4 season camper project

[Gentleman]

Question about insulation

I am building a camper housing unit (early planning stage). I am bit of a newbie.

What kind of a insulation do I need? Or what kind of insulation have you used in similar conditions?

My first guess would be 50mm (2 inch) thick:

http://www.isover.fi/tuotteet/rakennuseristeet/kevyet-rakennuseristeet/2513/isover-kl-37 finnish page - info pdf link in english.

heat conductivity: 0,037 W/mK

My planned housing unit would have perhaps 20 M3 of heated space (rough guess). Sleeping space is on top so that helps. There will be some heat leakage from tiny gaps as there will be non-fixed joints.

Temperature conditions:
Cold is my enemy. I would say -10 to -15 C would be common in winter times. -22 would be rare. -30 C would be once in seven years and -35 would be ones in twentyfive years.

Survival is not the issue. I will have sleeping bag and clothing to keep me going with just a tent. I would like to have reasonably comfortable temperature in my housing unit say 11 to 14 C (? what would be realistic with reasonable heating in -15 C?).

Windows and such will be the biggest cold spots. I plan to build option to replace such things with equipment designed for winter conditions (insulation top priority)

Weight is an issue so I aim for moderate price and light weight.

How would you grade my first proposal to isolation? (acceptable; good; bad - consider XX instead)
What have you used when you have build?
Any pointers?
Am I overkilling with insulation?
Are my expectations unrealistic?
What solutions people use for windows in cold conditions? (should I look for something specific?)

With kind regards and hoping to hear from you,
Janne

PS I am in so early stages that I am reluctant to post my drafts yet since there are so many things that I will redraw as I ponder the basic questions. Perhaps once I am reasonably confident in my design.

I would specially like to hear experiences on no water toilet like http://www.natureshead.net/
and
http://motorhome.webasto.co.uk/cooking/diesel-cooker-x100.html (with intention to make do without gas in my camper. this would require aggregate or fuel-cell to generate electricity for fridge etc. - any experience on such ? )

PPS thank you Iain for your thread about your project!

 

[chris_the_wrench]

Janne,

I also am in the middle of planing a camper that I will be using frequently in cold weather. Here is a thread I started a few months back, and got some good feedback from our fellow Expo'ers.

-Chris

 

[Gentleman]

Thank you for the link. good info ther!

my project:
1) Frame of the box. welding it myself is not an option. (My sister has a farm but firework is not allowed within facility -- no facility as we speak). Only option I can see is to order one made to my specifications. This would mean better quality and more expenses.

2) Insulation. I found out few leads on compound insulation so I guess that will be the road to go. atleast now I have contact & rough price/performance info.

Power source: wondering should I have Gas installed or go for Disel cooking plat & heating and fuel cell / agrigate to power electricity.

gas -- extra space & weight
-- one more component

Disel -- some electricity needed that could be gotten away with gas.
-- smell?
-- harder to tune in for heating ??
-- slower

Which way to go? my options as I see them:

My current car is Dacia logan MVC.
1) go with current one. take tent aboard on travels and use it / sleep within the car on platform made for it.
++ little extra cost / effort, other paths still open
2) go with dacia and upgrade with roof tent & shover option.
-- this combination will loose some of the parking stealth. better storage volume for car (++), shover (++)
3) go for 3,5t truck & custom made (self made?) box for it
4) go for max 7,5 ton truck. as 3) + I need to upgrade my divers license.

As the resolving & designing 3) and 4) will take time I will go with 1) and do lowcost upgrades where I find them possible.

Big question mark:

regarding the frame of the box.
Assuming max weight of 1.5 ton for box.
Assuming that there is three Iron/steal beams across the bead of the truck to carry the total 1.5 ton load.
how strudy must the beams be?

if total weight is 1,5 ton that is 500kg load / beam = 250kg load per one end of a beam (stable)

Now the bead is two I beams so max leverage for the 250kg load is 0.7m

Considering the momentum of the box lets assume max load of 350kg per end of a beam. (no extream feats expected from chasis.

How to resolve what is sufficient material thickness / configuration for this type of expected force? or what would you reccomend for material in lowes level of the frame?

 

[Iain_U1250]

I listed all the weights on my camper project thread a while ago, and it is heavy - but then it needs to be if you intend on carrying more than 1.5ton of fuel water and stuff. In regards the camper frame - the most important thing is the mounting, the static weight is not the problem, it is the loads put onto the camper frame from the chassis flex.

The cross members on my OEM mog frame are substantial, but probably overkill since the bed frame comes off a U1750 with a 6 ton capacity

 

[charlieaarons]

I believe your conductivity is off by a factor of 10. My Mog is
0.44 w/sq m-deg K with 55mm foam.

Charlie

 

[Gentleman]

I believe your conductivity is off by a factor of 10. My Mog is
0.44 w/sq m-deg K with 55mm foam.

Charlie

Hello charlie!

As said .. limited experience on the subject..
I imagine the value "heat conductivity: 0,037 W/mK" is the base value (1000mm = 1m)
To my limited understanding:
0,037 W/mK / 0,055m (thickness) >> 0.67 w/sq m-deg K

which means that foam would be a lot better with 0.44 w/sq m-deg K for same 55mm


Using layered foam sheets as insulation / building elements seems to be the way to go.
1. Layered product is easier to use in building than using separate wall,insulation,innerwall.
2. layered foam has structural strength so building is bit easier
3. foam dose not soak up water.

There are many different layered products.. figuring out what exactly to use can be figured out at later date.

Janne

 

[Gentleman]

I listed all the weights on my camper project thread a while ago, and it is heavy - but then it needs to be if you intend on carrying more than 1.5ton of fuel water and stuff. In regards the camper frame - the most important thing is the mounting, the static weight is not the problem, it is the loads put onto the camper frame from the chassis flex.

The cross members on my OEM mog frame are substantial, but probably overkill since the bed frame comes off a U1750 with a 6 ton capacity

Hello Iain!

I guess you are referring to "Unimog Hippo" post. Yes, wonderful post, thank you for the detailed info. It quite well underlines the fact that _things add up_ as you pointed out.

Thank you for pointing out the flexing and mounting!! that is definitely something that has to be figured out. I guess some form of 3 point mounting. ( [only?] alternative would be just about fixed mounting and that would restrict vehicle to roads)

Janne

http://www.epicycles.com/Truck Blog/2010-01-01/2010-01-01.htm is very informative project also. (also this project has a lot less steal in the wall & ceiling than others I have seen in the web)

 

[Iain_U1250]

Hi Janne, I think if you fixed mounted it, even a few speed bumps would put lots of stress on the camper box, I'm surprised how flexible the chassis is on my Mog, even jacking it up in the workshop makes it twist a bit. Mine has a 4 point mounting system - I can put up photos if you want.

 

[charlieaarons]

Hello charlie!

As said .. limited experience on the subject..
I imagine the value "heat conductivity: 0,037 W/mK" is the base value (1000mm = 1m)
To my limited understanding:
0,037 W/mK / 0,055m (thickness) >> 0.67 w/sq m-deg K

which means that foam would be a lot better with 0.44 w/sq m-deg K for same 55mm


Using layered foam sheets as insulation / building elements seems to be the way to go.
1. Layered product is easier to use in building than using separate wall,insulation,innerwall.
2. layered foam has structural strength so building is bit easier
3. foam dose not soak up water.

There are many different layered products.. figuring out what exactly to use can be figured out at later date.

Janne

The dimensional part of the formula is square meter area. Thickness is already taken into account in meausring the heat transfer coefficient.
0.037 W/msq-deg K is an impossibly low coefficient of heat transfer, unless the walls are 6-700mm thick!!!!
0.67 is more realistic, should correspond to 35-40mm foam. 55mm should be about 0.44 (mine is).

Charlie

 

[Gentleman]

Hi Janne, I think if you fixed mounted it, even a few speed bumps would put lots of stress on the camper box, I'm surprised how flexible the chassis is on my Mog, even jacking it up in the workshop makes it twist a bit. Mine has a 4 point mounting system - I can put up photos if you want.

Photos would be great if you would take the effort Iain! No rush, I (hopefully) will be traveling a bit in europe during next 2 months.

With kind regards,
Janne

 

[Korpisoturi]

Hello Janne,

I have a similar project going on in southern Finland. I'll try to get the cabin started this summer and you are welcome to have a look if you want.

 

[ianc]

Have you seen this: http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/equipment/choosevan.htm

The guy covers the insulation calculations etc and gives pointers to further reading.

A couple of other observations.
1) Would a sandwich construction not be better instead of a steel frame such as this: http://www.ormocar.de/en/sandwichplatten/
No cold bridges and lighter.

2) I'd stayaway from a diesel cooker particularly if your going to be operating on cold tempratures or high altitude. They're also expensive and a pain in the bum to use. Gas just works.

3) Depending on the fridge you're intending to use - I'm not sure a fuel cell would be up to running it. Depending on your driving/stoppnig patterns then a compressor fridge + good alternator + ability to charge from 220v when available might be a better bet.

 

[Gentleman]

Hello everyone,

small update.

I have quite serious issues with my back that have taken priority.

I have been:
1) working on different ways make the living "box" work. (I am working with assumption that (outside) measurements of 200cm(W) * 400cm(L) * 210cm(H) would not bee too far off the mark. Length might be the upper limit ?.
2) worked out a list of my needs (ranked: basic requirement; desireable and bonus).

3) I do not have welding option (or only minor work if I can arrange anything) so I will have to order the basic metal frame (&sub-frame) from some company

I think I will test some things out by gearing my stationwagon up a bit to accomodate me on summer trips.

Fridge & Freaser will play a major role. Key issue for me will be the insulation/efficiency (so that the strain on power will be less). I will aim for self sufficiency so charging from outside source is something I do not wish to hunt for. I think I would prefer coffin type of fridge & freezer (where lid opens up) since to my understanding that keeps the cold air in better.

Washing: Dose anyone have experience of Ion washingmashines that can also work without water?
(sorry the page is in Finnish http://www.verkkokauppa.com/fi/product/1876/ckgcq/Sanyo-Air-Wash-TD62-L703HC )
(eng youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_CPcYH7CfM)
I do not think that waterless wash can remove heavy stais - I just wonder what it will do to a ahem.. well worn t-shirt etc.. and how the clothes will fare if waterless wash is used for extended periods?

How do people handle MOT/yearly inspection of car <> extended periods of travel. This could mean that you can't have the car inspected before planned trip and it will expire while you are traveling? Just drive and hope nobody will check it?

Thank you for the links Ian - lot better stuff there than in the shop I found here! Yes I am planning to use sandwich type of materials as much as I can. I think sub frame will have to be quite heavy steel and I think I will want to use (smaller)steel atleast in each corner (to increase stability)

Remember to enjoy the summer!

With kind regards, Janne

 

[rblackwell]

Yearly inspection/MOT - one of the advantages of living in the US is that it is possible to register a vehicle at an address that does not require yearly inspections.

In any case most US states/regions that do require inspection allow for "inspection on return" and will renew plates/tabs/registration in absentia.

I heard from Elizabeth that Australia (forgotten which state) requires "inspection by suitably qualified mechanic" - you can just imagine what a hassle the phrase "suitably qualified" would turn into.

We spent a year in South America and NO-ONE ever looked at the registration tabs (in the US each year you put a tab about 1-2" square on the corner of a license plate) and we showed the vehicle Title document whenever asked for documents - not the registration. So there was never an expiry date on any documents.

For our next trip we have registered our truck in South Dakota - never need to even go there, all done by mail and no inspection.

Interested to hear about the practices in other countries.

 

[Gentleman]

Small steps on both fronts:

"Dacia" will get a portable fridge/freezer. Plan is to re-use this in "proper camper".
http://www.nationalluna.com/weekender50.htm is my current front runner. with £ 950.
+ very good electricity options.
+ batery guard etc as standard.
? I do not know how easy it is to install into a station wagon. (wiring etc)
http://www.engelaustralia.com.au/cgi-bin/product.cgi?item_id=mt45fp&item_string= is the alternative
-- battery guard is optional extra (=more clutter)
-- single temperature zone
+ reliability

Link to article I found extremely helpful http://www.expeditionportal.com/res...rland-journal-portable-12v-fridge-review.html
Any comments or other (better?) canditates?

With both canditates I will need a dual battery setup to my dacia. I fear I will need solar panel or similar alternative electricity source. While I know that dual battery wiring is relatively easy, I do not yet know how it is done or what is the best way to do it. (links to good introduction or guides for newbie please?). One option is to hand the job over to a garage -- I just rather would learn to do it myself. I do not know if that would be digging a hole for myself with MOT.

"Proper camper"
I think my best options are:
* unimog U1300L/37 w. Fast axel
* unimog U1300L/37 w. standard axel
* unimog U1550L/37 w. either heavy axel option. These are the cars I will measure other possible cars to.

(?) is campervan weight measured (total max weight - when registering) with water storage filled up? I guess they are because (as with fuel) car MUST be able to handle the load. .. this would indicate that the waste water tank would be filled too (??). I guess I will have to get a membership in our national motoring association to gain the access to legal help. U1550L/37 would be the safe bet due to bigger payload.. hmm..

If I were to forget the offroad capabilities.. I guess I would be looking at fuel efficiency as thing to gain. Would there be major savings ? ..I mean .. how much better the MPG or L/100KM figures could be on strictly "road truck" of the same payload capability compared to unimog traveling on the same road. Traveling at economical / leisure pace.


Unimog 1550: 16.8–23.5 l/100 km 10–14 mpg ( no solid source for reference - is this in the ballpark? )
Fuel Economy U1300: 17.5l - 19l / 100 km 12.5 - 14 mpg (from: http://www.unimogcentre.com/unimog435specs.html )

Janne