Espar Airtronic and Webasto Air Top

[dzzz]

Don, I just remembered that YOU have a U500. Does it have the Webasto aux heater?

Yeah, it has the Webasto Thermo 90 S coolant heater. That's for engine pre heat, which of course also provides cab heat. These are becoming pretty standard in better diesel vehicles that operate in the cold.

I'm leaning towards an air diesel heater for the camper, however. With the catalytic heater as a backup. I have probably 30 nights now in cool to cold weather and I see no advantage to the complexity of a boiler type diesel heater for my 13' cabin.

At freezing I need about .5kw of heat. The small webasto and espar air heaters are 4-5x that output. Seems about right.

[dzzz]

The entry level Webasto Airtop 2000 is programable, if this is correct:

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/sho...84&postcount=5

[LanduytG]

I guess you might say I'm bias on this subject. But over the years I can say with confidence that the Espar will have less issues that the Webasto. We supply Sportsmobile with all their Espar heaters.

As for a bigger market with RV's than boats, that is not true at all. However Espar is now starting to target RV industry.

For high altitude I would not use the the high altitude pump. I would use the electronic compensator. You will never have to worry about switching to another pump. They work really well and can be used on any newer hydronic or airtronic heater.

The biggest thing people want to do is over size the unit. Like use the Airtronic D4 where a D2 will work fine. This is the issue with Sportsmobile. These heaters work best and are the most trouble free if you can make them run and medium or high setting. When they run on low which they will if the unit is to large, they will soot up and plug the combustion chamber. I have units in for repair all the time that have over 4000-5000 hours on them and have never been apart. Average is around 3000 hours. The secrete is to let them run on higher settings and use a quality fuel.

Now for water versus air heat. In and RV I would opt for water heat any day. If you want zone heating capability water is the way to go. Plus as stated above you can heat the domestic water as well. Cost wise if you were to setup and air system for zone heating it would be about the same cost as water. Running duct work for air heating can be a real pain, unless you have metal ducting already installed on the RV. Most Rv's use plastic duct which is not capable of handling the high temperature from the Espar. With water heat you drill a 1-1/4" hole and pull the hose through. Where it can get costly with water heat is if you use silicon hose, which is all I would use. Silicon hose can be any where from $4-$7 a foot. However duct work that meets the heat requirement will cost that as well.

Greg

[dzzz]

That's great you've had good experience with Espar. Of course there are Webasto installers who feel the same way about their brand. I've given up trying to decide which brand is better quality. I expect the quality is similar, and the right size unit installed and set correctly is the primary determinant of trouble-free operation.

Above sea level, the gold standard is to set combustion by directly measure atmospheric pressure. That appears to be an added option on all Espar units, included with Webasto EVO air heaters, and not available on Webasto hydronic units.

Webasto claims over a million commercial truck installs. If the marine market is bigger there must be a heck of a lot of boats with Espar and Webasto heaters.

[LanduytG]

That's great you've had good experience with Espar. Of course there are Webasto installers who feel the same way about their brand. I've given up trying to decide which brand is better quality. I expect the quality is similar, and the right size unit installed and set correctly is the primary determinant of trouble-free operation.

Above sea level, the gold standard is to set combustion by directly measure atmospheric pressure. That appears to be an added option on all Espar units, included with Webasto EVO air heaters, and not available on Webasto hydronic units.

Webasto claims over a million commercial truck installs. If the marine market is bigger there must be a heck of a lot of boats with Espar and Webasto heaters.

Sorry I really didn't clarify it very well. The boat industry is larger than RV. Of course trucks account for the lions share.

As to quality I have worked on both and sold both. I now only sell Espar. However to be fair I know nothing about the Webasto Evo series. When it comes to marine use I would still say Espar has the larger market share. But I'm not here to knock on Webasto.

If anyone needs help we are available. As you said setup and sizing are paramount. We can heat anything that needs heated.

Greg

[dzzz]

Greg, what's your company?

[LanduytG]

Greg, what's your company?

Don

Here is our web site. We do a little of everything but Espar is 75% of what we do. We have been in business for yourself for 12 years and Espar master distributor of the last 10 years. We are responsible for the Espar Hybrenator heater system. We manufacture the controller for that unit. We also sell the same type of system called Rite-Temp. When it comes to heating with coolant we have done a lot. We deal with air heat as well but you just can't heat everything with air.

We are a one man show so we don't have time to do a lot of web work. For the past weeks until about May we are full throttle with the Espar side of your business.

If you need parts or heaters give us a call.

Greg
http://www.lubricationspecialist.com/

[grizzlyj]

As for a bigger market with RV's than boats, that is not true at all.

Hi

Just to clarify where I was coming from, regardless of who gets bigger sales from which market area, is that diesel powered heating suffers with altitude, and diesel fuelled anything suffers with cold to a greater or lesser extent. They would be happiest at low level, so of course in a boat or truck since there can't be that many truckers sleeping at high altitude so these are its target market, but a camper built for as many conditions as feasible could be a very different case.

My Espar without any altitude compensation totally clogged up in 3 weeks spent at 920m, and its supposed to be fine up to 1000m. It was at the time only used for hot water, so wasn't run for prolonged periods on a low setting. (Do Espar give a system fluid capacity for each model?) So if it won't run correctly within that range I am loathe to spend more money on either method of adjustment for up to 2000m, since whenever I camp above that then my main source of heat may not work well if at all.

Building an all season camper, happy up to a fair altitude, and wanting engine preheat when the engine and diesel supply may struggle after a freezing night, a petrol fired Espar seems a positive choice, with fewer reasons for it to not work at height and when cold. I'm thinking of running hot pipes in the battery tray and along fuel lines sharing their insulation, and using my small genny to run mains voltage heating pads under the fuel tank.

There seems a reasonable concensus that a diesel fired cooker is a top choice for boating but not so ideal in an RV, and I don't see why the same argument doesn't also hold true with heating. Buying electric compensation for diesel at that altitude is a half way step to what a petrol one would give you from the word go surely, so a better choice to my mind for a global camper?

And you may as well buy two so you know you have the spare part when it does go wrong miles from anywhere!

Just my 2p, I'll leave you be now

Jason

[LanduytG]

What is or means of controlling the fuel pump at altitude? We have many units that run high altitude on a daily bases and don't soot up. Thats because the fuel is being controlled very well and they are sized correct and run flat out most the time. As for a diesel fueled anything not running well at high altitude I just don't see it if the system is designed correctly. I'm 54 and have been running diesels most of my life and have not seen all the issues you are talking about on a well designed system. Yes you get less heat as you go up in altitude but so does every other heater. The high altitude compensator has been tested at Pikes Peak, I know the engineer for Espar personally and he told be it ran well up at that altitude. However you did not have near the capacity either.

You say or heater was not run for prolonged periods at low heat, but if it was used only for hot water it most likely never ran long enough at any setting.

As for the diesel stove it would work well too if they had some sort of adjustment. The Walls brand I've did not have such adjustment. So you are not comparing apples to apples between a boat at sea level and and RV at altitude.
In a hydronic system you need a minimum of a 2.5 gallon system. 1. this will keep the system from short cycling (off& on) which now heater likes and 2. you will not have erratic up and down swing in the heater.

Heating batteries is done all the time in large equipment and nothing says you can't do it in smaller equipment. On the North slope of Alaska its done all the time. Their are battery heaters already available in different sizes.

If the fuel is treated you should not have to worry about much heat. We do he fuel on over the road trucks using the coolant heater. As for the fuel jelling going to the Espar we have a heater available that screws onto the pump and heats the fuel as its going through. The problem with fuel jelling going to the Espar is not in the line its at the pump. So if you can keep the pump warm and the fuel thats going through it warm you will have not have jelling issues.

As I have said before design is everything, next is a proper installation. 90% of all issues usually go back to a bad installation.

Greg

[dzzz]

Diesel heaters are very popular in the western U.S. on commercial vehicles. 2000m is a modest elevation. I'm sure a heater can be setup to run well from 0-2000m. It's in the 2000m range that some people report sooting, and some do fine.

I40 through Flagstaff is at about 7000ft I think. I'm sure there are webasto/espar installers in that area that can set up a system for truckers that run east/west. In fact I believe the next overland expo will be at about 7000 ft. A good test for who has heat

Jason, I'm not sure of your point about petrol. Aren't we going to heat with the fuel our trucks use? Kerosine is superior to diesel for these heaters. That's what I would use instead of gasoline if for some reason I wasn't burning diesel. However, I don't believe diesel is a compromise at all in cold/altitude with a well designed system and seasonal fuel blend.