GMRS as an alternative to CB or 2m?

Martinjmpr

Wiffleball Batter
After reading through and commenting on this thread:

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/62837-Who-s-still-running-both-a-CB-and-HAM

I did a little online researching.

Here's my question for the group:

For US-based travel only (and I say this because I don't know about the availability of GMRS outside the US) wouldn't GMRS be a viable alternative to CB and HAM for travel/off road use?

Seems to me that GMRS offers several distinct advantages over both HAM and CB. Among them:

1. Unlike HAM, GMRS licensing requirement does not require a test. As I said in the other thread, I don't need another hobby. I just need to be able to talk to others when I'm off-road. I don't really care about the relationship between Ohms and Watts and Volts and Amps. I just need to be able to push a button and say "Can you hear me now?" Nothing against HAMs or other electronics enthusiasts, but I've got enough on my plate, I don't need to invest more of my time and energy into a hobby that doesn't interest me.

2. Sound quality: Unlike CB, which operates in the 11 meter (27mhz) HF band using AM, GMRS operates in the UHF band (462 - 467 mhz) and is FM. Quieter, better sound quality.

3. Higher frequency means smaller antennae. I haven't crunched the numbers but the 462 - 467mhz band is pretty close to the 440mhz amateur band and that is 70cm. ~70cm band means that a half-wavelength antenna would only be ~35cm or about 14" long. Even a 5/8 wavelength wouldn't be more than 20". Easy to install and small enough that it wouldn't get in the way.

4. Repeaters. Right now 2m and 440 are popular because there are so many repeaters out there, but (at least from what I've read) GMRS repeaters are available.

5. Ability to communicate with popular FRS radios. If I understand correctly, GMRS overlaps FRS so that while GMRS can communicate on all FRS channels, FRS radios can only communicate on SOME GMRS channels.

So what are the downsides? Well, the biggest one is that GMRS is primarily used for commercial communications in cities and towns. Obviously a radio with nobody to talk to is pretty much a paperweight. But if more people started buying and using GMRS as an alternative means of communication, I think the markets would catch up.

Now, I don't think that GMRS can ever replace HAM, because HAM radios are for enthusiasts who are really into radios and radio communication. The enthusiasts will always want to have their own segment of the radio spectrum and will do what they can to keep the "yahoos" out.

But I do think that GMRS could potentially occupy the same place in the market that is now occupied by CB: People who need short-range communications in remote areas that are outside cell phone range.

So what are the thoughts?

And one final question: What ever happened to MURS? :confused: Wasn't MURS designed to be the "new Citizens Band?" MURS is in the 150mhz (VHF) range and IIRC is FM. As a Citizens Band it requires no licensing. And yet - until I started researching today, I'd never even heard of MURS and certainly I've never in my life seen a MURS radio.
 

Pskhaat

2005 Expedition Trophy Champion
Both GMRS and MURS are viable alternatives with one LARGE problem: no true dedicated mobile products. You can buy handies that include GMRS but are bound by the physical design to be FRS compliant.

So yeah, it'd be great, but the commercial and consumer volume problem is in the lack of product. They'd cost about as much if not more than Ham equipment today, are you willing to spend that extra money on a GMRS radio when the Ham test is so achievable?
 

Martinjmpr

Wiffleball Batter
I did see a lot of mobile UHF radios that seem to cover the entire GMRS spectrum from around 450mhz to 490mhz. I guess they're either intended for commercial users or police/fire/ems. I would also imagine that the radios need to be programmed to specific frequencies. Price ranges were in the $300 - up range and programming them would probably add to the price.

So, you are right, there is a lack of "plug and play" options in the GMRS band, but it's a bit of a 'chicken-and-egg' conundrum, isn't it? Nobody makes them because nobody uses them. And nobody uses them because nobody makes them. :rolleyes:

I think you are also correct that the huge number of options in the 2m/440 HAM bands makes GMRS a less attractive option for manufacturers.

I suppose that for me the solution is to either accept the limitations of CB (which is what I currently do) or just bite the bullet and then get my Tech license back (I was actually a Tech+ because I did the CW portion, but IIRC the FCC has removed the CW requirement from all license classes, right? In any case, last time I checked Tech got all privileges above 30mhz and I have no interest in anything below 30mhz anyway.)

But it's unfortunate because there are people (like me) who need communication but who don't really get "into" radio enough to want to jump through the hoops to get a HAM license.
 

mountainpete

Spamicus Eliminatus
GMRS radios are useful, small and cheap. However, in my experience, never achieve their posted range. I keep a set in my truck for use with spotters or if someone wants to wander off from camp. Great for keeping in touch with family members at Disneyland too :)

However, here in Canada the rules for GMRS are different than the USA. Only handhelds are allowed - no mobile installs, no repeaters, no base stations and other maximum power restrictions. I think it's 2 or 3 watts max on GMRS frequencies. As a result, they will never trump the range and options available for HAM radios.

Although it is not legal to operate a ham radio outside of amateur frequencies, there are some HAM radios which can be modified to transmit on GMRS and FRS frequencies.

Now looking at GMRS vs CB, it's pretty obvious to me. Go to Costco and pick up a set of GMRS radios to talk with your buddies. Better range, no install and will work for a week if you bring along an extra set of batteries.

Pete
 

Martinjmpr

Wiffleball Batter
GMRS radios are useful, small and cheap. However, in my experience, never achieve their posted range. I keep a set in my truck for use with spotters or if someone wants to wander off from camp. Great for keeping in touch with family members at Disneyland too :)

However, here in Canada the rules for GMRS are different than the USA. Only handhelds are allowed - no mobile installs, no repeaters, no base stations and other maximum power restrictions. I think it's 2 or 3 watts max on GMRS frequencies. As a result, they will never trump the range and options available for HAM radios.

Pete are you possibly confusing FRS and GMRS? I'm familiar with the limitations of FRS, in the US at least, FRS is restricted to 500mw and handheld only, no external antennae or base stations. GMRS uses some of the same frequencies but can be mobile, separate antenna, and max power is either 45w or 50w.

Many FRS radios are sold that operate on both the FRS and some of the GMRS frequencies, which is technically illegal unless you have a GMRS license (not that I've ever heard of the FCC going after anyone so operating.) But that doesn't mean they are "GMRS radios" at least I wouldn't classify them as such. I would still consider them to be FRS radios based on their low power output.

But GMRS at least potentially has the same capabilities as the 440mhz HAM band, to include the ability to use repeaters (yes, there are GMRS repeaters, at least in the US.)

If you read up a bit on GMRS, you can see that when the FCC set it up, they intended GMRS to be for small businesses (big businesses have their own dedicated portions of the radio spectrum) or families to communicate about business or personal matters. Obviously, this was BCP - Before Cellular Phones - because nowadays virtually all of these types of communications are conducted via cell phone. To my mind, this means that the GMRS band is under-used (though I don't know if that is actually true or not.)

Maybe we should start a "movement" to label GMRS as the "Expo Band." Require a license but no testing, 50w max power, repeaters allowed. Would be great for off-road travel in remote areas not served by cell phones and easier to get licensed than to go through the HAM steps.
 
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mountainpete

Spamicus Eliminatus
Martin - not necessarily a confusion, but rather trying to illustrate how many specifics of GMRS are unique to the USA. Other countries like Canada, Mexico and Europe have different rules around the use of the frequencies and service. As an example, in Canada there are no GMRS licenses since, I think, about 2003. There are also certain frequencies that are publicly used on GMRS in the USA which are illegal in Canada and actually used for emergency services in Europe.

Important things to note if you invest in GMRS equipment in the USA and one of the big reasons why HAM is a better option (same rules worldwide).

Pete
 

xtatik

Explorer
But GMRS at least potentially has the same capabilities as the 440mhz HAM band, to include the ability to use repeaters (yes, there are GMRS repeaters, at least in the US.).
Potentially, but not likely. The numbers of GMRS repeaters don't remotely come close by comparison. Adding to that, most of the repeater placements are intended to serve metro areas and aren't placed to optimize communications into remote areas. Even amateur repeater listings are difficult to fully rely upon as repeaters are constantly being moved, having their frequencies changed or just fall out of service due to lack of maintenance...especially the more remote repeaters. Each winter, a good number of repeaters bite the dust due to mountain-top wind and ice conditions. Most don't come back online until the roads clear and they can be accessed. I can't imagine GMRS repeaters are supported better than the club-funded and supported amateur repeaters.

Maybe we should start a "movement" to label GMRS as the "Expo Band." Require a license but no testing, 50w max power, repeaters allowed. Would be great for off-road travel in remote areas not served by cell phones and easier to get licensed than to go through the HAM steps.
It's not likely that GMRS would support an "Expo Band". It might serve as a "4wheeler" band where local truck to truck communications are all that is needed. But, given that "Expo" or an expedition can mean travel into you local mountains or a more serious venture into BFE, I don't think a simple line-of-sight FM signal is going to cut it.
 

bugnout

Adventurer
Not much difference in the performance or rules between GMRS and 2M. But the HAM community has not gotten behind GMRS.

There are really two barriers to GMRS becoming popular:
1. $75 license every 5 years for individuals and families. FCC is considering dropping this fee for all but repeater operators.
2. You don't need to take a test to use it. Lets face it, if you needed to be a HAM to use the band, the HAM community would consider this one of their frequencies, you'd see lots of support and repeaters going up.
 

hochung

Adventurer
Many FRS radios are sold that operate on both the FRS and some of the GMRS frequencies, which is technically illegal unless you have a GMRS license (not that I've ever heard of the FCC going after anyone so operating.) But that doesn't mean they are "GMRS radios" at least I wouldn't classify them as such. I would still consider them to be FRS radios based on their low power output.

But GMRS at least potentially has the same capabilities as the 440mhz HAM band, to include the ability to use repeaters (yes, there are GMRS repeaters, at least in the US.)

If you read up a bit on GMRS, you can see that when the FCC set it up, they intended GMRS to be for small businesses (big businesses have their own dedicated portions of the radio spectrum) or families to communicate about business or personal matters. Obviously, this was BCP - Before Cellular Phones - because nowadays virtually all of these types of communications are conducted via cell phone. To my mind, this means that the GMRS band is under-used (though I don't know if that is actually true or not.)

Maybe we should start a "movement" to label GMRS as the "Expo Band." Require a license but no testing, 50w max power, repeaters allowed. Would be great for off-road travel in remote areas not served by cell phones and easier to get licensed than to go through the HAM steps.

Martin, the time you took to research on GMRS, you could have studied for the HAM exam and passed it. It's not too late. Take the test.
 

FurthurOnTheFly

Glamping Society
Martin, the time you took to research on GMRS, you could have studied for the HAM exam and passed it. It's not too late. Take the test.

RAmen to that!

Martin, let me say that I am not a technical person at all. Math class? Please. Ohms, volts? No idea. I studied for one week using the online HAM testing resource and got 100% on my exam. They were trying to get me to take the General while I was there, but after talking with a lady who worked as an engineer and was complaining about how hard that test was I said no thanks.

Now I get in my rig, turn on my radio and say 'can you hear me now?'....usually I get a crisp, crystal clear response sometimes from 40+ miles away. :ylsmoke: Its not my hobby. There is one local radio net we enjoy listening to in this house if we happen to remember when its on. Thats it. I don't spend hours on end trying to talk to the moon. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I think people have this picture of a HAM Operator sitting in his shack at home with a bunch of radios trying to signal Japan for hours on end....not everyone is like that.

There are just as many of us in this generation (and by that I mean non-WW2) who use it simply as a tool as there are who use it as a hobby. Unfortunately what I see is a dying artform because people are turned off by a little test you have to take ONCE and is very easy to pass. My point is....if I can do it....YOU can do it!!
 

bugnout

Adventurer
A GMRS license allows anyone in your family to operate under the umbrella of your license. For that alone its a valuable tool for expo use.

I believe the Amateur radio rules don't allow anyone but a licensed HAM to operate an amateur band radio. Handing the mic to the wife or sending the kids out with a portable are not technically legal.
 

matt s

Explorer
The Tech test is painfully easy. Really as mentioned above you can study a few days (I think I spent an hour a night for 3-4 days) and ace it. No need for a new hobby. There are plenty of plug and play 2m or dual band radios available. I even picked mine up used at a ham swap meet and it had all the local repeaters programed and ready to go. I only use my ham for normal coms when out and about, and occasionally monitor local fire/ems during snow storms etc. It's nice to know what roads to avoid. I too don't have time for another hobby.

For my family I have FRS radios that we use around camp if needed, not really needed but the kids think they are fun. My ham radio can receive FRS so we monitor those frequencies on the road as well.
 

xtatik

Explorer
Handing the mic to the wife or sending the kids out with a portable are not technically legal.
You can hand the mic to the wife as long as you (a licensed amateur) are present. Sending it off with the kids is not allowed. GMRS would work well for many aspects as an accessory form of communication, such as the scenario you mention with kids or unlicensed adults taking a hike, etc. But, it would fall woefully short as a primary means of communication in remote areas.
 

Michael

Adventurer
A couple of points regarding GMRS: GMRS radios are mostly used by commercial outfits and small businesses (e.g., plumbing companies, installers, etc). Because of this, it stands to reason that GMRS repeaters are typically located close to urban areas. If you use a mobile GMRS radio on the trail, there would pretty much be nobody to talk to unless you had a companion vehicle along also set up for GMRS. If your transmission reached somebody with a hand-held FRS/GMRS unit, that person probably couldn't talk back unless you were very close by (1 or 2 miles on a good day) due to the limit on antenna size set by the FCC and the 1/2 watt power limit set by manufacturers. A very important point in using GMRS on the remote trails is that you'd be missing out on the safety feature of using ham 2m (VHF) or 70cm (UHF) communications to contact help in an emergency. In Anza Borrego in SOCAL for instance, some repeaters are linked to other repeaters so you can reach most of SOCAL and most of Arizona with only a 5W VHF hand held radio. Most remote areas have at least some repeater coverage.

A couple of points regarding the technician license test: There are quite a few organizations offering a free one-day class followed immediately by the technician license test. About 80% or better of the people who take the class pass the test on their first try. If you go to a website such as HamExam and study even a little bit before the class, your odds of passing approach 100%. There are only 350 questions in the test bank for the technician exam and all the questions with correct answers are available to study in advance. From the 350 questions in the bank, 35 will be selected for the test and you only have to get 26 of those right to pass! Remember, for a multiple choice test you don't have to know the right answer, you just have to recognize it when you see it :)

Once you've enjoyed clear, reliable, long distance communications using amateur radio (ham) on the trails it is hard to imagine using anything else!
 
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gary in ohio

Explorer
For US-based travel only (and I say this because I don't know about the availability of GMRS outside the US) wouldn't GMRS be a viable alternative to CB and HAM for travel/off road use?
GMRS is valid in the US and canada only.

4. Repeaters. Right now 2m and 440 are popular because there are so many repeaters out there, but (at least from what I've read) GMRS repeaters are available.
Do keep in mind there a much smaller pool of repeaters to choose from and unlike ham radio you need to ask permission and receive approval to use it. Many require a fee to use the repeater.

5. Ability to communicate with popular FRS radios. If I understand correctly, GMRS overlaps FRS so that while GMRS can communicate on all FRS channels, FRS radios can only communicate on SOME GMRS channels.
There are only 7 shared frequencies. You cant talk on ALL FRS channels.



Thoughts?

GMRS is an option if you have a small group of people you wheel with all the time. The issue you often run into for people outside your groups is freqeuncy and PL tones.
MOST GMRS radio dont allow you to change them on the fly. You have a freq with a tone. If everyone has the same tone your in great shape if not you cant hear the other station. Ham have frequency and PL tone changeable at the radio, GMRS does not.
 

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