Optima Battery Problems

[ReconH3]

My conclusion to this endless post is: don't buy an Optima because your alternator isn't designed to run it properly. I came to a similar conclusion long ago before reading all this technical stuff. After 4 Optimas taking a dump on me, I vouched to keep away from them forever as well as spread the word. My competition Jeep TJ, that runs two alternators and three traditional batteries, during very heavy winching, had those same batteries for 5 years. They may have lasted longer but I stopped competing and let them die off from lack of use.


"Ex Umbris Venimus"

Sent from my iPhone

 

[OptimaJim]

78Bronco, it would really make my job easier if I were allowed to buy someone's battery back, as the issues that person attributes to our battery will then shift to another company. However, that doesn't solve the customer's problem, it just makes my job easier. Conspiracy theorists would also likely accuse us of trying to buy people's silence. There really is no helping some folks.

dwh, I again appreciate all of your assistance and clarity in this thread. The main reason we suggest “AGM-specific” charger settings is because many chargers on the market offer a “gel/AGM” setting, which we have found in many instances will not fully-charge non-gel batteries, because of the particular settings for gel batteries that you referenced. Regular flooded settings generally work fine on our batteries as well, but we do want folks to avoid settings that may not fully-charge their batteries.

Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.twitter.com/optimabatteries

 

[teotwaki]

78Bronco, it would really make my job easier if I were allowed to buy someone's battery back, as the issues that person attributes to our battery will then shift to another company. However, that doesn't solve the customer's problem, it just makes my job easier. Conspiracy theorists would also likely accuse us of trying to buy people's silence. There really is no helping some folks.

Buy my new/warranteed battery back! Just like CostCo does. Please! :elkgrin:

 

[teotwaki]

The only thing constructive I can add to what dwh has so eloquently written is in terms of design/execution of battery internals and how it relates to resistance. For my particular application, twin batteries in a base-camp oriented trailer build, I went with Optima for the low resistance and fast recharge times. I had already had another trailer with the Enersys product (Sears DieHard Platinum) and it didn't do what I wanted; it did as designed, wasn't defective per se, but was harder to live with.

We are, as a group, probably the best educated and picky bunch of bastards in the offroad community. We not only know our needs, wants, desires, but some of us have actually glimpsed the occasional white unicorn and have gone after it.
I truly pity any and all social media managers, especially any that dabble with the ExPo demographic...

Could you further define what you felt were the operational or electrical differences that made the Diehard Platinum harder to live with and what sort of application or demand the right battery has to satisfy. That would be very useful technical information for this thread. I'd like to leave overall opinions about battery quality out of the picture and focus on how you are meeting your application with the right battery attributes. If folks are better educated about selecting the right battery specifications to meet their needs before they purchase "Wonderful Brand X" they are less likely to be broken hearted if the battery cannot meet their needs.

Thanking you in advance..... :sombrero:

 

[TheAlmightySam]

I had already had another trailer with the Enersys product (Sears DieHard Platinum) and it didn't do what I wanted; it did as designed, wasn't defective per se, but was harder to live with.

Could you further define what you felt were the operational or electrical differences that made the Diehard Platinum harder to live with and what sort of application or demand the right battery has to satisfy.

I'd love to know as well, Bill. I've got a DieHard Platinum Group 31 in my rig, and I've been considering a second for use in my camper shell. I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have on how the Sears battery was hard to live with. Thanks!

 

[Hilldweller]

Simple ---- it just takes longer to recharge an Enersys. For me, a frequent short-hop camper, that meant that I had to whip out the generator once in a while.
I've taken the genny along since getting the Optimas but haven't needed it a single time.

But, in the interest of full disclosure, while I have recharged both brands on the same (Sears) charger for comparison, in actual practice we're talking about a single DHP vs dual Optimas. The Optimas are 75 AH each and the DHP was 100 (I think). It was also a JK alternator @ 160 amps and now a Power Wagon @ 180 amps.

So there's no hope of science on this one today, Jim. Sorry...

The DHP was a fine battery; don't get me wrong or misunderstand what I'm saying. It just needed more charge time than I was able (willing) to give it.
For regular weekend trips it lasted. It was the 3 or 3.5 day weekends when it would get iffy and my fridge might shut off --- that and it wouldn't fully recharge if I changed locations.

 

[Hilldweller]

Another in the series of Hilldweller Presents Boring Annecdote Theater:

We took a roadtrip in May, Georgia to VA, MD, WV, back to GA ---- scenic 2-lane roads mostly, maybe about 200 miles of dirt. The equipment was what you all know I have, the PW, the teardrop, two Optimas running an ARB 50 quart fridge, a bunch of LEDs, and the Fantastic Fan once in a while. Additional assets were one campground with power on days 3-6. The rest of the 17 days was just the truck to charge things.

I brought two meters, the onboard charger, my Optima charger, & the generator. I monitored things and then started to play around --- predicting how long a drive I'd need for full charge. A little math here and there and adjusting the speed and I was able to fully top-off those batteries every time. My wife kept asking me, "what are you doing back there?"
I was checking the state of charge, ajusting my route and driving style to time my charging.

I know. I'm a nerd. I can't help it. I considered this fun and part of the enjoyment of the trip.
The real power-hog was the Fantastic Fan; it sucked juice faster than the electric blanket we use in winter.

Here's the roadtrip slideshow. It was a great trip, btw...


Again, I'm just relating my experiences here. I'm NOT a battery expert; I attended one 8-hour battery class 12 years ago for one of my electronics certifications. I went to OptimaJim for advice and sympathy when I was building the new trailer and he pointed me towards resources to help me decide which battery to buy. He didn't push the Optima product line at all but he did give me links to Power Pack Nation. I asked the poor guy to join this forum...

 

[LandCruiserPhil]

Power Pack Nation.

Always nice to put a face with a name >>

Affectionately known as OPTIMA’s “Ultimate Battery Resource” for the automotive and marine enthusiast communities, Optima Jim has been a car and truck enthusiast his whole life – so he’s able to provide answers based on his firsthand experience and knowledge. He can tell you how OPTIMA’s Spiralcell® Technology works, which OPTIMA battery model is right for your vehicle and how you’ll want to use your battery. In addition, Optima Jim has all the answers concerning proper charging, storage and maintenance – all factors that can improve the life of any OPTIMA battery.

Of course, if Optima Jim is ever stumped, he can get you answers straight from OPTIMA’s engineers. From there, he turns the technical answers into news-you-can-use (meaning: he can make it clear, in English).

 

[Hilldweller]

Jim can probably also tell you what it's like to try and defend a Shaq attack...

 

[teotwaki]

Thanks for the effort to type it all up! I did not expect science and I am quite happy with all that you have posted. You don't have to keep apoligizing for swapping out the DHP battery, I understand that you made a decision based on observed performance in your personal overlanding setup. I fully appreciate your awesome nerdli-ness!

Simple ---- it just takes longer to recharge an Enersys. For me, a frequent short-hop camper, that meant that I had to whip out the generator once in a while.
I've taken the genny along since getting the Optimas but haven't needed it a single time.

But, in the interest of full disclosure, while I have recharged both brands on the same (Sears) charger for comparison, in actual practice we're talking about a single DHP vs dual Optimas. The Optimas are 75 AH each and the DHP was 100 (I think). It was also a JK alternator @ 160 amps and now a Power Wagon @ 180 amps.

So there's no hope of science on this one today, Jim. Sorry...

The DHP was a fine battery; don't get me wrong or misunderstand what I'm saying. It just needed more charge time than I was able (willing) to give it.
For regular weekend trips it lasted. It was the 3 or 3.5 day weekends when it would get iffy and my fridge might shut off --- that and it wouldn't fully recharge if I changed locations.

In addition to the batteries in the trailer you'd have a starting battery under the hood (brand? model?) and that all batteries were essentially wired in parallel across the alternator's output if the engine is running. (?)

Another in the series of Hilldweller Presents Boring Annecdote Theater:

We took a roadtrip in May, Georgia to VA, MD, WV, back to GA ---- scenic 2-lane roads mostly, maybe about 200 miles of dirt. The equipment was what you all know I have, the PW, the teardrop, two Optimas running an ARB 50 quart fridge, a bunch of LEDs, and the Fantastic Fan once in a while. Additional assets were one campground with power on days 3-6. The rest of the 17 days was just the truck to charge things.

I brought two meters, the onboard charger, my Optima charger, & the generator. I monitored things and then started to play around --- predicting how long a drive I'd need for full charge. A little math here and there and adjusting the speed and I was able to fully top-off those batteries every time. My wife kept asking me, "what are you doing back there?"
I was checking the state of charge, ajusting my route and driving style to time my charging.

I know. I'm a nerd. I can't help it. I considered this fun and part of the enjoyment of the trip.
The real power-hog was the Fantastic Fan; it sucked juice faster than the electric blanket we use in winter.

Again, I'm just relating my experiences here. I'm NOT a battery expert; I attended one 8-hour battery class 12 years ago for one of my electronics certifications. I went to OptimaJim for advice and sympathy when I was building the new trailer and he pointed me towards resources to help me decide which battery to buy. He didn't push the Optima product line at all but he did give me links to Power Pack Nation. I asked the poor guy to join this forum...

So far I am seeing that you may have increased your total amp-hours by 50% when going to the dual Optima batteries. I am interested in the internal resistance numbers since I don't know the exact models of batteries that you have. A group 31 Diehard is the Odyssey PC1500 and has 2.5 milli Ohms and most Optimas seem to fall within 2.5 to 3 milli-Ohms. Certain models of Odysseys can go up to 7 milli ohms but I do not know if there are any DHP versions of those. Why do you think that the DHP had significantly higher resistance?

In a perfect world, if you take two batteries of exactly the same type and put them in parallel the total resistance is equal to 1/2 that of just one battery and total output current doubles. You have gained improvements in both internal resistance and amp-hours so even two Sears DHP in parallel will outperform one DHP and maybe improve charging time too (?). No need to have bought two Optimas?

 

[teotwaki]

Hilldweller, since my last post I've been thinking about the single Enersys Die Hard Platinum (DHP) vs. dual Optima example. This statement: "it just takes longer to recharge an Enersys" really needs to be qualified or else a reader might assume that the Enersys is less capable without realizing that this is apples and oranges. We cannot so easily condemn a 100 Amp-Hour Battery when its performance is being measured against a 150 Amp-Hour battery (dual Optimas).

What I've been thinking about is that the single battery of lesser capacity was likely more deeply discharged than the dual batteries in the given application. If the fridge pulled an average of 1 Amp per hour during 40 hours of stationary time the Enersys's battery could be at a lower State Of Charge than a battery with 50% more Amp Hours (the dual Optimas). It could make sense that it would take longer to recharge the single Enersys on your car alternator and that additional charging from the Sears AC powered charger was required.

You mentioned that you made lots of measurements with some volt meters so perhaps you can share more information.



Some examples of how long different batteriy combinations might last with a 1 Amp-hour discharge:

A single Optima would yield 86 hours .... { Peukert calc T = 20 hour(75Amp-Hour/1 Amp x20 hours) with Peukert constant k= 1.1 }
A single DHP at 100 Amp-hour yields 117 hours max
Dual Optimas would be good for 183 hours max
Dual DHPs would yield 252 hours


PS: I ran across a custom DC-DC battery charger at http://www.powerstream.com/DCC.htm and it may have already been posted

 

[Hilldweller]

Yeah, that's why I said there was no science, Jim. There isn't any.

And most of what I had figured out for the DHP got thrown away after I sold that trailer. I never dreamed that I'd want all the info again.

But, what I did was, I discharged each power source down to 12.5 volts and then recharged them with the Sears charger 'til it said done. Apples to watermelon comparison.
The Jeep had an Optima as the primary battery, a Redtop, 160 amp alternator, and one DHP, the biggest they had.
The PW has the stock MOPAR AGM battery and the two BlueTop D31M batteries being maintained by the 180 amp alternator and much better wiring.

The DHP never charged up fully off the alternator. And the Optimas always do ---- again, lots and lots of caveats. I was never angry with the DHP --- I just wanted my White Unicorn, the set-up that wouldn't need babysitting, and that's what I put together.

 

[teotwaki]

Yeah, that's why I said there was no science, Jim. There isn't any.

And most of what I had figured out for the DHP got thrown away after I sold that trailer. I never dreamed that I'd want all the info again.

But, what I did was, I discharged each power source down to 12.5 volts and then recharged them with the Sears charger 'til it said done. Apples to watermelon comparison.
The Jeep had an Optima as the primary battery, a Redtop, 160 amp alternator, and one DHP, the biggest they had.
The PW has the stock MOPAR AGM battery and the two BlueTop D31M batteries being maintained by the 180 amp alternator and much better wiring.

The DHP never charged up fully off the alternator. And the Optimas always do ---- again, lots and lots of caveats. I was never angry with the DHP --- I just wanted my White Unicorn, the set-up that wouldn't need babysitting, and that's what I put together.

Thank you Bill!! All of your information is more than scientific enough, especially as I know that you are thoughtful and methodical. I am interested in your test of drawing down the two different batteries to 12.5 volts and then recharging them and maybe DWH has some thoughts too. Do you recall which DHP model it was that you had? What are/were the specs on your Sears charger? i know you buy good stuff. :sombrero:

 

[Hilldweller]

The 2008 version of this charger: http://www.sears.com/diehard-microp...p-02871225000P?prdNo=6&blockNo=6&blockType=G6
and 2008 version of this battery: http://www.sears.com/diehard-platinum-marine-battery-group-size-31m-price/p-02850131000P?prdNo=20

 

[teotwaki]

The 2008 version of this charger: http://www.sears.com/diehard-microp...p-02871225000P?prdNo=6&blockNo=6&blockType=G6
and 2008 version of this battery: http://www.sears.com/diehard-platinum-marine-battery-group-size-31m-price/p-02850131000P?prdNo=20

Thanks for the links! It looks as if the battery is the equivilent of the Odyssey 31M-PC2150 with 2.1 milli-ohms of R-i and the charger can output up to 30 Amps for charging.

Maybe if the DHP battery was discharged often enough and low enough and only charged with the alternator (bulk phase) it became partially sulphated? This is that issue that is kicked around that an alternator cannot properly "charge" a battery because it does not provide all the charging phases even with long engine run times