Optima Battery Problems

TangoBlue

American Adventurist
snip If I were able to deal directly with an Optima battery engineer I'm sure he could point out the gaps in my knowledge, my mistakes and where I was on the correct path. I in turn could find out if this person was an engineer whether degreed or through life experience or if he was a harried customer service tech that was ill prepared to discuss real battery issues. We've all heard of the city trash collectors who are called "Sanitation Engineers" and know well that they engineer nothing. snip

Never will happen Jim; this is what I recently learned.

Optima Jim already shared this thread with all of Optima's engineers in the company headquarters auditorium, asking for volunteers to respond to your repeated queries...

[crickets chirping]

...way to clear a room, OJ.

One Optima engineer scurrying out of the auditorium was overheard saying, "JCI doesn't make enough money to pay me to do that..."

Another said, "It's times like this where, I for one, am happy to be a faceless engineer with Faceless-Mega Battery Company, Inc."


This thread teaches a lot, has helped many, and entertained legions.
 

Overbear

Observer
Having only glanced across this thread and not read every single post. I can only offer my own experences with the subject.

2 yellow top, 3 red top, all burned out in 7 years time in the rig, every one of them dead beond repair. Every one of them sits in a pile on the side of the garage, in their place, a Diehard Platnum. I have run that for 2 years now, no problems.

It comes down to this, new style Optima batteries just are not designed to handle the harsh world of heavy winching, offroad banging around, and heavy drain put on them by a rock rig. If your out driving your truck/car every day, sure they are good, but go out and demand them to stand up to winching up a hill, turning over a high compression motor, and running rocklights all night long and *doa*.
 
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teotwaki

Excelsior!
Never will happen Jim; this is what I recently learned.

Optima Jim already shared this thread with all of Optima's engineers in the company headquarters auditorium, asking for volunteers to respond to your repeated queries...

[crickets chirping]

...way to clear a room, OJ.

One Optima engineer scurrying out of the auditorium was overheard saying, "JCI doesn't make enough money to pay me to do that..."

Another said, "It's times like this where, I for one, am happy to be a faceless engineer with Faceless-Mega Battery Company, Inc."


This thread teaches a lot, has helped many, and entertained legions.

That is so embarassingly funny!! Thank you for the laugh at myself :ylsmoke:
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
ok my Optima yellow top was dead when I went to move my car this weekend. No fault to the battery, I normally disconnect it in the winter this time I did not, car doesn't get driven much...

Anyway I seen some talk about charging and didn't want to read the whole 15pages of BS...

Is my regular box charger 2amp - 20amp - 50amp boost charger fine to use???


Yes, that'll work fine.

There is *no such thing* as an "AGM specific" battery charger. AGMs take the same charge voltages as flooded batteries (more or less - charge voltage specs vary slightly by manufacturer). AGMs generally will accept higher charging amperage than flooded. However, Optima doesn't recommend going over 10a charge current on their batteries.


There IS such a thing as a "GEL specific" battery charger because GELs require slightly lower charge voltages than AGM/FLA.
 
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Buliwyf

Viking with a Hammer
I can't see that you really performed more than a cursory read of the thread. Optima Jim has had no specific advice to help with my battery so all the other repetitive advertisement he types in is useless. Lots of questions for me but no direction to head in. I've given pages and pages of technical data but all I get is words back because the nameless faceless Optima "engineer" doesn't exist. My rig does not "eat" Optimas because the Optima does not connect to anything but the fridge. The reality is that the Optima battery does not survive a real life "deep" cycle installment with an Engel fridge. The battery requires being babied with an external battery charger because the Optima battery is not compatible with OEM battery charging systems that are functioning perfectly. All of this flies in the face of the Optima "deep cycle" facade that has been so carefully nurtured since they laid off all of the American factory workers.

No.

If you drain an Optima too far, too much, it's toast. All batteries have limits. Lipo, A123, Nicad, Gell cell whatever. Optimas aren't the best choice for a camper unless you're willing to keep an eye on voltage. A lead acid battery is better for your application.

This is a decent charger to permanent mount in your Truck:
http://www.boatersontop.com/index.p...=11371&zenid=b140cf2f35d8c0824d808a02e7bbfafa
A Kohler 6a float charger is even better IME, but possibly the same part. These should be fully potted and waterproof.

I have noticed no need for any different alternators or chargers as long as quality units are used. Lower voltage chargers make no sense and are not needed. Float chargers should float at 13.3-13.5vdc. Your car charges/runs at 14.5vdc. Those are both fine.
 
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dwh

Tail-End Charlie
If you drain an Optima too far, too much, it's toast.

Optimas have a well-known issue that due to the lower internal resistance, when fully drained they will drop to a lower voltage than regular batteries. Some (maybe even most) battery chargers won't charge them when they are that low. In that case, the problem is not the battery, it's the charger.

There is a workaround for that issue, and there is a video on the Optima site about how to do it.


Apparently, when it happens that some charger won't work due to the battery voltage being too low, most people just *assume* the battery is toast - even though it isn't.

That is probably a lot of the reason why Optimas have a dodgy rep with some people...
 
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Buliwyf

Viking with a Hammer
Yeah, I've seen that. Our Shumacher charger on it's lowest setting, 1-2amps will bring them back up and save them sometimes. If there's 2+ volts left and you've only done that once, you may be ok.

0.1v a couple times is more than they can handle. Nothing wrong with that. It is, what it is.

But there have been plenty of times I've been able to jump start a truck with a dead Optima. And that truck will run fine for 3 days then die at a gas station while filling up. They can be extremely unpredictable once damaged.

Sometimes I'll get lucky and they'll start to act like a dieing lead acid battery and actually carbon pile load test weakly before dieing. But the problem there is that an Optima that's dieing still has excessive power to start a truck and the owner never knows it's dieing until it deos.
 
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cnynrat

Expedition Leader
Optimas have a well-known issue that due to the lower internal resistance, when fully drained they will drop to a lower voltage than regular batteries. Some (maybe even most) battery chargers won't charge them when they are that low. In that case, the problem is not the battery, it's the charger.

Assuming the underlined part is true (I don't know whether or not it is), I don't agree with the bolded statement. Batteries are devices that operate within an ecosystem that is pretty much outside the control of the battery manufacturer. As an engineer, I'd suggest it is incumbent on the battery designer to ensure that their battery operates properly with charging systems commonly found in the real world. I'm not really interested in a battery that comes along with a requirement for unique charging systems or procedures.
 

bfdiesel

Explorer
Since we have taken the not made in the USA path does any one want to list battery manufactures that use good ol US workers to make batteries? I would like to know this because I do try to support our workers here at home.

I believe EnerSys makes batteries in Warrensburg, Mo and they are the makers of Odyssey and Die Hard Platinum batteries.
 

cnynrat

Expedition Leader
Lifeline batteries are manufactured in West Covina CA. They aren't cheap, but they seem to work very well.

I have one in my Bigfoot camper and another in our Horizon, and I've been very happy with their performance.
 

Stumpalump

Expedition Leader
(12-volt batteries supply useful energy only through a limited range -- from over 14 volts (when fully charged and unrested) down to 10.5 volts in use/under load (when lights dim, pumps groan and TV pictures get small). No 12-volt battery will remain at over 14 volts for more than seconds unless it's being charged. The lowest limit is 10.5 volts (used in testing) and obviously unsatisfactory in practical use. Experienced RVers try to use no more than 20% to 50% of the energy available in a battery before recharging. That means they never let resting voltage get below 12.5. They never use more than 50% before recharging (resting volts of 12.3) except in an emergency. They know that, if resting voltage ever reaches 12.1, they have deep-discharged one cycle and that a battery is good for only so many cycles (from as low as 20 in an automotive battery to 180 in a golf cart battery, with the typical RV/marine battery good for no more than 30).

Jim runs the battery down below 12.3 volts too many times then blame Optima Jim for personally handing out pink slips to factory workers that produced in a country racked by EPA laws governing the lead. A battery at 12.1 is deeply discharged and it can only do this a few times. Pulling them down to 10 and all bets are off as far as saving the battery. I get away with it but only sometimes and when I don't I pay. I think Jim needs to take better care not to discharge his batts and pay the other Jim for a new Optima after he promises to keep them above 12.3 volts.
 

cnynrat

Expedition Leader
(12-volt batteries supply useful energy only through a limited range -- from over 14 volts (when fully charged and unrested) down to 10.5 volts in use/under load (when lights dim, pumps groan and TV pictures get small). No 12-volt battery will remain at over 14 volts for more than seconds unless it's being charged. The lowest limit is 10.5 volts (used in testing) and obviously unsatisfactory in practical use. Experienced RVers try to use no more than 20% to 50% of the energy available in a battery before recharging. That means they never let resting voltage get below 12.5. They never use more than 50% before recharging (resting volts of 12.3) except in an emergency. They know that, if resting voltage ever reaches 12.1, they have deep-discharged one cycle and that a battery is good for only so many cycles (from as low as 20 in an automotive battery to 180 in a golf cart battery, with the typical RV/marine battery good for no more than 30).

Jim runs the battery down below 12.3 volts too many times then blame Optima Jim for personally handing out pink slips to factory workers that produced in a country racked by EPA laws governing the lead. A battery at 12.1 is deeply discharged and it can only do this a few times. Pulling them down to 10 and all bets are off as far as saving the battery. I get away with it but only sometimes and when I don't I pay. I think Jim needs to take better care not to discharge his batts and pay the other Jim for a new Optima after he promises to keep them above 12.3 volts.

I agree the standard recommendation for deep cycle battery applications such as in an RV is not to discharge below 50%, which is 12.1v. Your 12.5v number above is really closer to a 75% state of charge. It's nice to keep discharge cycles at or above that level, but not always practical the way many of us use our vehicles.

In looking through this thread I found one reference where Jim showed data indicating his battery voltage was 12.11 volts, but that was not the resting voltage - the battery was under load at the time. So, unless I missed some other information somewhere in the thread, I think you are jumping to a conclusion ("Jim runs his battery down below 12.3 volts too many times") that isn't supported by the available data.

Based on my experience, I'll keep buying and recommending Lifeline batteries for deep cycle applications.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
As an engineer, I'd suggest it is incumbent on the battery designer to ensure that their battery operates properly with charging systems commonly found in the real world.

They do. Optimas work properly with "any ol' battery charger" under normal conditions.

It's only when (very) deeply discharged that the issue occurs. That situation would not be the fault of the designer, it would be the fault of the end user, who discharged the battery beyond stated recommendations.

I can't really see that it would be "good design practice" for Optima to take steps to increase the internal resistance of their batteries simply in order to insure that they charge properly with every possible charger whenever some end user pulls a ********** and drains the battery completely flat.


Nobody designs batteries to work properly when hammered into the ground by end users.



I'm not really interested in a battery that comes along with a requirement for unique charging systems or procedures.

Well...technically...ALL batteries come with unique requirements. They all have their own spec sheets and charging recommendations, and they all vary slightly from one manufacturer to the next.

In the "12 volt nominal" world, just about any "12v" charger will work with just about any "12v" battery. The exact same charger that will work with Lifelines will work with Optimas or some El Cheapo from the auto part store.

But there is a great difference in chargers. My old Schauer charger will only take a battery to 12.6v, whereas a decent multi-stage will pump a battery up to anywhere between 14.4v-14.8v.

Following your lead and using Lifeline as an example...

Lifeline recommends 14.2v-14.4v as the maximum charge voltage.
But "normal" constant voltage battery chargers are never set that high.
Therefore, Lifelines require a "special" charger (multi-stage) to reach full charge.


So...technically...any requirement for a multi-stage charger - which is neither a "standard" battery charger, nor a "standard" vehicular voltage regulated alternator setup - IS a requirement for a "unique charging system or procedure".
 

teotwaki

Excelsior!
There is *such a thing* as an "AGM specific" battery charger.

Let me fix that for ya' because the irony is too funny
charger_photo_stripe.jpg

"The OPTIMA® Chargers™s Digital 1200 Battery Charger enhances the performance of OPTIMA and other AGM batteries, recovers deeply discharged battery and extends battery life."
Now we can quibble about the dreaded details that they were not going to produce a charger that could not be used on wet cells and so on but it absolutely is built specifically for Optima AGM batteries, the only kind they sell.

"The OPTIMA Chargers Digital 1200 Battery Charger is optimized when used with high-performance AGM batteries but has enhanced charging capabilities that can also be used with all traditional types of automotive and motorcycle batteries."

If you do even a small search you'll find that there truly are AGM-only specific battery chargers, whether it is because they adhere exactly to recomm

"AGM/OPTIMA BatteryMINDer PLUS® Maintenance Charger / Desulfator-Conditioner 12 Volt – 1.0 Amp1
Don’t just charge your batteries…Condition them!
This specially adjusted BatteryMINDer PLUS® is designed to maintain Optima, Odyssey and all known brands of AGM sealed “dry” batteries at full charge, without ever overcharging."

http://www.batteryminders.com/batte...-Maintenance-Charger-Desulfator--p-16151.html

Now that I got the humor out of the way.... :elkgrin: what I've read so far does specify max currents and also voltages with differences in tenths of a volt from other battery types. There are AGM specific limits but it is hard to easily validate if some charger truly meets the specifications or if they slap a ne "AGM" label on a flooded cell charger. :ylsmoke:
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Since we have taken the not made in the USA path does any one want to list battery manufactures that use good ol US workers to make batteries? I would like to know this because I do try to support our workers here at home.

I believe EnerSys makes batteries in Warrensburg, Mo and they are the makers of Odyssey and Die Hard Platinum batteries.

Crown batteries and East Penn (Deka) are both Made in USA as well. Both comply with ISO 9001.
 

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