White water boats

Black Dog

Makin' Beer.
Over the weekend me and my uncle and cousin did a little river trip on Bull River in north west Montana over the weekend. Me and my cousin both paddled little recreational kayaks and my uncle was in his white water kayak, I can't remember what brand or model or anything it is. The section of the river we did was the bottom 4 miles or so, and for the most part it is relatively calm but towards the end there was some technical bits with log jams and rocks to get around. And that got me hooked on white water.

I'm a bit of a chunky husky guy at 5'5" and 220 pounds, so I need a boat with a fair whack of capacity (80 gallon range is what I've been looking at). I'd like something with a good amount of rocker and a round chine since I'm just getting started with white water, and a larger cockpit for making it easier to get in and out. I'm thinking a creek boat or a river runner will be best mainly because of their larger capacities and also because for the foreseeable future I don't really anticipate getting into freestyle or playboating.

The ideal boat I've found so far is the Dagger Nomad 8.5. link Does anyone on this board have any experience with boats of similar dimensions to this one, or even with this exact boat? So far about the only bad things I've read is that it is a pretty big boat, but I kind of need a big boat because I'm a big guy.
 

grahamfitter

Expedition Leader
Most river-runner and longer creek boats are reasonable for learning to paddle whitewater. These things are pretty robust so I'd recommend getting a used kayak -- you may be able to pick up everything you need in one go for significantly less than you'd spend on a new boat.

Its worth getting instruction on the basic whitewater strokes and especially all safety related things! You can pick up some of it from books and DVDs but the real learning comes from doing.

Local kayak clubs are usually pretty friendly and can be good way to acquire equipment and learn.

Good luck and have fun!

Cheers,
Graham
 

Black Dog

Makin' Beer.
If I could get a used boat really similar to the Nomad I would be perfectly happy. I know that a wet suit and a better PFD are needed too, the PFD I have kept riding high on me because of the seat back of the kayak I was in and when I capsized it was pretty cold.

Missoula Craigslist has quite a few white water kayaks listed on it but a lot of them are either play boats or aren't quite enough capacity for me.
 

grahamfitter

Expedition Leader
If I could get a used boat really similar to the Nomad I would be perfectly happy. I know that a wet suit and a better PFD are needed too, the PFD I have kept riding high on me because of the seat back of the kayak I was in and when I capsized it was pretty cold.

Missoula Craigslist has quite a few white water kayaks listed on it but a lot of them are either play boats or aren't quite enough capacity for me.

When you're upside down, your best friend is a crash helmet! (That and a quick roll.)

Some more food for thought...

Always make sure that the pull cord on the sprayskirt is outside the cockpit. Every single time. Its easy to tuck it inside by mistake and if you have a decent sprayskirt that's the only way its coming off.

If you're swimming in a fast current and it gets shallow enough to stand up, that's a recipe for a foot entrapment between rocks on the riverbed. Swim all the way in.

Cheers,
Graham
 

Black Dog

Makin' Beer.
I wore a bicycle helmet over the weekend but luckily I didn't need it. The kayak I was in was an Old Town Otter, and I had a universal fit spray skirt and when I tipped over the skirt popped off on its own without me having to pull it. My uncle had a friend that accidentally put the handle on the inside of the cockpit and when he flipped he couldn't roll back up and had a hard time getting the skirt off, so correct use of a spray skirt is important too.

When I flipped it was entirely user error, and actually I'm kind of proud of it. There were two rocks that were followed by a third rock in the center. My uncle caught the eddy behind one of the first rocks, then my cousin went clear through to a pool off behind everything, and when I went through I tried to catch the eddy behind the third center rock but I was leaning the wrong direction (downstream to the main current instead of to the eddy). So as soon as I crossed the eddy line I went under real gracefully. When I came up I was in the eddy, so I wasn't going anywhere, and the boat was right next to me and I was able to pull the boat out to the side without drifting downstream too far. My uncle didn't see me dump it, and my cousin thought I did it on purpose because it happened so quickly and easily.
 

refried

Adventurer
Have you thought about an IK (inflatable kayak)? Aire and Sotar both make great boats that may work better than a 78 gallon creek boat.
 

Black Dog

Makin' Beer.
I've used inflatables before and I didn't really like them that much. They were just too responsive and sitting on top of the water rather than in it a little bit made them get pulled all over by the current. I think I'd like to get a hard boat.
 

Hannibal USA

Adventurer
Welcome to the world of whitewater! It's easy to become a junkie!

I'd HIGHLY recommend the Jackson Super Hero. It's similar to the Nomad, but has some outfitting goodies that are really great, like a cushy seat pad and an adjustable footrest/bulkhead that you can adjust while you're sitting in the boat.

I would also HIGHLY recommend taking a series of lessons, especially on-river lessons. Even the most mellow-looking of rivers are awfully powerful, and beginners can get into trouble really fast. Having a pro teach you basic paddling skills and the basics of river dynamics and reading a river will save you a lot of headaches (and money).
 

Hannibal USA

Adventurer
Just bought a couple of the Side Kicks (uber-mini version of the Super Hero) for our 4 and 5 year-old boys. I love the Jackson boats, and they are a GREAT company to do business with.
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
Always make sure that the pull cord on the sprayskirt is outside the cockpit. Every single time. Its easy to tuck it inside by mistake and if you have a decent sprayskirt that's the only way its coming off.

If you make this mistake, you should be able to punch it off. File that away in your brain somewhere, maybe even practice it. Could kill you otherwise.

On the original topic, try looking for a Dimension R5. That's what I have, it's sort of a Hybird. It can't play in the rapids, but it can run anything (I've done 3 and 4 in it), and well works in flatwater too.
 

grahamfitter

Expedition Leader
If you make this mistake, you should be able to punch it off. File that away in your brain somewhere, maybe even practice it. Could kill you otherwise.

None of my sprayskirts come off without a strong pull from the tab. The rand around the cockpit stays put even when there's a huge water force on the stretchy neoprene that would otherwise implode the skirt. (I've been there and done that and found that the subsequent and completely unnecessary swims generally weren't much fun!)

I have on several occasions been involuntarily separated from my kayak by a hydraulic strong enough to pull me out and the skirt off but I couldn't do that intentionally. Those swims weren't much fun either but to be honest I'm not sure if they weren't inevitable. :snorkel:

Cheers,
Graham
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
Hmmm... maybe things are different now. I haven't done white water in 10 years, but back when I did, my skirt held the water out in class 3 and 4 rapids, but I could also punch it off. I'd be a little nervous if I couldn't punch if off! That would have been in a Perception Dancer. (like I said, long time ago).
 

Black Dog

Makin' Beer.
For now in river running I'm using an Old Town Otter with some foot pegs added in and a universal fit spray skirt. It has popped off when ever I dumped it, but it isn't the super tight form fitting thing like you normally see on actual white water boats.
 

grahamfitter

Expedition Leader
Hmmm... maybe things are different now. I haven't done white water in 10 years, but back when I did, my skirt held the water out in class 3 and 4 rapids, but I could also punch it off. I'd be a little nervous if I couldn't punch if off! That would have been in a Perception Dancer. (like I said, long time ago).

I remember when Dancers were the new "short" boat! Damn I'm getting old...

Anyway, the kayaks of that bygone era had much smaller cockpits and you could usually punch the sprayskirt in if the neoprene wasn't too stretchy. Modern whitewater kayaks have huge cockpits with massive lips around them and larger sprayskirts that are designed to withstand larger forces of water hitting them.

Cheers,
Graham
 

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