What about the DEF system when you travel to Third World countries?

John E Davies

Adventurer
Hi; This is my first post.

I visited the EarthRoamer plant last summer, was shown around for an hour (I bought an ER shirt!) and I was extremely impressed by the two vehicles I looked through. I really want one, but I am concerned about the new emissions junk.

The Ford DEF system can freeze up if subjected to below 10 degree F sustained temperatures, and a system failure like a bad level sensor can strand the vehicle, since the engine computer can shut down the engine.

In Mexico and Latin America you can't buy DEF and you would have to transport large quantities during a long trip.

How do the EarthRoamer folks address this serious safety issue, other than perhaps recommending that you buy an older truck?

Does EarthRoamer insulate and/ or heat the Ford DEF tank to prevent freezing?

I haven't heard anything about an aftermarket "DEF delete" kit (yet), but assuming one becomes available so your engine would continue to operate with an empty DEF tank, you still would run the risk of plugging up or ruining the DEF can (where the fluid gets injected). Maybe an exhaust bypass pipe with a manually controlled butterfly valve would work.

Comments and ideas will be greatly appreciated. I would HOPE that EarthRoamer will sell these fine vehicles with a DEF bypass system already installed. Otherwise, camping south of the border will involve major headaches and expense!

'Thanks

John Davies
Spokane WA
 

Lynn

Expedition Leader
Hi John, and welcome!

Would love to hear more about your travel plans and experiences. I don't have an answer for you; on the other hand I feel obliged to ask a question. :)

Since your question is specific to Earthroamer vehicles, have you asked them? I have never contacted them, but I was under the impression they are fairly responsive.
 
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Bill Beers

Explorer
Hey John,

The Ford DEF system can freeze up if subjected to below 10 degree F sustained temperatures, and a system failure like a bad level sensor can strand the vehicle, since the engine computer can shut down the engine.

Ford, (and I'll bet all SCR-using OEMs,) have an in-tank heater to keep the urea at operating temperature. The computer won't dose the SCR catalyst w/urea until it is up to temp.

In Mexico and Latin America you can't buy DEF and you would have to transport large quantities during a long trip.

While you may not be able to buy it in Mexico/Latin America, the DEF tank on the Ford is about 5 gallons, and lasts for 7500 miles. One gallon refill jugs are $4.99 at Shucks, and wouldn't take up too much space on a bigger vehicle, nor would it be too expensive to ship to a mail drop.

I haven't heard anything about an aftermarket "DEF delete" kit (yet), but assuming one becomes available...

I really hope we don't hear about a "DEF delete kit."

...camping south of the border will involve major headaches and expense!...

It won't be so bad! :)

-Bill
 

GR8ADV

Explorer
The Ford DEF system can freeze up if subjected to below 10 degree F sustained temperatures, and a system failure like a bad level sensor can strand the vehicle, since the engine computer can shut down the engine.

In Mexico and Latin America you can't buy DEF and you would have to transport large quantities during a long trip.

Does EarthRoamer insulate and/ or heat the Ford DEF tank to prevent freezing?

From another Forum...

"For all of you asking about the freezing point of DEF. It doesn't freeze, except under extreme temps that few of us ever see. It turns slushy. The DEF tanks in ALL applications, large and small, as well as the supply line, are insulated and heated. The EPA allows 45 min for the DEF system to thaw and begin operating. In my discussions with Cummins and Detroit Diesel they tell me that testing has shown 15 min to be sufficient. Shelf life is affected by temperature, but reports I have read indicate that even in high temp situations 6 months should be no problem."

From other quick searches it also appears that a bypass or other 'fooling' of the system could be very problematic. This is consistent with my experience with modern auto computers in that there are many unintended consequences that arise with the 'fixing' of another. And given the trucks have systems in place to shut the engine down and/or limp, and to not allow restarts with no/low levels; there is much at stake.

Given that some reports say you can go anywhere from 3-7k miles (experience varies here) depending on a variety of things per a 5 gal DEF tank, this does prove to be very problematic outside NA if you can't buy it.
 
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Bill Beers

Explorer
...Given that one can go about 3-7k miles (experience varies here) depending on a variety of things per a 5 gal DEF tank, this does prove to be very problematic outside NA if you can't buy it.

Yeah, I pulled the 7.5K figure off of Ford's website, and it is probably pretty generous. I'll bet 3-7K is more accurate.
 

John E Davies

Adventurer
Thanks for the comments so far. I haven't emailed EarthRoamer yet, I wanted to hear some impartial opinions first. I also posted at http://www.thedieselstop.com/forums/f149/def-hazards-third-world-countries-277567/#post2033699

I don't have any expedition experience really - I have mostly tent camped in the Western USA. My wife has had enough of that ;( When our final kid goes off to college, we will (hopefully) sell our house and perhaps get an EarthRoamer for more serious exploring, maybe for a couple of months at a time. It won't be any 2 year trips, but Mexico and further south are certainly in the picture, as well as Canada and Alaska.

LX450-06.JPG


http://spokanister.net/newsite/John_E_Davies_Website.html

Under heavy load you use lots of DEF - how about creeping along in 4WD Low? How quickly does the system draw down?

I guess you could carry a couple of gallons of DEF and have some shipped in to a city en route. Bit what a PITA to have to worry about that when on vacation!

John Davies
Spokane WA
 
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Bill Beers

Explorer
It looks like Air1 is distributing AdBlue, (DEF,) globally. Hard to tell how extensive the supply network is yet, but there are indvidual websites for Mexico, Chile, South Africa, Australia, etc.
 

cwsqbm

Explorer
DEF wouldn't be a worry - it wouldn't be that hard to carry enough to last 20,000 miles or more. The problem would be making sure you always put USLD in the tank.
 

GR8ADV

Explorer
DEF wouldn't be a worry - it wouldn't be that hard to carry enough to last 20,000 miles or more. The problem would be making sure you always put USLD in the tank.

I guess it is all relative. For me hauling around 20 gallons of this is more than I would prefer. But each to their own.

I do expect that, as others have posted, the availability issue may resolve itself soon. Capitalism at work.
 

LukeH

Adventurer
Don't forget to pack the satellite data link antenna.
Friends of mine in a modern MAN had an ecu problem in west Africa. MAN fixed it directly online via the data link. Impressive but scary in a way.
I wonder if Ford customer service would be capable of that.

Imho the very last non electronic trucks aren't going to devalue as quickly as one might expect.
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Seeing as Urea is very common world wide as a source of nitrogen in fertilizer I would think that a "home brew" solution to this problem would be an option.
 

Lynn

Expedition Leader
Seeing as Urea is very common world wide as a source of nitrogen in fertilizer I would think that a "home brew" solution to this problem would be an option.

And urea is a component of urine, right? So bottle your urine as you are traveling and convert it?
 

Bill Beers

Explorer
And urea is a component of urine, right? So bottle your urine as you are traveling and convert it?

I think that would be a time consuming process: Human urine is ~2-2.5% urea content, compared to the 32.5% content of aqueous urea/DEF/AdBlue.

And yuck. :sombrero:
 

howell_jd

Adventurer
Can't resist!

This discussion started full of hot air and has headed into the toilet! Exhausting!

Bad puns I know.

Jonathan
 

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