Reality check for diesel-systemed truck camper

[astn]

I need a reality check from people with experience or knowledge with regard to what is and isn't possible with a truck camper + truck. I am most concerned with "systems" particularly using diesel in lieu of propane. While I understand how this is done with the "big boy" motorhomes/expo vehicles, and how this is scaled into smaller vehicles (such as SMBs and trucks like the EarthRoamer) I foresee some significant implementation problems with a truck camper that is -not- permanently mounted to the truck.

In brief: My current "dream" would be to rehab a '00-'02 non-slide out (smaller) truck camper of a reputable brand (Bigfoot, Northern Lite, etc) to put on a '06-'07 1 ton (diesel) truck. While doing this, I would like to replace the propane systems for either diesel-fired or electric systems. Diesel Webasto/Wallas stove, Webasto hydronic heater (with blower or two) as well as hot water system, diesel genny, and electric fridge(/freezer?). I also have some thoughts regard solar and electricity, and a cassette toilet (or composting/incinerating, but unlikely) but that is less a technical challenge then a monetary one.

My problem/concern is: in a SMB, this is relatively straightforward, as the "camper" and diesel engine/fuel tank are always together. On a truck camper, they separate, causing a number of questions and conflicts, such as (a) Should the Webasto hydronic heater be placed on the truck or in the camper? On the truck it can be tied into coolant and used to preheat the motor (very useful and preferable for me) as well as use excess motor heat to make hot water or heat the camper. However, how do you route the water elements to the camper (quick-connect hydraulic couplings spring to mind?) (b) Some of the elements of the system need diesel fuel (e.g. stove, generator) so how do you connect/disconnect from the vehicle fuel tank safely and simply? I think it's obvious that it would be easiest to self-contain the camper to include a diesel tank and treat them as separate units, but that wastes the engine's potential heat as well as drives up costs (if I were to put a Webasto on the truck as well). But what I'm hoping for may not be feasible (either technically or economically or both).

Purpose: This vehicle will be built over the next 6 mos-year and used for regular two week excursions, frequently in cold weather (snowboarding trips). It will probably be regularly moved while on trips (daily) and primarily for dry camping/boondocking. When we're not camping, it needs to "haul stuff" and be used regularly as a primary vehicle (without camper).

Sorry about the length of the post, but I wanted to make sure there was enough information for people to comment. Thanks.

Austin

[Pest]

I can't really answer your questions, but I would suggest trying to contact Marc at XPCamper. The unit he designed and builds had diesel appliances and is removable. He's a really awesome and helpful guy.

[astn]

...contact Marc at XPCamper. The unit he designed and builds had diesel appliances and is removable.

Thanks for the reply. I know about the XPCamper (and was looking at it online when it was first introduced) but decided a pop-up wasn't the way to go for me. I'm hoping some other people might have some thoughts before I get it touch with him. I'm not sure how I'd feel asking for advice on an existing product to quasi-replicate it (on a hardside, but still). I might have to get over it though. Thanks again.

[jronwood]

I am "dieseling" up a camping rig on a 2002 F-350 (hybirized to a 450) 4door dually 4x4 w/ a 7.3. This will be a pull behind, but my "systems" are focusing on one fuel, diesel due to all the current issues with ethynol. I am planning to make my own low RPM diesel generator out of a single cylinder Yanmar w/ a 100 amp alternator. This will suppliment my solar and truck charging ability. Low RPM so it is quiet, and effiecent.Looking for ideas as well. My trialer is in the expedition trailers forum under "Ambulance body trailer".

One other idea is to find a dually ambulance (perhaps 4x4) and use it as is. I just found a 7.3 (non turbo, read: super effiecent but no power house, and last forever!!) in a 92' Ford van ambulance with 70K. A friend picked it up for $3500, thing was immacculate.


Jronwood

[Photomike]

I read this the other day and was going to answer then decided to leave it for a while. Well I still have the same question that I had the other day...Why? I am not saying not to do it, just why. I run propane and have to say that I like it. All the appliances run off of one tank, no fuss, no mess. A single tank lasts me for most of the summer or several long trips in the winter. The furnace is very warm (if anything I would like to add a vented cat heater for added warmth but that would require propane).

Would using diesel save money/space/cost or add to the efficiency? If you were going to be on the road for a long time I would say the single fuel would be a good thing, but....

Also, if you were building from scratch it would be one thing, but to pull out all the appliances to install new are you going to have that much better of a system after?

I would like to know more on the diesel and why you are switching?

As for the toilet and cold weather, a BIG YES for the cassette. Much easier to empty in -20

[haven]

Photomike has a point. The propane stove, water heater and forced air heater found in RVs work pretty well. In North America, propane is inexpensive and found just about anywhere RVs might go. A propane line is easy to plumb to add an extension hose for a cooktop you can use outside the camper. A propane stove is faster to heat up and easier to modulate the heat than a diesel cooktop. And a propane appliance repair service is easy to find.

Propane has disadvantages, too. First, if you're traveling outside North America, each country seems to have a different standard tank fitting, so a long trip becomes a continuous quest to refill your tank. Second, propane presents a greater fire hazard than diesel does. Propane is heavier than air, so if you have a small leak the propane can pool in a vent under the camper or at a low spot inside, waiting to be ignited. Explosions don't happen often, but do occur occasionally. This is why many boats keep their propane applances in a separate locker with a vent to the outside air. Third, if a propane stove isn't vented to the outside, water vapor condenses inside when you use the stove. Not a problem if you keep the camper well ventilated, but a nuisance when it's cold outside. Fourth, a propane tank takes up space that can be used for storage.

A quick disconnect fitting can be added to a fuel line running diesel from the vehicle's fuel tank to applances in the camper.

[OutbacKamper]

Austin;
I will put in my .02 on some of your questions. I am certainly no expert, but I do have experience with some of the issues you have raised.

The retail cost of new diesel RV appliances makes me question the wisdom of putting many thousands of dollars worth of appliances into a 10 year old truck camper. As to the "reputable brand (Bigfoot, Northern Lite, etc)" campers, I would caution you that the build quality and design of these highly rated campers is really not that impressive. I have owned a Northern Lite and have seen the Bigfoot campers under construction at the old factory in Armstrong, BC. The 2 piece fiberglass shell is certainly better than the typical aluminum siding, but every penetration (window, vent, screw, wire, crack, etc) is a potential leak point and there is a lot of wood inside that thin fiberglass shell. I am not saying don't buy a NL or BF camper, just questioning if it is worth spending thousands upgrading a camper that you may want to get rid of in a few years.

You mentioned a diesel "genny"...you will find that small, light and quiet are all pretty much impossible with a diesel generator. I have not found one yet that is practical for a truck and camper application. I think the smallest ones are about 2.5kw and 200lbs. If you find one that meets your needs, please let me know, I would like one myself.

"(a) Should the Webasto hydronic heater be placed on the truck or in the camper? " My advise is place the hydronic heater under the hood of the truck (if you need one) and place a separate air heater (Webasto Air Top, or Espar Airtronic) in the camper. I have hooked up my under hood Espar hydronic heater using quick disconnects to a 4wheel camper with mixed results. The fan coil unit mounted in the camper worked well in mild weather, but the colder it got the less heat was available. The length of coolant hose required to connect the 2 systems is difficult to insulate well enough and the quick disconnects restrict the coolant flow. In other words it is not a very efficient set up. I see no advantage to having a coolant heater in the camper.

"b) Some of the elements of the system need diesel fuel (e.g. stove, generator) so how do you connect/disconnect from the vehicle fuel tank safely and simply?" In my opinion the only safe and practical way is to have a separate diesel fuel tank attached to the camper. This gives the added benefit of being able to use the camper appliances without the truck.

Re buying diesel appliances from XP Camper: I know Marc at XP quite well, and I am sure he would sell you any Webasto appliances you need. However he is working 18 hours a day 7 days a week building campers at the moment, so he will not have much time to offer advice.

My suggestion FWIW is buy the camper you like and use it (with the stock propane appliances). Then take all the money you save by not installing diesel appliances and spend it on travel (fuel, extra time off work, etc). Not many people laying on their deathbed have been heard to say " I wish I had installed diesel appliances in my camper", but I'm sure many have said "I wish I spent less time working and more time travelling with my family/friends".
Cheers
Mark

[astn]

Wow, that's a lot of information all at once. Thank you all for responding--you've given me a lot to think about and created a lot of new questions. I'm going to try to group comments to respond below:

Why?

Regarding propane v. diesel. I have a bias against propane, based on several past experiences and the (perhaps overstated) dangers. However, having been in a propane flash fire during an ARFF simulator 'malfunction' (fortunately in full turnout gear) I am hesitant about "living with it." I feel much more comfortable with diesel, and the added bonus of being "single-fuel" with nearly universal availability is a selling point (even with the added expense of appliances and the difference in costs between fuels). While I certainly don't think propane is unsafe, if I can use something else I'll probably make that choice.

Propane has disadvantages, too. First, if you're traveling outside North America, each country seems to have a different standard tank fitting, so a long trip becomes a continuous quest to refill your tank. Second, propane presents a greater fire hazard than diesel does. Propane is heavier than air, so if you have a small leak the propane can pool in a vent under the camper or at a low spot inside, waiting to be ignited. Explosions don't happen often, but do occur occasionally. This is why many boats keep their propane applances in a separate locker with a vent to the outside air. Third, if a propane stove isn't vented to the outside, water vapor condenses inside when you use the stove. Not a problem if you keep the camper well ventilated, but a nuisance when it's cold outside. Fourth, a propane tank takes up space that can be used for storage.

My concerns were mainly about the fire risks of a heavier then air flammable vapor, but I'll add the other three reasons to the list of why I'd prefer diesel. Ultimately though, I have to admit simple bias. If what I'd like is impossible or seriously impractical and I have to "suck it up" and deal with propane, I will, but I'm hoping (and still feel) as if going all diesel is a solid alternative (albeit with a high barrier of entry).

You mentioned a diesel "genny"...you will find that small, light and quiet are all pretty much impossible with a diesel generator. I have not found one yet that is practical for a truck and camper application. I think the smallest ones are about 2.5kw and 200lbs. If you find one that meets your needs, please let me know, I would like one myself.

Yeah, a sure downside. I haven't seen one smaller then that myself. My brother drives a truck for a living, and when he had his bunk added he included a 2.5kw gen in proper enclosure. I didn't find it that loud (though not as quiet as some of the smaller gasoline models) but rather subdued. The relevant question might be: how much space did his "hushbox" enclosure cost and what did it weigh? I shouldn't scoff at 200# either, because I realize it adds up.

"(a) Should the Webasto hydronic heater be placed on the truck or in the camper? " My advise is place the hydronic heater under the hood of the truck (if you need one) and place a separate air heater (Webasto Air Top, or Espar Airtronic) in the camper. I have hooked up my under hood Espar hydronic heater using quick disconnects to a 4wheel camper with mixed results. The fan coil unit mounted in the camper worked well in mild weather, but the colder it got the less heat was available. The length of coolant hose required to connect the 2 systems is difficult to insulate well enough and the quick disconnects restrict the coolant flow. In other words it is not a very efficient set up. I see no advantage to having a coolant heater in the camper.

Makes sense, though I clearly don't understand the Webasto system as well as I'd thought. My impression was a hydronic heater in a camper served two purposes: (a) Since you're using it to heat the camper, you can preheat your diesel (good for the truck.) (b) Since it's tied into your coolant, you can use the truck heat to "get started" in the camper (good for the camper). Therefore, you get "free" hot showers after you've driven somewhere, everything is already preheated, etc. By breaking down the system, don't you lose that efficiency? (Or was it overstated/not applicable anyway?) The Air Top/Airtronic units provide heat only, rather then hot water as well? How would you then handle a hot water system?

…the only safe and practical way is to have a separate diesel fuel tank attached to the camper. This gives the added benefit of being able to use the camper appliances without the truck.

I'd thought of that straightaway, but the Webasto hydronic system made it a bit more confusing to me. I'm not sure how often I would use the camper dismounted honestly, but it seems reasonable to try to retain the ability. How would you suggest transferring diesel from your main tank to your "day tank" (to use the boating parlance)? Just an external pump and run a hose from one filler cap to another? Any advantage in plumbing them together?

Also, if you were building from scratch it would be one thing, but to pull out all the appliances to install new are you going to have that much better of a system after?

I've considered having a camper scratch-built, but worried about the cost. However, with some of the feedback I'm getting (both from here and my wife) plus some of the research I've been doing (in trying to find a suitable used camper) I'm not sure how much I might be saving. Rather then open a bunch of new issues, I'll see where these questions/answers lead me and then reevaluate.

Thanks again for everyone's time and answers. Hopefully I'll hear from y'all soon.

[Photomike]

Okay to throw something else into the mix, why not look at a motor home and do the conversions from there? You mention snowboarding trips, this could be done with a standard motor home (class A, B or C) over a 4x4 if you are staying on the main roads or look for a 4x4 motor home and modify. This way you have less hassles to worry about in the distance from engine/disconnect area.

I am on the other side of the propane/diesel issue. I have worked with propane in residential/commercial furnaces, Barbeques and in campers and find it easy to work with. Biggest thing I dislike on diesel is the smell (this is from experience with a VW diesel that my Dad had years ago so may not apply to today's engines and appliances).

[astn]

Okay to throw something else into the mix, why not look at a motor home and do the conversions from there? You mention snowboarding trips, this could be done with a standard motor home (class A, B or C) over a 4x4 if you are staying on the main roads or look for a 4x4 motor home and modify. This way you have less hassles to worry about in the distance from engine/disconnect area.

Completely agree. In fact, doing a Sportsmobile-type conversion on a 4x4 E350 would be my first choice if not for two problems: (a) Either your bathroom sucks or you sacrifice a lot of space to it in a van; (b) This truck will be my wife and my only vehicle. We live in the city, and the length is already going to be a challenge, but neither of us use a vehicle enough to justify having two different ones, which is what brought me back to a truck camper (after disregarding the idea entirely several years ago).

A Fuso 4x4 with a flatbed and demountable camper would probably be even better because it would be (potentially) shorter, but I don't even want to broach the idea of daily driving a (quasi-)MDT with the wife.