage could only be achieved on road surfaces that were unusually smooth - as in impossibly smooth. I remember Bevin DeGrolder, our team director in Belgium, looking at my 20c Specialized Turbo C tires (this was 1990) and saying, "You planning to ride pursuit today [on the velodrome]?" Then he handed me some 26c tires and said, "Welcome to the Old World." Even today, I usually race on 23c tires inflated to 100psi for most events unless it's a TT on pristine roads where I might run the same tires at 118. For some of the bumpity chip-seal roads in AZ I will even race on 25c Tufo tubulars inflated to 95psi.

I'd bet you every bike I own, you shoe up 23c VeloFlex tires at 110psi and they WILL be faster than your current 18c tires at 125. Bet my last buck.

 

[IdaSHO]

My point was directed towards your comparison using DIFFERENT pressures.

A 23mm tire will have less rolling resistance than a 18mm tire at the same PSI. Assuming you are talking about the SAME mfgr and model tire. Once you start changing the psi between the two, all bets are off. Unless you specify what type, model, width, psi, etc..... There are so many variables.


No real worries though. Last night I went on a search investigating the specific tire I have, and noticed nowhere online a listing for 18mm.

Turns out the tires I have ARE 23mm :friday: