Optima Battery Problems

[teotwaki]

(12-volt batteries supply useful energy only through a limited range -- from over 14 volts (when fully charged and unrested) down to 10.5 volts in use/under load (when lights dim, pumps groan and TV pictures get small). No 12-volt battery will remain at over 14 volts for more than seconds unless it's being charged. The lowest limit is 10.5 volts (used in testing) and obviously unsatisfactory in practical use. Experienced RVers try to use no more than 20% to 50% of the energy available in a battery before recharging. That means they never let resting voltage get below 12.5. They never use more than 50% before recharging (resting volts of 12.3) except in an emergency. They know that, if resting voltage ever reaches 12.1, they have deep-discharged one cycle and that a battery is good for only so many cycles (from as low as 20 in an automotive battery to 180 in a golf cart battery, with the typical RV/marine battery good for no more than 30).

Jim runs the battery down below 12.3 volts too many times then blame Optima Jim for personally handing out pink slips to factory workers that produced in a country racked by EPA laws governing the lead. A battery at 12.1 is deeply discharged and it can only do this a few times. Pulling them down to 10 and all bets are off as far as saving the battery. I get away with it but only sometimes and when I don't I pay. I think Jim needs to take better care not to discharge his batts and pay the other Jim for a new Optima after he promises to keep them above 12.3 volts.

How many times have I run the battery below 12.3 volts and how many times is "too many"? How many times do you run them down and is that too many?? I've openly posted photos and numbers for what OJ asked but don't use a broad brush to paint my battery usage as bad when you've posted no tests of your own. Feel free to educate me but don't make accusations, please.

Anyhow, "never letting resting voltage get below 12.5" brings about the whole discussion of how long it takes to replenish the Amp Hours drawn out of the Optima and how an alternator differs from an AC powered charger in the time it takes to do that. What I've seen so far is that it takes longer for the alternator than the AC powered charger. I've yet to try to document it because I don't have an easy way to measure and data capture the amperage flow at the battery terminals. I think I've got to build some heavy duty adaptors to get my Watts Up set up in line with the battery cables.

For the record, I never blamed OJ for the Denver pink slips. His employers handled that. Lots of companies still produce batteries in the US in compliance with EPA laws. Deka, US Batteries and so on. So exactly why are you defending Optima for laying off US workers?

 

[teotwaki]

Crown batteries and East Penn (Deka) are both Made in USA as well. Both comply with ISO 9001.

And probably comply with all the myriad of state and EPA laws that protect the environment. I absolutely am sympathetic to companies struggling to post a profit and taking the easier offshore route. johnson Controls has done that so well that their web site proudly proclaims them as a "top employer in China" http://www.johnsoncontrols.com/publish/us/en.html

Their China Fact sheet shows over 17,000 people employed in China in various business units.

 

[dwh]

Now that I got the humor out of the way....

:elkgrin: what I've read so far does specify max currents and also voltages with differences in tenths of a volt from other battery types.

More difference than that.

Optimas, IIRC, specify 15.6v as max, whereas Lifeline, as I just checked when I wrote my previous post, spec 14.4v as max. Both are AGM - though one is sprial wound design while the other is flat plate design.

And then there is temperature compensation which adjusts the voltage up or down based on the battery temp. So, any battery charger without temperature compensation is just ballparking anyway. Bloody hard to be "specific" when they're ballparking in the first place.

PLUS - any of those "AGM specific" chargers would work just fine on flooded batteries as well.

There are AGM specific limits

No, there are not. That statement is nothing but a generality.

Different AGM batteries, from different manufacturers, all have slightly different specs. Some manufacturers have slightly different specs for different models of AGM batteries FROM THE SAME MANUFACTURER.

AGM battery A has X limits.
AGM battery B has Y limits.

Any "AGM specific" charger programmed according to the specs for battery A will be off if used on battery B.



Please...

"AGM Specific" is pure marketing BS.

The only real requirement for an "AGM specific" battery charger is, "Don't automatically run an equalize cycle."

 

[cnynrat]

They do. Optimas work properly with "any ol' battery charger" under normal conditions.

It's only when (very) deeply discharged that the issue occurs. That situation would not be the fault of the designer, it would be the fault of the end user, who discharged the battery beyond stated recommendations.

Frankly, I think deeply discharged deep cycle batteries are a "normal" condition in these applications. By that I don't mean it will happen all the time, but rather I think most users will do this at one time or another in the life of their batteries. I know it's not recommended, and I know the batteries have a limited number of deep cycles they can accept in their lifetime. But I think the reality is that many users will encounter a situation where they will deeply discharge their battery.

Following your lead and using Lifeline as an example...

Lifeline recommends 14.2v-14.4v as the maximum charge voltage.
But "normal" constant voltage battery chargers are never set that high.
Therefore, Lifelines require a "special" charger (multi-stage) to reach full charge.

True, Lifeline recommends 14.2v - 14.4 v for maximum battery life. They also state that lower voltages can be used, and in particular might be very acceptable for "light duty" applications.

Multi-stage chargers are commonly available. I don't consider them to be "special." In fact, I think that's what you would normally find in RV/trailer applications where you would find a Lifeline battery. That's very different than your earlier observation that "... some (maybe even most) chargers will not charge a deeply discharged Optima battery."

 

[dwh]

AND...

Reading that page about the Optima 1200 charger (written by OJ BTW),

http://powersource.optimabatteries....l-1200-battery-charger-to-product-collection/


I see this:

"The new 12-Amp OPTIMA Chargers Digital 1200 Battery Charger product will be available for consumers to purchase in the summer of 2012. It can be used for charging flooded and AGM batteries,"

And...

"The OPTIMA Chargers Digital 1200 Battery Charger is optimized when used with high-performance AGM batteries but has enhanced charging capabilities that can also be used with all traditional types of automotive batteries."



AGM Specific...
In a pig's eye.

 

[teotwaki]

AND...

Reading that page about the Optima 1200 charger (written by OJ BTW),

http://powersource.optimabatteries....l-1200-battery-charger-to-product-collection/

I see this:

"The new 12-Amp OPTIMA Chargers Digital 1200 Battery Charger product will be available for consumers to purchase in the summer of 2012. It can be used for charging flooded and AGM batteries,"

And...

"The OPTIMA Chargers Digital 1200 Battery Charger is optimized when used with high-performance AGM batteries but has enhanced charging capabilities that can also be used with all traditional types of automotive batteries."

AGM Specific...
In a pig's eye.

I already pointed out the dual use. Optima built it specifically to sell for charging their AGM batteries. Considering they are owned by Johnson Controls it is obvious that it had to be able to handle their other non-agm products.

 

[teotwaki]

---snip---AGM Specific...
In a pig's eye.

from my previous post,

"AGM/OPTIMA BatteryMINDer PLUS® Maintenance Charger / Desulfator-Conditioner 12 Volt – 1.0 Amp1
Don’t just charge your batteries…Condition them!
This specially adjusted BatteryMINDer PLUS® is designed to maintain Optima, Odyssey and all known brands of AGM sealed “dry” batteries at full charge, without ever overcharging."
http://www.batteryminders.com/batte...-Maintenance-Charger-Desulfator--p-16151.html

but since the pig is nearsighted I can't help it to actually research the topic

 

[dwh]

from my previous post,

"AGM/OPTIMA BatteryMINDer PLUS® Maintenance Charger / Desulfator-Conditioner 12 Volt – 1.0 Amp1
Don’t just charge your batteries…Condition them!
This specially adjusted BatteryMINDer PLUS® is designed to maintain Optima, Odyssey and all known brands of AGM sealed “dry” batteries at full charge, without ever overcharging."
http://www.batteryminders.com/batte...-Maintenance-Charger-Desulfator--p-16151.html

but since the pig is nearsighted I can't help it to actually research the topic

Research? That's ironic. Perhaps YOU should read the fine print. From that page you linked:

"Charge voltage, 14.7; Float-Maintenance voltage, 13.6"

Which means, that THAT charger bulks the battery up to 14.7v - which is actually higher than most AGM battery manufacturers recommend.

So..."AGM specific"? No, because it exceeds the recommended bulk voltage for most AGM batteries.


Which doesn't actually matter, since it still FLOATS at the same 13.4v-13.6v that every other battery charger floats at and most AGM (as well as all flooded) batteries CAN handle being driven up to 14.7v as long as it doesn't stay there all the time.

AND

You could use that charger on any flooded battery as well. The only problem would be a little extra water use.

Which is no big deal, considering that an Iota charger with IQ/4 charge controller will bulk a battery to 14.8v anyway. Which would make the Iota "AGM specific". Except it's NOT because there is NO SUCH THING as "AGM Specific".

 

[teotwaki]

Research? That's ironic. Perhaps YOU should read the fine print.

right back atcha' from the Optima site that you so gleefully posted.....

The best method for recharging a deeply discharged AGM battery is to purchase a modern charger that has kept up with battery technology. Many chargers now have AGM-specific settings and de-sulfation steps that help recondition and recover deeply discharged AGM batteries.

I know what your goal is here but this is just sparring over advertising hype, entertaining but a waste of time since you are not being paid to defend Optima. I'm more interested in the relevance of the bulk charge etc. and how the voltage and amperage rates interact with the battery. You seem to know a bit about it so let me know what you think. I'm interested in how this might compare to what my alternator is doing to the Optima but not the DieHard.

Cheers!

 

[Overbear]

right back atcha' from the Optima site that you so gleefully posted.....

The best method for recharging a deeply discharged AGM battery is to purchase a modern charger that has kept up with battery technology. Many chargers now have AGM-specific settings and de-sulfation steps that help recondition and recover deeply discharged AGM batteries.

I know what your goal is here but this is just sparring over advertising hype, entertaining but a waste of time since you are not being paid to defend Optima. I'm more interested in the relevance of the bulk charge etc. and how the voltage and amperage rates interact with the battery. You seem to know a bit about it so let me know what you think. I'm interested in how this might compare to what my alternator is doing to the Optima but not the DieHard.

Cheers!

Don't bother, I have yet to have any of the so called "AGM" chargers, and ive bought the best ones I could afford, do anything to save a discharged/burned down Optima. The simple fact is once a optima hits 10v, its history.

 

[teotwaki]

Don't bother, I have yet to have any of the so called "AGM" chargers, and ive bought the best ones I could afford, do anything to save a discharged/burned down Optima. The simple fact is once a optima hits 10v, its history.

Out of morbid curiousity and maybe to beat OJ to the punch.... did you try the Optima Factory method of paralelling a good battery as per their site?

Recovery Option #2: The DIY Solution

This is a recovery method for the do-it-yourselfer using the equipment you've got in the garage. With this option, you're going to trick your charger into charging the deeply discharged AGM battery.

Here's what you need:

■Battery charger
■Jumper cables
■A good battery, preferably above 12.2 volts (It can be an AGM or flooded battery, it doesn't matter.)
■The seemingly dead, deeply discharged AGM battery
■A watch or timer
Now, here's what you do:

1.Hook up the good battery and deeply discharged AGM battery in parallel—positive to positive and negative to negative. Do not have the charger connected to the battery or turned on at this stage.
2.Now, hook up the good battery to the charger. Turn on the charger. The charger will "see" the voltage of the good battery, and start providing a charge.
3.After the batteries have been hooked up for about an hour, check to see if the AGM battery is slightly warm or hot to the touch. Batteries naturally become warm during charging, but excessive heat may be an indication that there really is something wrong with the battery. Also discontinue the process if you hear the battery "gassing"—a hissing sound coming from the safety valves. If it's hot or gassing, STOP CHARGING IMMEDIATELY!
4.Check back every hour to see if the AGM battery has charged to 10.5 volts or above. If it has, disconnect the charger from the wall outlet and remove the good battery from the charger. Now, connect only the deeply discharged AGM battery to the charger. Turn on the charger and continue until the AGM battery reaches a full charge, or until the automatic charger completes the charge process. In most cases, the AGM battery will be recovered.

 

[Stumpalump]

How many times have I run the battery below 12.3 volts and how many times is "too many"? How many times do you run them down and is that too many?? I've openly posted photos and numbers for what OJ asked but don't use a broad brush to paint my battery usage as bad when you've posted no tests of your own. Feel free to educate me but don't make accusations, please.

Anyhow, "never letting resting voltage get below 12.5" brings about the whole discussion of how long it takes to replenish the Amp Hours drawn out of the Optima and how an alternator differs from an AC powered charger in the time it takes to do that. What I've seen so far is that it takes longer for the alternator than the AC powered charger. I've yet to try to document it because I don't have an easy way to measure and data capture the amperage flow at the battery terminals. I think I've got to build some heavy duty adaptors to get my Watts Up set up in line with the battery cables.

For the record, I never blamed OJ for the Denver pink slips. His employers handled that. Lots of companies still produce batteries in the US in compliance with EPA laws. Deka, US Batteries and so on. So exactly why are you defending Optima for laying off US workers?

Who cares where they make them. Let the 12 year old child labor make the 4 bucks a day and inhale the lead for all I care. I know it's sad when we loose jobs but it's not just battery companys doing it. When you bring up an unrelated topic or get personal it's a sign you are loosing an agument. Liberals constantly use the same tactic and it's just a plain crappy diversion to deflect from truth or reasoning. Maybe not your intent but what does them moving have to do with your specific problem? Nothing. As far as accusations.. Call it what you will. I'll call it just the internet and I'm helping a broke High Schooler for all I know. Aside I'm just thinking you sulfated your batts and they won't behave perfectly ever again. The best charger in the world won't fix them but a nice new one will if you don't run it below 12.3volts too often. I can't think of anything else that explains your problem. It's been my problem and will be again because I drain the snot out of mine because I thats the way it works out. It kills them quick. I try to do as I say but what I do is run them low or leave them sit and I buy new batts instead of bitching at the battery company. I even talked to our local Optima/Interstate rep a few months ago and out of all the batts he sells he told me the Optima was still the king of their product lines. I tried the new Sears platinum that every body raves about and it read 7 volts after sitting in a modern vehicle that was parked for 7 weeks. All batteries suck and thats why Nikola Tesla and his competitor Albert Einstien spent sleepless nights inventing the electric company.

 

[teotwaki]

Who cares where they make them. Let the 12 year old child labor make the 4 bucks a day and inhale the lead for all I care. ----SNIP.

Please American Sir, my I have more vitriol?

 

[Overbear]

Out of morbid curiousity and maybe to beat OJ to the punch.... did you try the Optima Factory method of paralelling a good battery as per their site?[/COLOR]

Yep, every step of it, and thats why I gave up on the opticrud batteries. Now its strictly odyssey/diehard platnums. Now I will say, I run a Optima in my day to day car (red top) and it works fine, but in a offroad rig, they just can't take the beating.

 

[teotwaki]

Yep, every step of it, and thats why I gave up on the opticrud batteries. Now its strictly odyssey/diehard platnums. Now I will say, I run a Optima in my day to day car (red top) and it works fine, but in a offroad rig, they just can't take the beating.

Thank you very much for the information!