How Biofuels Could Starve the Poor, Foreign Affairs, May/June 2007

dieselcruiserhead

16 Years on ExPo. Whoa!!
It is true and there are no easy answers. Here we are GMO and that is the way it is, and I don't think biofuels production will hurt much (is my guess), it will just change things.. But in other countries particularly the third world, yes I think it will be an issue. I believe about 25% of the world right now "goes to bed hungry" or something to that extent.. Also about 20-25% don't even have clean drinking water..

Anyway, at least if we are conscious about it we can be aware of it IMO...

PS welcome to the club Martyn! If you get a chance check out the links in my sig.. Especially the '69, it has pics of our bioidesel processor.. Totally by coincidence we have a group from Congo coming to visit the processor next week...
 

grahamfitter

Expedition Leader
DaveInDenver said:
Just an example that comes from something I recently read. If the price of something like corn goes up, two things would seem to happen. First, the people issue where food could become no longer affordable. But, second the market now moves to increase corn production. That could mean in countries trying to keep up with the world economy you could see an increase in conversion to farm lands of places that are currently rainforests. So the move to a biofuel could paradoxically cause increased environmental damage, which has a secondary affect of further reducing the earth's ability to convert CO2 to oxygen as the rainforests are crucial for this and actually accelerating the presumed build up of greenhouse gases.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6636467.stm

And unless something is done to prevent it, the nitrate fertilizer required to grow all that extra corn ends up in the rivers and ultimately in the ocean where it robs it of oxygen and kills the fish. Farms in the Mississippi watershed are already causing havoc in the Gulf of Mexico:

EWG Report: Dead Zone - Targeted conservation spending can restore the Gulf and clean up the Mississippi River (Hopefully this isn't another piece of dodgy research!)

Ironically, when Herr Diesel invented his engine, he envisaged communities would grow fuel oil for local consumption. I doubt he anticipated our insatiable appetite for fuel and the depths we're willing to sink to get it.

Cheers,
Graham
 

calamaridog

Expedition Leader
They had tortilla riots in Mexico this year. Cost of corn goes up and poor people starve to death. Unintended consequences my ass:shakin:
 

Erick Lihme

Observer
A combination of of technologies, from fuel cells to microbiology, as well as fuel sources, from coal to methlhydrate will compete and compliment each other to lower the cost per mile. Solutions might specific to regions and nations, and found in unexpected fields. Transportation consumes about a 5th of the energy used. Improvements in building materials, variable tint glazing techs to practical architectural designs, microhydo electic, thin film photovoltaics and super conductors transmitting power can contribute. It is an amazing mix and revolution to watch as it is all in the pipeline. Incremental application of the least expensive individual solutions and combinations, and fuel sources evolving may offset the tightening supply and demand.

Where there is a will there is a way. The recent concern about global warming helps us focus on our energy problems sooner than we might have otherwise. Co2 production issues complicates matters though. Remember the Deloraian in Back to the Future the last sequal, and the banana peel dropped into the "Mr. Fusion" brand generator, they are getting closer to that everyday.
 

Doin_It

Adventurer
Here is an interesting article on the up comming oil supply gap. (the writer states, I have been writing on oil supply issues since 1995, in particular the imminent supply gap and the looming new energy era; forecasting a peak in global oil supply arriving between 2010 and 2020 depending on demand growth.) He also has a grat slide presentation, under "presentations" You sure don't have to know what all he's talking about the graphs say it all, very interesting.
 

Lynn

Expedition Leader
Article on the news last night said that Mexican farmers are cutting down their agave to plant corn.

So, the poor won't starve, you'll just have to pay more for Tequila. ;)

Maybe I'm simplistic, but it seems to me that if vehicle fuel can be farmed, it puts poor people to work. Dino oil requires big 'start-up' bucks to extract.

Didn't I read somewhere that Jatropha plants have a high oil yield and grow in arid areas?

The market will meet the demand.
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Ethanol article with curious quotes. Do these stats seem reasonable or silly?

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=21699

"It takes 1 acre of corn to produce 300 to 330 gallons of ethanol fuel. (To replace the 200 billion gallons of petroleum products we now consume yearly, we would need to commit 675 million acres of our farmland to its production. That would be 71% of all available farmland in which case we would have to start importing our food products.)"

"It takes 4,000 gallons of fresh water per acre per day to replace evaporation in a cornfield. The crop will require 129.9 pounds of nitrogen and 55.5 pounds of phosphorus fertilizer per acre."

"...fields must be ploughed and cultivated, and crops must be harvested -- all by petroleum-driven farm equipment. That requires 6.85 gallons of diesel fuel and 3.4 gallons of gasoline per acre. And to finish the distillation process after harvest requires 3.42 gallons of LPG and 33.49 kWh of electricity per acre."

"All in all, it takes 1.597 gallons of diesel and gasoline used in the corn crop growth, harvesting, shipping of corn to ethanol production, and distribution of ethanol to the consumer for every 1 gallon of ethanol that is produced."
 

TxRider

Observer
Seems silly to me.

First they say an acre will produce 300 gallons, then they say it costs about 13 gallons of fuel and 33kwh of electricity. That doesn't sound like a 1.5 to 1 ratio to me.

As well, farmers I've heard from say the corn mash left over from distilling is better for cows (who aren't meant to eat corn in the first place) easier to digest and more nutritious, and it all goes to livestock feed and gets used twice. Then you can haul the 18 wheeler loads of cow manure from the feed lots and use it on the corn fields........

Of course you could also make alcohol from sugar cane a lot easier, and you could grow that in mass all along the gulf coast.
 

dieselcruiserhead

16 Years on ExPo. Whoa!!
This was posted on the forum I own about biodiesel / ethanol by a farmer. Probably the best first-hand info I have read specifically about it... ([http://www.4btswaps.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10600&postcount=13]original post[/ul]).




ECONOMICS OF BIODIESEL and or ETHANOL

CORN, is and has been primarily raised to feed cattle, hogs, chickens, ect. Previously, corn has been raised then directly fed. With ethanol the corn is fermented, cooked, the mash is then fed resulting in a small loss in feed and around 3 gallons ethanol retained for fuel out of each bushel of corn. THE CORN WILL BE RAISED AND FED REGARDLESS IF THE ETHANOL IS EXTRACTED OR NOT. Therefore should ALL of the fuel used for production be calculated against ethanol production????????

Now, Soybeans are primarily a high protein hog (pork) food. To feed soybeans to hogs the beans must be cooked. The most economical way to cook beans is to run them through a extruder (large screw press) which heats the beans from the extreme pressure, in this process it separates the oil from bean meal. The meal is fed to hogs, fish, chickens, etc. The oil is still leftovers about 10% which can be used for cooking oil or biodiesel. Sunflowers net about 48% oil but the feedstock is not as desirable as it doesn't have as much protein content per ton as beans, however the oil is a lot easier to refine into fuel and is thinner than bean oil which is easier to mist through the diesels injectors than bean oil. NOW, taking these factors into the equation, is it more economical to raise corn then feed it or is it better to retain the fuel then feed it???? The bean oil that is already being extracted, should it be dumped into the ocean or should it be used for fuel???????? Switchgrass may produce more ethanol but may not have good feed value if any therefore you may have to factor all of the switchgass production costs and fuel consumption towards the fuel gained, where here in the USA the corn and beans are a multi-use product that can easily be stored for long periods(a year) ,where switchgrass may have to be used up in very short term, resulting in delivery problems and major crop losses, ethanol plants can only process so much at one time, some countries are in a warmer climate where they can produce grass year round but in the USA we have winter and not much of anything grows in the frozen dirt, we only have around 3 months of production, then nothing.

The Einsteins (or so they think) who doubt the feasibility of ethanol work very hard gathering all the data they can get to make sure they don't leave out any factors, however they get lost in all the data and numbers and forget about the primary purpose for which corn was raised, the primary purpose is feeding livestock which turn into people food. The primary purpose does not get figured into there equations. WHY????? Corn will be planted, harvested, and trucked to elevators to be trucked to point of usage even if ethanol is not removed beforehand. Making ethanol from corn does NOT destroy feed value, the primary purpose for which corn is raised. Corn averages 150bu per acre @ 3 gal ethanol per bu that is 450 gal acre (don't forget primary purpose) how much more productive can we be??? Another point is that it does NOT require anywhere close to 450 gal of fuel to raise an acre of corn and deliver it (unless you're delivering it to the moon or Venus), so therefore the farmers are still feeding the dense Einsteins (along with the general public), except now they are producing energy at the same time! Whats not to like????? Bean oil production could easily be increased by 3 times as much just by planting a different variety of beans that currently exists, however the primary purpose is hog feed which in turn is Bacon, Pork Chops, and such, and the high oil beans don't work so good to produce as much Pork, so which is more important, eating or driving an Escalate / Excursion????
 

Erick Lihme

Observer
coal gasification

The price of wheat and other crops are going up as they are being replaced with corn. Not good. Conservation is still the best method. From what I'm seeing, it appears that coal-gasification is the way to go. The process is clean with modern plants and is now cost effective. The problem: coal has a dirty name, and strip mining is ugly. However, the future high price of fuel may force adaption and we are the Saudi Arabia of coal.
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Erick Lihme said:
The price of wheat and other crops are going up as they are being replaced with corn. Not good. Conservation is still the best method. From what I'm seeing, it appears that coal-gasification is the way to go. The process is clean with modern plants and is now cost effective. The problem: coal has a dirty name, and strip mining is ugly. However, the future high price of fuel may force adaption and we are the Saudi Arabia of coal.

South Africa is the leader in turning coal into fuel. It's how they drove their industrial complex during the apartheid era, and they continue to use the process today. China is utilizing their expertise as they have huge coal reserves but little oil.

The problem I see is that coal is a fossil fuel so it is adding pollutants and carbon to the atmosphere. Bio fuels are a closed system so they are not adding new carbon to the atmosphere.
 

dieselcruiserhead

16 Years on ExPo. Whoa!!
Martyn said:
The problem I see is that coal is a fossil fuel so it is adding pollutants and carbon to the atmosphere. Bio fuels are a closed system so they are not adding new carbon to the atmosphere.

Agree here as well...
 

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