Optima Battery Problems

Dave Bennett

Adventurist
Jim, I've extended an offer to you to validate the truth in what I have posted, including the credentials of our engineer. The fact that you have ignored that offer indicates to me your intent in posting in this thread is not to solve the issues with your vehicle, but to bash Optima and our products. If that is your choice, I am fine with that and I certainly won't ask anyone to lock this thread or make it go away. I've never done that in any conversation I've participated in, as I would prefer these exchanges remain open for people to view and reach their own conclusions.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries

Really? What issues are you solving? Why are you posting here? Oh wait, that's right, to hang around and post in threads about YOUR BRAND?

This is a great thread, but your biased responses add nothing here. If you want to do PR damage control, it's probably better via PM.

BTW, I prefer Odyssey/Die Hard Platinum batts any day of the week ;)

.02
 

OptimaJim

Observer
Hi Michael, I appreciate your question regarding the CTEK D250s Dual. Based on the customer feedback we've received from those who have used CTEK products in the past, we have heard nothing but good things. CTEK is probably familiar with our products and should be able to give you some input on their end as well. In the past, I was allowed to cite, but not endorse, three specific charger brands (not models) that we have received positive customer feedback on. However, I am no longer allowed to do that.
.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
 

Michael

Adventurer
Optima Jim: Thanks for your response. I took a look at the specs of the new (Spring 2012) Optima Digital 1200 charger and they are similar to the observed performance of the CTEK (e.g., the 1200 has up to 14.9VDC output, temp controlled). As the Optima 1200 charger is cited to enhance the performance and extend the life of Optima batteries, I'm comfortable using it as a generic benchmark for other chargers used with your batteries :ylsmoke:

dwh: Thanks for the spec sheet. It is an Optima download and is a bit more informative than the specs I was looking at on the Optima support page. The sheet you provided is more informative in that it clarifies that the 'battery charger' spec of 10A maximum current is for a constant-voltage type of charger.

teotwaki: So far, the CTEK D250s Dual is doing a great job for me. I've conducted a half-dozen test discharges down to 11.5V on my aux battery and the D250s is quickly re-charging my 2.5 year old Optima battery and maintaining an overall higher SOC than previously observed -- despite the limitations of local driving. My next test will be on a longer trip that is coming up soon. As a side note, the system is performing so well that I'm keeping a close eye on both my batteries for signs of overcharging.

At this point, I'm convinced that using an alternator/battery isolator system is adequate for maintaining a 12V battery, but not for optimizing performance or prolonging battery life. Maintaining the long-term health of a deep cycle aux battery requires either frequent 'deep' charging using a 120VAC multi-stage charger or the use of a 12V DC/DC multi-stage charger that is part of an aux power system. In both theory and practice, I'm also convinced it is not so much the brand or type of battery, but the charge/discharge protocol that makes a significant difference in longevity and performance.
 
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teotwaki

Excelsior!
---snip----

teotwaki: So far, the CTEK D250s Dual is doing a great job for me. I've conducted a half-dozen test discharges down to 11.5V on my aux battery and the D250s is quickly re-charging my 2.5 year old Optima battery and maintaining an overall higher SOC than previously observed -- despite the limitations of local driving. My next test will be on a longer trip that is coming up soon. As a side note, the system is performing so well that I'm keeping a close eye on both my batteries for signs of overcharging.

At this point, I'm convinced that using an alternator/battery isolator system is adequate for maintaining a 12V battery, but not for optimizing performance or prolonging battery life. Maintaining the long-term health of a deep cycle aux battery requires either frequent 'deep' charging using a 120VAC multi-stage charger or the use of a 12V DC/DC multi-stage charger that is part of an aux power system. In both theory and practice, I'm also convinced it is not so much the brand or type of battery, but the charge/discharge protocol that makes a significant difference in longevity and performance.

Question: "quickly" means a couple of hours?

I would not expect your starter battery to be overcharged as it is handled by the alternator. Unless you have things set up with a solar panel to charge the starter battery while at rest?

Your conclusions are where I've been heading: A discharged deep cycle Optima (paralelled as a second battery) cannot be as quickly and thoroughly recharged on a car alternator as it can on a AC powered AGM battery charger (about 2 hours). In my case, drawing out 20+ Amp-hours from the battery over 9 hours cannot be easily replenished by a car alternator in 2 hours and it appears that some much longer (undetermined) continuous drive time is needed to even get close.

Recall this from Optima: "Optima Tech Tip #2: An alternator is meant to maintain a battery, not charge it."

They appear to agree that the charge/discharge protocol is very important to the life of an Optima battery and an alternator can't hack it.
 

IdaSHO

IDACAMPER
Recall this from Optima: "Optima Tech Tip #2: An alternator is meant to maintain a battery, not charge it."

They appear to agree that the charge/discharge protocol is very important to the life of an Optima battery and an alternator can't hack it.

From a deeply discharged state, I absolutely agree.
 

Michael

Adventurer
---Snip---
Question: "quickly" means a couple of hours?
---Snip---
That's a surprisingly hard question to answer. I don't have a science-quality test setup, so my data is what can charitably be called 'informal'. My subjective observation is that my aux battery has been charging back up in about 2 hours of driving from the approximately 11.5V I've used as a benchmark in my testing. This can get fuzzy because it takes at least 2-4 hours after shutting the engine off for the surface effect from the charge to dissipate and show the real SOC -- and I haven't always remembered to check it later. :rolleyes: The charge levels when I start the truck the next day (after some discharge due to parasitic loads) would seem to bear out my observations however. As I mentioned, I will be doing some long distance driving soon and that should help me understand the performance better.

The time to recharge is important to your application, so I'll try to get better data for you over the next few months. Interpreting the CTEK specs for a similar charger (XS 7000), it can take up to 8 hours to recharge a battery that is 'completely drained' (10.5V?) back up to 80% capacity -- in other words, up to 8 hours in the bulk charge phase. My battery is rated at 75AH capacity, which means I can get 75A out if I discharge it evenly over 20 hours. Thanks to Mr. Peukert, it can get a bit slippery to determine the total A/H I've been taking out of my battery during my test discharges as I'm certainly not taking 20 hours to to do it, nor am I taking the battery down to a fully discharged condition (doh!). Despite having faced up to my sloppy science, I can state with confidence that my aux battery is now charging much faster, and to a higher level, using the D250s as compared to using just my alternator and a relay controller. Which, after all, is just what you would expect :)
 

HenryJ

Expedition Leader
This may be helpful:
HenryJ said:
Voltmeter Reading State of Charge
  • 12.84 Volts or higher 100%
    12.50 Volts 75%
    12.18 Volts 50%
    11.88 Volts 25%
Warning: Gel and AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat) batteries
require a voltage-limited charger. Charging a Gel or AGM
battery on a typical shop charger – even one time – may
greatly shorten its life. It is imperative not to exceed 15.0V as this will cause the pressure valves to open and out-gas hydrogen, oxygen and water from inside the battery. This will shorten the life of the battery and cause premature failure.

Recommended charging information:
  • Alternator: 13.65-15.0 volts
    Battery Charger: 13.8-15.0 volts; 10 amps maximum; 6-12 hours
    Float charge: 13.2-13.8 volts; 1 amp maximum (indefinite time at lower voltages)
    Rapid Recharge (Constant voltage charger): Maximum voltage15.6 volts. No current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7° C). When current falls below 1 amp, finish with 2 amp constant current for one hour.
All Limits Must Be Strictly Adhered To

Recharge time (assuming 100% discharge - 10.5 volts):
  • 100 amps - 35 minutes
    50 amps - 75 minutes
    25 amps - 140 minutes
Recharge time will vary according to temperature and charger characteristics. When using constant voltage chargers, amperage will taper down as the battery becomes recharged. When amperage drops below 1 amp, the battery will be close to a full charge. (all charge recommendations assume an average temperature of 77°F , 25°C)


* APPROX. BATTERY CHARGING TIME *
STANDARD OF TO FULL CHARGE AT 80°F/27°C

Maximum Rate at
  • 12 V ---------- 50 Amps 30 Amps 20 Amps 10 Amps
    12.6 100% – F U L L C H A R G E –
    12.4 75% ---- 20 min. 135 min. 148 min. 190 min.
    12.2 50% ---- 45 min. 175 min. 195 min. 180 min.
    12.0 25% ---- 65 min. 115 min. 145 min. 280 min.
    11.8 0% ------ 85 min. 150 min. 195 min. 370 min
 

Michael

Adventurer
HenryJ: Thanks for the data! I've used those general specs before to determine battery condition. Unfortunately, unlike a wet-cell battery, you can't use a hydrometer on an AGM battery to accurately measure the SOC. It would be much easier if you could! Also, there are a few more variables in the equation, such as battery temperature and internal resistance (which tends to increase in older batteries). Internal resistance has an impact on both the charge rate and the discharge rate.

Based on those specs, with a charging voltage of ~14.7VDC and a presumed starting SOC of 20-25%, I'm probably seeing almost a full charge in a two hour period, but not a completely charged battery. The CTEK advertises it will put out up to 20A for charging, but the reality is that it will, like all smart chargers, provide the max amperage the battery will accept at the voltage level established. Optima states clearly that the maximum amperage to be used when charging their batteries with a constant voltage charger is 10A at a max of 15VDC. The limit for charging using an alternator is max 15VDC with no current limit. I have a 130A alternator, so current wasn't a problem before, but voltage was being regulated to a lower level, typically 13.1 to 13.4VDC after a few minutes of driving, that was much less than I needed to fully charge my aux battery. So -- if I'm able keep my charging voltage higher for a longer period, but always under 15VDC, then I should get a good charge and have no problems with over-charging.

There is a tendency to get too wrapped up in data, which can detract from common sense. I'm at that point now so it is time to quit and get out on the dirt. I can conclusively say that at this point that I'm getting what I need from my DC/DC charger -- which is a fully charged aux battery -- and that is good enough for me. Time will tell if this solution has any side-effects. Very few solutions are perfect :)
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Michael,

I'm very interested to know if there is any positive effect from the CTEK desulfation routine. It's virtually impossible to find any real world data on desulphators, because almost no one ever does a before/during/after controlled load draw down test to find out if in fact the desulphator has actually restored any lost capacity.
 

Michael

Adventurer
Michael,

I'm very interested to know if there is any positive effect from the CTEK desulfation routine. It's virtually impossible to find any real world data on desulphators, because almost no one ever does a before/during/after controlled load draw down test to find out if in fact the desulphator has actually restored any lost capacity.

I'm also curious about CTEK's claims about desulfation. As you say, the benefits promised are not backed up with any data. Supposedly, the CTEK charger detects sulfation in a battery when first connected -- I presume through detection of higher internal resistance -- and then pulses current and voltage to break up the lead sulfate deposits. Electrical engineers I've talked to about desulfation (i.e., pulsed current conditioning) all said it would be a truly wonderful thing to do, but they had no idea if a commercial battery charger is capable of doing that with any degree of effectiveness. They said that fully re-charging a battery immediately after a deep discharge is the best way to prevent lead sulfate deposits from building up on the plates, but that some sulfation will happen with normal use over time no matter what you do as that is the nature of the battery chemistry. This is especially true with an AGM battery where you can't conduct equalization charges. There is no practical way to measure or observe the degree of desulfation going on in a sealed battery, so for all I know burning incense and chanting near the positive terminal may have equal effect :)

The fact that I'm now using a smart charger instead of my alternator as a charge source will all by itself improve the capacity of my battery, and will help minimize any sulfation that may be occurring. Prior to installing the D250s, I was seeing a max resting SOC after a charge of 12.3 to 12.4VDC on my aux battery, which is why I was looking for alternatives. I'm now consistently seeing a 12.7 to 12.8VDC SOC. I observed that the SOC increased gradually over the test discharge/charge cycles, but it's hard to say what role, if any, desulfation played in that improvement. That the improvement was gradual, instead of immediate, may be a positive indication of desulfation going on. My battery is a few years old, so I was just happy to see any improvement at all. The real benefit will be seeing better long-term performance and a longer service life.

Keep in mind that everything I've said in the last few posts is based on recent observation and experience. I'll make a note to follow up in a few months and let you all know if this new system continues to perform well.
 

teotwaki

Excelsior!
Thanks Michael! Please do continue with the feedback. I know it is hard to take the time to collect written data but regular observations of a real live installation are also great data points. My situation started with general observations that the Optima was not keeping up with the demand so I've tried to figure out how all the pieces work and to discover what was not working right. To me, the Optima factory recommendation of a daily recharging session with an AC powered charger is pretty weak. On top of that Optima is marketing yet another AC powered charger rather than a DC-DC charger that could do more for the health of the battery.

DWH, thanks to you too for all of the great information.
 

bajajim

New member
I am a retired electronics technician from Boeing and have some experience with these batteries.

The most comprehensive tests you can perform on an Optima are charging at 5 or more amps (this depends on the ah capacity of the battery) until the voltage reaches 15. If it doesn't reach 15 OR the temperature rises above 125° F then the battery is likely defective.

If it reaches 15 volts and you have a charger that you can switch to constant-current it should continue to charge for one hour at one amp or until the voltage no longer rises whichever comes first. If you don't have the ability to accomplish the above procedures then simply charge the battery until the voltage stops rising. REMEMBER to never allow the battery temperature to exceed 125° F.

The load test should be performed only after the battery has been fully charged. The preferred load should be about or above 50 amps and the battery voltage should not drop below 10 volts for at least 10 seconds. If you don't have a load tester and don't want to buy one you can simply put the battery in a vehicle and disable the ignition so it won't start. Have someone crank the engine and watch the battery voltage closely. If it drops to or below 9 volts the battery is defective.

I have two Optima D31M's in the bed of my Toyota truck and a 12 year old yellow top under the hood. They are all three in parallel most of the time but I can disconnect the rear from the front with a 100 amp circuit breaker so I can always start my engine.

Something I have noted about earlier Optima batteries and is still true to some extent is that the case is more vulnerable than a hard rubber case and if you drop one more than an inch or so it will probably crack. If the case cracks and you don't notice it and seal it, if possible, the battery will dry out and once that happens it is now a boat anchor or wheel-weight.
 

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