Optima Battery Problems
- Thread starter TheJosh
- Start date
scrubber3
Not really here
Yeah, alternator boxes say the same thing. Technically, alternators do not have the capacity to "charge" a battery. Only to keep it charged and support vehicle electronics and ignition systems. Bad alternators cause bad batteries and bad batteries cause bad alternators.
Hilldweller
SE Expedition Society
That's your logic leap because the website alerts you to a fact about alternators?
teotwaki
Excelsior!
My logic is that message 61 has this:
Now we have to parse out exactly what "Charge" and "Maintain" mean to Optima
Jim, I understand you feel my sole purpose is to put a positive spin on all things Optima online, but my primary purpose is really to provide pro-active customer service and that started with the introduction of a series of battery Tech Tips YouTube videos that now have more than 75,000 views. My point about my participation on forums is that I am not online to socialize or do anything but deal with Optima-related content and my post count on most boards is a reflection of the work I do.
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Thank you for posting the length of one brand's warranty. I have done the research and know both the length and conditions of many battery warranties. I always encourage folks to research both the length of the warranty and the warranty terms associated with any battery they are considering purchasing. Our warranty terms and conditions can be found here.
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I understand the reasons why you don't want to swap your batteries and why you are dissatisfied with the performance of your Optima battery. At the end of the day, all batteries are just energy storage tanks. As I've stated in this thread, your Optima is fully-charged at about 13.0-13.2 volts, but the closest your's ever appears to get in the data you presented is 12.98 volts, right after you arrive at work and it looks like you drain it down to about 12.12 volts during the day. The electrical demands on your other battery are not as high and as a result, your vehicle's charging system is able to maintain the voltage in that battery through normal use. You didn't buy a RedTop to power your fridge, because you knew that battery was not designed for deep-cycle use. The electrical demands in deep-cycle applications such as your's, tend to be more demanding than the capability of many charging systems and as such, batteries used in those applications may need a more robust charging system or occasional charging with a battery charger. Whenever you do get around to replacing your Optima, if you don't use another one, I'd be interested in knowing how your replacement battery fares over it's lifespan in the identical configuration.
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As for our engineer's comments, I am only repeating his statements to me. I don't know that the lower readings of your charging system mean it is incapable of maintaining any of our batteries, just that they are lower than what he has seen in his vehicles and what he has been told are typical.
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One of the most-frustrating parts of my job is my inability to share not only production numbers, but warranty return rates and manufacturing defect rates. Many people within our industry have at least ballpark knowledge of those numbers (or specific numbers as they relate to their company), but those people might not include a guy who works behind a counter or someone who heard something from a buddy. Even though more than 99% of all automotive batteries end up being recycled, many manufacturers are frustrated by the number of good batteries that are mistakenly returned under warranty, by owners who simply deeply-discharged them.
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Some companies have dealt with this issue by adding specific language that voids the warranty on their batteries if they are discharged below a specific voltage threshold. Others have just bit the bullet and accepted the fact that an inordinate amount of batteries returned as bad” really aren't bad at all and dealing with this wasteful practice is just part of the cost of doing business. Optima took a different approach and decided to be pro-active in addressing this problem. They felt if they could be more pro-active in explaining to people what the voltage of a fully-charged battery should be, the point at which sulfation starts to impact battery performance and how to properly-maintain a battery, everyone in the industry would be better off.
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It's not an easy job, because it means sometimes I have to find a nice way to tell a guy who went through three batteries in three months (not including the original battery he replaced), that his batteries are probably not the reason he is having issues. I don't know if other manufacturers and brands aren't more pro-active on message boards because of a lack of resources or simply a fear of the unknown of how they might be received. I do know many other companies in the automotive aftermarket are aware of my activity and I am frequently asked by them about what I do and how I go about doing it. Unfortunately, those conversations don't go much further than the time commitment involved. I do think more companies will eventually follow suit, but it will take some time.
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TJ, since Jim makes a habit of selectively quoting other sites, I need to clarify the instructions he referenced from our site. For regular charging, we recommend 10 amps max and a voltage range of about 13.8-15.0 volts. The 15.6 volts Jim referenced was for a rapid recharge scenario and that voltage must be regulated, which doesn't sound like the case with your charger. I also had an '02 Camaro that I stored every winter and I always combed threads, looking for advice on how to properly maintain it in storage. The debate as to the value from a mechanical standpoint of periodically starting an engine while in storage always seemed to go back and forth. From the perspective of a battery manufacturer, I can tell you that periodically starting and idling a stored vehicle (even at higher RPMs) may not give the alternator enough time to replace the energy in the battery that was used during storage and starting. Keeping the battery maintained above 12.4 volts is really the key for long-term storage and I have heard good feedback on the CTEK models and other microprocessor-controlled chargers with conditioning/desulfation modes.
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HenryJ, I will ask around about both Scott Lentz and someone named Eric. The name & number of the NAPA rep would work well too. As you made mention of your pre-JCI Optima's, I cannot tell you why warranty terms were changed prior to JCI's ownership of Optima, but the free replacement warranty period on all of our batteries has only increased under JCI's ownership and is currently three years on YellowTops and RedTops.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
.
Thank you for posting the length of one brand's warranty. I have done the research and know both the length and conditions of many battery warranties. I always encourage folks to research both the length of the warranty and the warranty terms associated with any battery they are considering purchasing. Our warranty terms and conditions can be found here.
.
I understand the reasons why you don't want to swap your batteries and why you are dissatisfied with the performance of your Optima battery. At the end of the day, all batteries are just energy storage tanks. As I've stated in this thread, your Optima is fully-charged at about 13.0-13.2 volts, but the closest your's ever appears to get in the data you presented is 12.98 volts, right after you arrive at work and it looks like you drain it down to about 12.12 volts during the day. The electrical demands on your other battery are not as high and as a result, your vehicle's charging system is able to maintain the voltage in that battery through normal use. You didn't buy a RedTop to power your fridge, because you knew that battery was not designed for deep-cycle use. The electrical demands in deep-cycle applications such as your's, tend to be more demanding than the capability of many charging systems and as such, batteries used in those applications may need a more robust charging system or occasional charging with a battery charger. Whenever you do get around to replacing your Optima, if you don't use another one, I'd be interested in knowing how your replacement battery fares over it's lifespan in the identical configuration.
.
As for our engineer's comments, I am only repeating his statements to me. I don't know that the lower readings of your charging system mean it is incapable of maintaining any of our batteries, just that they are lower than what he has seen in his vehicles and what he has been told are typical.
.
One of the most-frustrating parts of my job is my inability to share not only production numbers, but warranty return rates and manufacturing defect rates. Many people within our industry have at least ballpark knowledge of those numbers (or specific numbers as they relate to their company), but those people might not include a guy who works behind a counter or someone who heard something from a buddy. Even though more than 99% of all automotive batteries end up being recycled, many manufacturers are frustrated by the number of good batteries that are mistakenly returned under warranty, by owners who simply deeply-discharged them.
.
Some companies have dealt with this issue by adding specific language that voids the warranty on their batteries if they are discharged below a specific voltage threshold. Others have just bit the bullet and accepted the fact that an inordinate amount of batteries returned as bad” really aren't bad at all and dealing with this wasteful practice is just part of the cost of doing business. Optima took a different approach and decided to be pro-active in addressing this problem. They felt if they could be more pro-active in explaining to people what the voltage of a fully-charged battery should be, the point at which sulfation starts to impact battery performance and how to properly-maintain a battery, everyone in the industry would be better off.
.
It's not an easy job, because it means sometimes I have to find a nice way to tell a guy who went through three batteries in three months (not including the original battery he replaced), that his batteries are probably not the reason he is having issues. I don't know if other manufacturers and brands aren't more pro-active on message boards because of a lack of resources or simply a fear of the unknown of how they might be received. I do know many other companies in the automotive aftermarket are aware of my activity and I am frequently asked by them about what I do and how I go about doing it. Unfortunately, those conversations don't go much further than the time commitment involved. I do think more companies will eventually follow suit, but it will take some time.
.
TJ, since Jim makes a habit of selectively quoting other sites, I need to clarify the instructions he referenced from our site. For regular charging, we recommend 10 amps max and a voltage range of about 13.8-15.0 volts. The 15.6 volts Jim referenced was for a rapid recharge scenario and that voltage must be regulated, which doesn't sound like the case with your charger. I also had an '02 Camaro that I stored every winter and I always combed threads, looking for advice on how to properly maintain it in storage. The debate as to the value from a mechanical standpoint of periodically starting an engine while in storage always seemed to go back and forth. From the perspective of a battery manufacturer, I can tell you that periodically starting and idling a stored vehicle (even at higher RPMs) may not give the alternator enough time to replace the energy in the battery that was used during storage and starting. Keeping the battery maintained above 12.4 volts is really the key for long-term storage and I have heard good feedback on the CTEK models and other microprocessor-controlled chargers with conditioning/desulfation modes.
.
HenryJ, I will ask around about both Scott Lentz and someone named Eric. The name & number of the NAPA rep would work well too. As you made mention of your pre-JCI Optima's, I cannot tell you why warranty terms were changed prior to JCI's ownership of Optima, but the free replacement warranty period on all of our batteries has only increased under JCI's ownership and is currently three years on YellowTops and RedTops.
Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
78Bronco
Explorer
My logic is based off my experience. Every battery I have purchased new and installed into my vehicle has operated without any issue far exceeding the warranty period because the vehicles charging system was able to maintain the battery and provide adequate charging. I have never had to maintain a battery with a separate stand alone device.
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teotwaki
Excelsior!
Fine, and I am not in this to socialize with you but I am definitely not getting answers because you are very selective about what you respond to. Videos are not the only way to get attention. My Blog has more than 13,000 views and I can post there about my unhappiness with Optima batteries.
It was only one because that is the other battery that I have and it is a much longer warranty than Optima's. Please share your research that will prove 48 months to be a bad thing. If you already know so much where is your published study?
I'm glad that you finally get it as I am tired of repeating why the suggestion of swapping them is just Optima's tactic to pull the spotlight off of their battery's performance. It is also significant that Optima is really saying that an Optima deep cycle battery absolutely must have an external AGM specific charger in order for the Optima battery to properly operate in its deep cycle role. As I have stated in this thread, the sooner Optima issues me a full refund the sooner I will switch to another brand and send you the results. Last, when a starter like mine kicks in it pulls 200 amps so at just two starts in a day it has presented a demand of 5 kilowatts to the starting battery. Year after year it does this and my Sears DieHard is still operating because the OEM charging system successfully replaces the demands of the starter. The Optima battery presents less than a 0.5 kilowatt demand in one day but I have to weekly or biweekly charge the Optima with an external battery charger? Why?
The problem is that in many instances Optima Jim has said that the Optima deep cycle battery should do fine on an OEM charging system but now the unknown "engineer" is referencing unspecified personal cars as well as second or third hand hearsay on other unspecified vehicles. Not helpful at all. Now on my own I've found and quoted AND linked the Optima website statement that says that OEM Alternators are not enough to take care of an Optima battery.
I really don't care about the folks who are confused and return good batteries, just include the numbers in the total rate. If you are so frustrated then give your Boss copies of all of my posts and show him that Optima should be the first to be honest about their numbers. Otherwise all of us assume you've got something to hide. Likewise, if my battery is fine and the reality is that it absolutely has to have a baby session with an AGM specific charger once every two weeks then fine. Just stop blowing smoke about Optima deep cycles being fine in a OEM charging environment when they never ever will be. I'd rather the danged thing last me more than a year with a little extra effort since I know that Optima will never give me a full refund.
How about a video showing Optima's defect rates?
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You are still in the job so the pay and other activities must be worth it.
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Oh please, Jim. That is casting aspersions or even outright slander. I generally give the link to wherever things came from including your posts on this and other forums. Quoting an entire page of Optima website-speak is a waste of bandwidth here when you can just go read it for yourself. I am highlighting the main point. When I quote Jerry at Camburg in full you just ignore those statements. So don't play it both ways. But unlike you, I will refute your nonsense with facts
My posts:
#49 provided a link
#56 full quote
#64 full quote of Optima's FAQ 13
#69 full quote of battery article
#89 full quote of Jerry at Camburgs post about why he literally dumped Optima batteries
#113 Sears web site warranty at their web site quoted in full, 48months full replacement and 100 prorated. That simple. I also quoted in full what ProFormance said. I partially quoted Jerry at Camburg because I fully quoted him in my post #89 that Optima Jim avoided responding to.
#119 provided the Optima link
#120 provided the Optima link
This is where Optima Jim can apologize for his lack of facts..
HenryJ
Expedition Leader
:hehe: Kinda figured you wouldn't be interested in the number of the dealer that dropped the Optima line
You can call Jim from NAPA at 1-541-889-6425
scrubber3
Not really here
Gonna have to pitch in again and hopefully help everyone out.
For those who have had good experiences with Optima, that's great because so have I.
For those that didn't, I am sure it left a bad taste in your mouth. I understand because I have been there and yes it does suck when something doesn't work out for the purpose you bought it for. Especially when it is a 200 battery. I am sure it nullifies to old adage "you get what you pay for". You'd think for such an expensive battery it would perform longer and better, but is it really worth all this negative energy? I mean, too be honest it is a little disturbing to me that someone would go through such an extensive and negative write-up for having a battery failure. It's just a bit extreme IMOHO. Not to say you shouldn't be angry, but you should really try to just let it go before that aggression hurts you or someone else. I really wouldn't want to be remembered as that guy who was known for being so bitter towards a battery company that he let it define his character. There are much better things in life than this. Get a product that suits you and move on.
I hope this helps and allows some of you folks to find peace in this matter. I have been in some really messed up and FUBAR situations while in the Army and I can tell you that if all I had to worry about was a 200 dollar battery failing on me, I would be very happy... Even so, I have learned to let go of the things that can affect my life in negative ways and live my life the way I want instead of letting those messed up things affect me and bring me down. I am sure that Jim will probably work with you in some way to make the situation better if you give him the chance. Smile and thank god you live in a free country and know where your next meal is coming.
Cheers!
JW
For those who have had good experiences with Optima, that's great because so have I.
For those that didn't, I am sure it left a bad taste in your mouth. I understand because I have been there and yes it does suck when something doesn't work out for the purpose you bought it for. Especially when it is a 200 battery. I am sure it nullifies to old adage "you get what you pay for". You'd think for such an expensive battery it would perform longer and better, but is it really worth all this negative energy? I mean, too be honest it is a little disturbing to me that someone would go through such an extensive and negative write-up for having a battery failure. It's just a bit extreme IMOHO. Not to say you shouldn't be angry, but you should really try to just let it go before that aggression hurts you or someone else. I really wouldn't want to be remembered as that guy who was known for being so bitter towards a battery company that he let it define his character. There are much better things in life than this. Get a product that suits you and move on.
I hope this helps and allows some of you folks to find peace in this matter. I have been in some really messed up and FUBAR situations while in the Army and I can tell you that if all I had to worry about was a 200 dollar battery failing on me, I would be very happy...
Even so, I have learned to let go of the things that can affect my life in negative ways and live my life the way I want instead of letting those messed up things affect me and bring me down. I am sure that Jim will probably work with you in some way to make the situation better if you give him the chance. Smile and thank god you live in a free country and know where your next meal is coming.Cheers!
JW
teotwaki
Excelsior!
Gonna have to pitch in again and hopefully help everyone out.
For those who have had good experiences with Optima, that's great because so have I.
For those that didn't, I am sure it left a bad taste in your mouth. I understand because I have been there and yes it does suck when something doesn't work out for the purpose you bought it for. Especially when it is a 200 battery. I am sure it nullifies to old adage "you get what you pay for". You'd think for such an expensive battery it would perform longer and better, but is it really worth all this negative energy? I mean, too be honest it is a little disturbing to me that someone would go through such an extensive and negative write-up for having a battery failure. It's just a bit extreme IMOHO. Not to say you shouldn't be angry, but you should really try to just let it go before that aggression hurts you or someone else. I really wouldn't want to be remembered as that guy who was known for being so bitter towards a battery company that he let it define his character. There are much better things in life than this. Get a product that suits you and move on.
I hope this helps and allows some of you folks to find peace in this matter. I have been in some really messed up and FUBAR situations while in the Army and I can tell you that if all I had to worry about was a 200 dollar battery failing on me, I would be very happy...
Cheers!
JW
Thanks for the positive vibes and good intentions. Don't read too much into my posts though and especially OJ doing anything but type more words. If you type in "Optima Jim" in Google you'll see that 85% of the responses in other forums are Xerox copies of what you read here. There will be no refund coming on the battery. :ylsmoke: So I've tried to capture enough measurements to expose the smoke and mirrors of this product and how it requires additional charging on a regular basis. Along the way if Optima loses some customers I won't lose any sleep over that. Compared to jumping across a 20 foot wide bergschrund (crack in the ice) at 18,000 feet on Denali pass, this is nothing to be excited about. :elkgrin:
brussum
Adventurer
Jim,
The problem is that you're doing it in such a vitriolic manner that it works against you. Parsing words and attacking every sentence OJ types doesn't accomplish anything except to make you look petty. Sure, there are some on this forum that cheer you on, but I know I'm not the only one shaking my head. I don't know you or anything about you, but your postings don't leave me with a favorable opinion of you. I know you don't care about that because you have your cause to expose JCI and Optima and that's all that matters. It's clear that Optima isn't going to give you a refund and there's likely very little that OJ can do about that. Buy a replacement battery and move on. Life's too short to become this obsessed with a car battery.
The problem is that you're doing it in such a vitriolic manner that it works against you. Parsing words and attacking every sentence OJ types doesn't accomplish anything except to make you look petty. Sure, there are some on this forum that cheer you on, but I know I'm not the only one shaking my head. I don't know you or anything about you, but your postings don't leave me with a favorable opinion of you. I know you don't care about that because you have your cause to expose JCI and Optima and that's all that matters. It's clear that Optima isn't going to give you a refund and there's likely very little that OJ can do about that. Buy a replacement battery and move on. Life's too short to become this obsessed with a car battery.
Hilldweller
SE Expedition Society
Yeah.
Both Jims are my cyber-friends.
Count to 20...
BTW, after 4 days in the woods for Country Fried Weekend, my Optimas had only dicharged to 12.8v and were happily making light and ice-cold food...
Both Jims are my cyber-friends.
Count to 20...
BTW, after 4 days in the woods for Country Fried Weekend, my Optimas had only dicharged to 12.8v and were happily making light and ice-cold food...
teotwaki
Excelsior!
I'm not worried about how it appears. If I believed all that I saw here then I would count one particular Mod as an ogre but I really know that he is just a guy doing what he thinks best. We just totally disagree about it and I'll continue to disagree with him.
Same with O-J. He is paid to not give an inch. If you check out the other forums his tactic is to wear the problem down with non-promises and happy notes about the "Wall Of Power". Me buying a replacement battery and moving on is his only goal. Problem solved because too many people give in and switch brands. What is in our favor is Google and other search engines that will continue to help people avoid products with poor customer service.
So if all you read is this stuff to form an opinion about me that method is being a little bit lazy but that is your choice. I don't do this for the cheers or the jeers. It is the only way to put a chip in the facade of a faceless mega battery empire that sells deficient products to overlanders.
Believe me, this takes 1/1,000,000,000th of my time and energy that are spent on much more enjoyable endeavors. :elkgrin:
PS: I realized that I was ill-mannered and did not thank you for taking the time to respond with your insights. I may strongly disagree but I still do read what is said and it may be that I have to adjust the level of vitrol. If I adjust upwards then you'll really regret speaking up LOL!!!
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teotwaki
Excelsior!
Fried chicken? mmmmmmmmm..... :drool:
Hilldweller
SE Expedition Society
Fried turkey, haggis & brie puffs, fried Oreos, queso dip, cornbread, moonshine, single malt, fried Twinkies, waffles, french fries, trout, etc.
http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...try-Fried-Weekend-2012-sign-up-and-discussion