Optima Battery Problems

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
The main reason we suggest “AGM-specific” charger settings is because many chargers on the market offer a “gel/AGM” setting, which we have found in many instances will not fully-charge non-gel batteries, because of the particular settings for gel batteries that you referenced. Regular flooded settings generally work fine on our batteries as well, but we do want folks to avoid settings that may not fully-charge their batteries.

Oh yea, a charger set to GEL won't get an AGM or FLA fully charged. That makes perfect sense.

But, I gotta call you on this one. I've seen a lot of battery chargers with one setting for FLA/AGM and a different setting for GEL...

...but I'm having a hard time trying to remember if I've ever seen one with settings that lump AGM and GEL together.

That there must be such a beast somewhere in the world I have no doubt, but I can't recall any right off the top of my head. Must be sort of rare...


Can your technical advisors provide specific examples of which chargers are so screwed up that they actually lump AGM and GEL together?
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
and maybe DWH has some thoughts too.

Well, it's a bit like voltage drop through wire. Most people do the math and figure they need some big wire like a #8 or whatever because the voltage drop is X.

The gotcha there, is that the voltage drop is going to be X at Y amperage of load. As the voltage of the battery rises, its resistance rises, and the amperage flow reduces, and so, as you approach the top of the charging cycle, the voltage drop *becomes less and less*.

Even with a small wire you'll eventually get the voltage of the battery up to equal whatever the voltage of the bus is. It'll just take longer because the resistance of the wire at Y amp flow will limit how many amps can get to the battery, by limiting the voltage available to push the amps - at first. But that limiting will eventually go away.


The Odysseys are made with a buttload of thin lead plates - what would normally be considered a "cranking battery" design. But they've got theirs setup so it also does just fine as a deep cycle as well. One advantage of their design, is that you can dump unreal amounts of amperage into that unit without hurting it. They even include C*4 charge rates in the specs in their tech manual.

That would be 400 AMPs of charge current, for a 100ah battery! 800 AMPs for a 200ah bank!
Recharge a 100ah battery in 15 minutes!

Hoo boy. I use the word 'unreal' with malice aforethought - sure the battery can handle it, but who in hell has that much charger available? A nuclear sub could probably get it done.


Optimas have a different plate design. They use a 'spiral wound' plate layout. That gives them a lower resistance, but doesn't allow such massive charge currents.


Each design, has its own resistance *curve*.

And battery resistance curves are basically the opposite of what voltage drop does - as you get less resistance through the wire as the battery approaches fully absorbed, you get more resistance through the battery.


So, to plot a charge curve, you have to take into account the variables of wire resistance decreasing, and battery resistance increasing, AND the voltage of the bus that is supplying the current to the batteries.


So, it makes perfect sense to me, that 150ah of spiral wound lead-acid could potentially absorb more amps faster than 100ah of thin plate lead-acid - when being charged by a constant voltage charger such as a 13.8v bus voltage, vehicle alternator/voltage regulator system, or a small (10a-25a) mains powered charger.

But then again, you could hook up a 3-stage 100a Xantrex Prosine to charge the Odyssey and pump it up quick, which would probably make the Optima pop like a balloon.

Hell, if you were nuts (or in the Navy), you could hook up TWO (or THREE or FOUR!) of the 100a Xantrex chargers to the Odyssey and not even void the warranty. Of course, you would certainly trip the 15a or 20a breaker on the house electrical panel if you tried it.
 
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Hilldweller

SE Expedition Society
More fun for dwh.

The genny that I toted along to recharge the DHP was the Honda 1000 that claimed 8 amps on 12v dc charge.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
More fun for dwh.

The genny that I toted along to recharge the DHP was the Honda 1000 that claimed 8 amps on 12v dc charge.

Yea that...

The thing is, I think most, if not all, of the generators which have a 12v outlet - the outlet voltage is unregulated. That's why you can use it to charge a battery - the battery regulates the voltage of the circuit - but not use it for supplying 12v loads (unless there is a battery in there to act as a buffer/regulator).

So the question then becomes: What is the highest voltage that outlet is capable of producing?

If it's capped at 12v, then it'll never get the battery fully charged.
If it isn't capped, then who knows what it could do?
Maybe just keep on raising the battery voltage to...what? 15v? 16v? Warp 9.9? Infinity? :)

I've never played with one, so I don't know the answer. My first two Honeywells had a 12v outlet, but didn't include a cable, so I never even checked it. My third Honeywell didn't have the 12v outlet. The little Champion I have now doesn't have a 12v outlet either.

I'd say, for the most part, that the 12v outlet on most generators would be fine for bringing up a dead battery good enough to start the truck, and probably not any bloody good for anything else.

Far better to use the generator to power up a decent mains powered charger.
 

teotwaki

Excelsior!
A nuclear sub could probably get it done..

o geez, I laughed out really loud on that one!


When I get a chance this week I'll check both of my Yamaha generators to see what their 12 volt output looks like and report back on the results.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
o geez, I laughed out really loud on that one!


When I get a chance this week I'll check both of my Yamaha generators to see what their 12 volt output looks like and report back on the results.

Sweet. Easy to check - what we're looking for is the same as a PV's Voc (voltage open circuit - no load).

What I'd like to know is if the voltage is capped, and if it isn't, then just how high of a voltage that thing could potentially take the battery.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
After sleeping on it...

As I recall, some (all?) of the Yamaha inverter generators do not have a switch for "Economy Mode" (auto RPM control based on load) like the Hondas do. Those Yammers are always in Eco mode.

For testing the (no load, Voc) 12v output of a Honda, I'd say turn off the eco mode and let it run at full RPM - but you might not be able to do that with the Yammer. So, you *might* have to put a 120v load on the Yammer to make it rev itself up, and then test the 12v output.

I dunno...could be wrong about that. Maybe it doesn't matter...maybe it does.
 
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teotwaki

Excelsior!
After sleeping on it...

As I recall, some (all?) of the Yamaha inverter generators do not have a switch for "Economy Mode" (auto RPM control based on load) like the Hondas do. Those Yammers are always in Eco mode.

For testing the (no load, Voc) 12v output of a Honda, I'd say turn off the eco mode and let it run at full RPM - but you might not be able to do that with the Yammer. So, you *might* have to put a 120v load on the Yammer to make it rev itself up, and then test the 12v output.

I dunno...could be wrong about that. Maybe it doesn't matter...maybe it does.

Both of my Yamahas have the eco mode ("Smart Throttle") switch. They are the inverter models, EV1000 with 8 Amps at 12 volts DC and the EF30000 with 12 Amps at 12 volts DC. I have some high wattage low ohmage resistors so I'll try both loaded and unloaded voltage measurements
 

teotwaki

Excelsior!
Do you have a really big cap too? Like the kids use on their booming sound systems?

Yes, more than one even. Do you think that the output of the generator will be that dirty?

My portion of the garage is packed with all sorts of strange things: broad band log periodic antennas, pieces of the crashed North American XB-70, electronics PCB components, mountain biking gear, mountain climbing gear, microwave frequency counters, etc. .....
 

Hilldweller

SE Expedition Society
Yes, more than one even. Do you think that the output of the generator will be that dirty?
No; quite the contrary. I think it will be pretty clean but we'll find the voltage to be less than what we'd want for charging an automotive battery. I'm predicting a nice flat line.
I was thinking of the cap as a battery substitute.

One of my EE geek friends here says he wants to test my Honda if we get a 'scope in here next week.
 

teotwaki

Excelsior!
No; quite the contrary. I think it will be pretty clean but we'll find the voltage to be less than what we'd want for charging an automotive battery. I'm predicting a nice flat line.
I was thinking of the cap as a battery substitute.

One of my EE geek friends here says he wants to test my Honda if we get a 'scope in here next week.

A big cap by itself is not good enough to simulate the battery. More like a parallel R/C in series with another Resistor might be closer from what I have read

EDIT: See figure 7 on page 18 http://digitalscholarship.unlv.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2249&context=thesesdissertations

Yes, I'd agree that the genset is likely to be a poor substitute for a charger.
 
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