Optima Battery Problems

teotwaki

Excelsior!
Wow. Much ado about nothing. Optima was better off buying their dead battery back right from post #1.

OJ offers thousands of posts but never takes a battery back in a public forum. His Johnson Controls/Optima Corp job description must tightly control everything that he does including admitting that any particular battery was bad.
 

teotwaki

Excelsior!
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Jim, the issue you initially described back in January of 2012 involved an Optima battery that you posted a picture of, which included the date November 16, 2010 written on the side (as well as a 10/10 date code sticker). At that time, you also mentioned that your other battery was “months older,” although that battery is either dated March 14th or August 14, 2009, which if you had just replaced the Optima again in 2011, would be more than two years older, but you're welcome to use months.

The biggest problem with your replies are the inaccuracies and misinterpretations that you propagate because you refuse to provide an original quote in the body of your reply. For instance, you doubted the quality of my wiring so I provided a picture that illustrated the neat installation with military grade clamps and individual circuit breakers. Now you are posting additional incorrect conclusions based on the date on that particular battery in the photo. To set your mind at ease here is a detailed list of all of my Optima batteries:

  1. Yellow Top Installed Jan 2007.
  2. Second Optima was a Yellow Top, Installed March 2009, (CostCo)
  3. Third Optima was a Blue Top, Installed Nov 2010 (CostCo)
  4. Fourth Optima was a Blue Top, Installed Nov 2011
  5. Fifth Optima is a warranteed Blue Top, Installed March 2012

If someone prematurely replaces any battery (Optima or any other brand) once, I would say it is well within the realm of possibility that there could be an issue with the battery, especially if everything else in the system seems to be in order and the previous battery didn't have premature issues as well. When a battery is prematurely replaced for a second time, the odds of the issue being traced back to a defect in the both batteries drops significantly. I would hope by the time a third consecutive premature battery replacement occurs, that a closer look is given to the wiring, charging system and demands of the application, which subsequently happened over several pages in this thread (thank you dwh).

And the wiring has been photographed, measured and data posted and nothing is wrong with my truck. Conclusion: bad batteries from Optima.

Even though you are currently on your fifth battery, I was really encouraged back on the posts around February 11th (#198), when you and dwh got into issues I first suggested five pages earlier in post #142, after I had a conversation with one of my friends at an alternator manufacturer and he suggested the possibility that your auxiliary battery was not getting a full charge in your current setup. In subsequent posts, dwh made it clear he will forget more about chargers and charging systems in his lifetime, than I will ever know, but I really appreciate his willingness to delve into the subject with you..

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. DWH is smart and adds valuable information and has no particular bias because he is not paid to be here and stomp out Optima fires. What has really come out of all of this is that an Optima deep cycle battery really needs special handling such as the Ctek charger that Michael installed. It can provide a full voltage and current charge cycle regardless of what the alternator voltage is sitting at. Ergo, an Optima deep cycle battery that is actually used in a deep cycle role is not compatible with an ordinary car alternator (that is performing properly). Even the Optima website specifies that an alternator is merely good for maintaining charge and not good for recharging Optima deep cycle batteries.

see here: http://www.optimabatteries.com/product_support/charging_agmbattery.php

While you did indicate you would accept a refund for your battery, we only offer warranty replacements for our batteries, not refunds. Back on February 1st, I posted, “From everything you've described about your battery, if you returned it to your retailer for warranty service and they fully-recharged it and tested it, they'd probably find nothing wrong with it and couldn't offer you a refund either.” Up until that point and well beyond, it wasn't that your Optima wasn't functioning, but that it wasn't meeting your expectations.

Except that I did return the BAD Optima battery under the warranty process and in addition to the Optima distributor testing it as BAD, the Optima battery dealer tested it as BAD and even Autozone tested it as BAD. Or maybe you forgot to read that post, eh? Post #289 right here:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/70580-Optima-Battery-Problems/page29

I didn't see any mention of you seeking a warranty replacement, until you posted a test slip that was dated at the end of April, which is nearly a month after you indicated you had replaced the battery. I know you mentioned several times that you bought a battery in November of 2011, but I want to make sure that if you bought one in November of 2010 as well, that the battery you received in November of 2011 was not bought, but replaced under warranty

So I post all sorts of data that points to a bad battery and you as the Optima "ecare manager" make no offer to help me to test and replace the battery (even via a West Coast Optima Rep). What you did post was a series of messages that are virtual copies of the corporate approved messages that you post on every other forum where someone complains about Optima quality.

On April 27, 2012 (#251), the picture you posted of the test slip indicated a YellowTop was bad and you posted that “the dealer that I bought it through told me that the Optima distributor would fight against replacing it. He said they had a "huge" charger that dumped a "ton" of amps into batteries to bring them alive long enough to kick them back to the customer. He showed me half a dozen batteries that customers had brought back more than once.”
.
I actually went back and tried to piece together where the YellowTop entered the picture after you first posted a picture of a BlueTop with the 2010 dates back in January of 2012, but I then figured their tester probably only had settings for YellowTop or RedTop. Seeing the serial number on the test slip would've helped with the timeline, but you didn't want me to see that and intentionally whited it out.

See, this is where you are confused and you then confuse other folks because you refuse to quote the original messages. My list of batteries and dates in this message should help you.

Regardless, if your battery tests bad and your dealer indicated a distributor would fight against replacing it and would attempt to dump “a ton” of amps into batteries, we want to reach out to that distributor to make sure they are properly-testing batteries and warrantying those that legitimately need replacement, even though your's had already been replaced under warranty

You are free to send an email out to all West Coast dealers and tell them whatever corporate policy is supposed to be. Stop trying to make an issue of something that is unrelated to the fact that FOUR different tests showed the battery to be BAD: Mine, Autozone, Dealer & Distributor.

I see you posted a scientific poll a couple of weeks ago, which offers voters seven different opportunities to vote for dead batteries and only three options for functioning batteries. I'm not going to skew the results of your poll by voting four times for the batteries I'm currently using (or the two spares that are waiting for a home), although I see your votes currently account for 1/7 of the total and you didn't even give yourself (and potentially others) an option to vote for the battery you are currently using.

Thanks for calling it "scientific"! Hilldweller has pointed out some flaws but I am unable to edit the poll so it is what it is.

The real problem is your refusal to release any data, "scientific" or otherwise. Therefore you cannot throw stones at what I tried to accomplish. Given that your paycheck comes from Optima you hardly qualify for the poll.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/80005-Optima-Battery-Poll-(NO-DISCUSSION)
 

HenryJ

Expedition Leader
I think the poll represents what I have seen pretty well. About an 80% failure rate in the new batteries and 30% in the old batteries. That sort of data syncs with my experiences. Prior to Johnson Controls purchase failures were rare and the batteries lived almost forever. After that something happened and we went one hundred eighty degrees. Now failures seem to be the norm and a good one a rarity.
 

teotwaki

Excelsior!
I think the poll represents what I have seen pretty well. About an 80% failure rate in the new batteries and 30% in the old batteries. That sort of data syncs with my experiences. Prior to Johnson Controls purchase failures were rare and the batteries lived almost forever. After that something happened and we went one hundred eighty degrees. Now failures seem to be the norm and a good one a rarity.

I've run so many searches across so many forums and seen similar trends but it is tough to "scientifically" collect and vet such data. Frankly I don't have a large company paying my salary to hang out on all of those Optima threads. Speaking of which, the standard response that is coming from OJ is ".... I have inquired as to whether I was allowed to share our warranty return rate information. Unfortunately no one in the industry releases those numbers, including us." as stated by OJ on numerous forums such as at http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=589071&page=6

What was interesting is that on that Jalopy forum he used the same lame ploy to try to eliminate (ban) a member named Zman who was too much of a thorn in OJ's side.

Message #144 http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=589071&page=8

OJ: "zman, if you think I have nothing better to do than start conversations with myself, I'll make a deal with you. The moderators or admins should be able to see the IP address of everyone who posts in this thread. If John and I have even remotely similar IP addresses, they can ban both of us. If that is not the case, they ban you."

Here on the Portal: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/70580-Optima-Battery-Problems/page16

Compare page 16 in this thread, message #156 where OJ tried a ploy to get me banned from the Portal because he knew he controlled all of the purported email "evidence":

".....If you are convinced the “nameless faceless Optima engineer” doesn't exist, I'll make a deal with you. You pick the ExpeditionPortal moderator of your choice. I will forward him my e-mail exchanges with that engineer. If I fail to do that, he can ban me and my IP address from this site forever and you'll never have to deal with me again. If the engineer and e-mails exist, then you agree to be banned from this site forever."


What sort of vendor pays somebody to troll through forums and try to get ordinary members banned?
 

teotwaki

Excelsior!
Optima batteries are said to provide double the life span than other general batteries, but they do need to be maintained to provide the output that you really expect as promised. Firstly the battery gets effected due to overcharging and might get permanently damaged, you do need to clean the battery terminals to maintain the life span, make sure there are no leaks and any erosion, and do need to check the battery for voltage after every few months.

Good ownership habits to apply to all batteries! :victory:
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
What sort of vendor pays somebody to troll through forums and try to get ordinary members banned?

In both of those you quoted, it doesn't look to me like he was "trying to get ordinary members banned". It looks more like he was calling someone's bluff.

I'm guessing you didn't take him up on his challenge? What about zman? (Who, from the context of the quote (I didn't bother to follow the link), was apparently accusing OJ of sock puppeting.)
 

teotwaki

Excelsior!
In both of those you quoted, it doesn't look to me like he was "trying to get ordinary members banned". It looks more like he was calling someone's bluff.

I'm guessing you didn't take him up on his challenge? What about zman? (Who, from the context of the quote (I didn't bother to follow the link), was apparently accusing OJ of sock puppeting.)

It is part of a pattern that is evident if you see enough of his other canned OJ responses on other forums. Not so much sock puppetting as it is being a paid shill. Besides, it is so easy to go create an email account and fake an IP address in order to chime in with sympathetic newbie votes. I had one of those in another topic that I traced back far enough to see it was a lame ploy. As a regular forum member who has hands-on knowledge I give you or Hilldweller more consideration than I do OJ or some one-post wonder.

Why would I even consider his so called "challenge"?? Think about it. He controls all of the information flow from Optima, can delete, alter or fake emails at will without any oversight. In previous posts I showed his quotes that give opposing and inconsistent information from the nameless Optima "engineer".
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Well sure, he's a paid shill (sorry, OJ, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em and it is what it is).

But, if someone on the ol' InformationSuperInterwebsHighwayNet accuses someone else of wrongdoing, such as sock puppeting or lying about a conversation with an engineer, then I think even a paid shill has the right to call their bluff and issue a challenge.

In both your quotes, he offered to let the forum mods handle it.

I don't see that as "trying to get ordinary members banned" - I see it as defending against an attack. I mean, would he have issued such a challenge to zman if zman hadn't first accused him of sock puppeting? It was a self-defense move, not a first strike move.


Do you honestly believe, that OJ would have submitted forged emails to the mods here at ExPo?
Sure, he *could*, but is he so dishonest that he actually *would*?
I haven't seen anything here to make me believe that he's actually that shady and underhanded.
 

teotwaki

Excelsior!
Oh my goodness.... There is an "Optima Bill" on the loose! LOL.

Same corporate approved script too! :elkgrin:

Hi XXXX,

First, I am sorry you had battery issues...... (SNIP)-------


---This is a problem industry-wide and other manufacturers have actually added language to their warranties that specifically voids batteries discharged below specific voltage levels. We didn't do that with our warranty, but we did make this YouTube video, which explains how to I hope this helps----SNIP----

-----------SNIP----- Today, we are producing our batteries in a state of the art, new facility and Quality Control is better than ever.----SNIP----


----SNIP--- the quality of our batteries has always been excellent and the batteries we are manufacturing today (and we do manufacture all of our own batteries) are the best we have ever made ---SNIP----

------SNIP----- An internet myth is that we have experienced a quality control issue in the past year, two years, ten years, etc. That is simply not true. We strive to improve our products all the time and are happy to say our products are the best they have ever been.-----SNIP-----


Bill Howell
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.





Two eCare mangers with overhead must be $400k a year which would pay for refunding the purchases of 2,000 bad Optimas and eliminate a lot of bad press on numerous forums...
 
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teotwaki

Excelsior!
Well sure, he's a paid shill (sorry, OJ, but I calls 'em like I sees 'em and it is what it is).

But, if someone on the ol' InformationSuperInterwebsHighwayNet accuses someone else of wrongdoing, such as sock puppeting or lying about a conversation with an engineer, then I think even a paid shill has the right to call their bluff and issue a challenge.

In both your quotes, he offered to let the forum mods handle it.

I don't see that as "trying to get ordinary members banned" - I see it as defending against an attack. I mean, would he have issued such a challenge to zman if zman hadn't first accused him of sock puppeting? It was a self-defense move, not a first strike move.

Do you honestly believe, that OJ would have submitted forged emails to the mods here at ExPo?
Sure, he *could*, but is he so dishonest that he actually *would*?
I haven't seen anything here to make me believe that he's actually that shady and underhanded.

If OJ is a paid shill then his personal feelings don't count and being "attacked" is exactly the role of a paid "eCare" lightning rod. He is the public face of a corporate Goliath and he never once apologized for his public slams at me so I have no sympathy for his supposedly hurt feelings. And yes, I do believe he would submit documents that would give him an unfair advantage because he is paid to kill off negative threads about Optima batteries. He was way over the top by asking for a ban when he simply could have just posted the emails with redacted info as necessary.

As I have said before, I give a thousand times more thought and respect to what you or Hilldweller might say because I view your posts as honest, insightful and even entertaining (including the <evil grin> jokes). :)
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Maybe he's OJ's apprentice.


Still, in the overall scheme of things, Internet forums are small potatoes. I mean, they sell Optimas at AutoZone. For every dissatisfied customer who spouts off on the Internet, there are probably 5,000 (or who knows...maybe 50,000 or 500,000) people who are happy with their purchase.

People who are happy with a product rarely bother to post about it, so on the Internet, the ratio of complaints to praises is always heavily biased toward complaints.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
If OJ is a paid shill then his personal feelings don't count and being "attacked" is exactly the role of a paid "eCare" lightning rod.

I don't agree. He's got just as much right to be offended at being called a liar as anyone else. Personally, I'd rather deal with someone who's real than some patent leather corporate robot.


He was way over the top by asking for a ban when he simply could have just posted the emails with redacted info as necessary.

Was he "asking for a ban"? That's not what I saw in the quotes. What I saw was "issuing a challenge".

"Asking for a ban" would probably be done in PM to a mod. I doubt that would fly with the mods around here (I mean, these guys aren't Mad Banners. They haven't banned me yet - nor even issued a warning - when I've flagrantly broken the rules and gotten political. (Did I just say that out loud? :yikes: ))

C'mon...to say he was "asking for a ban" is a (deliberate?) mis-characterization.
 

UK4X4

Expedition Leader
I have not read the whole thread- its pretty huge !

as a person presently looking for a solar deep cycle battery not quite the same but similar - I have researched quite a bit- currently leaning towards golf cart batts

Seemingly AGM batteries prefer a particular charging sequence which is diferent to wet lead acid batts

- a car alternator does not provide that

In the boating world when you use AGM batteries you add a charge controller thats suited to an AGM battery between the alt and the batt

From my research it seems fundamentaly that an AGM requires a diferent charging scenario than other batteries

the average car is set up for wet lead acid batts-

So to me selling an AGM battery for an auto aplication is wrong from the get go........

ie you need to add a specific AGM charger between the alt and the battery in order to correctly charge an AGM

But then you can spend days on the internet sifting battery opinions and I'm no expert !

http://www.morganscloud.com/2010/09/18/charging-batteries-alternator/


Solar and mains battery chargers for example have diferent setting for each battery type to insure long life and correct charging,

I'm yet to see a car alternator have diferent settings

hence I don't think Optima or any AGM battery is suitable for a vehicular install, unless of course all the solar and mains charger manufacturers don't understand, or you add the specific AGM battery charger to the system
 
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dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Seemingly AGM batteries prefer a particular charging sequence which is diferent to wet lead acid batts

That's a myth - which I personally busted...somewhere...in this unholy mother of a thread.

The difference between an AGM battery and an FLA (flooded lead-acid) battery is that one has fiberglass fabric between the lead plates. There's no magic nor mystery involved. You got your lead. You got your electrolyte. The fiberglass between the plates doesn't change anything other than keeping the stuff from sloshing, and keeping the electrolyte from stratifying into layers.

The charging routine for one, works for the other. In general, 3-stage battery chargers do a 14.4v/14.2v/13.6v bulk/absorb/float and that is, in general, the specified charge routine for the vast majority of both AGM and FLA batteries.


There are of course, a few exceptions. Here and there you'll find a manufacturer who specifies a slightly different routine for some particular battery.

But lead-acid batteries are not precise electronic components. They are sloppy chemistry devices. Sort of the St. Bernards of the electronics world. If you get any precision out of that goofy thing, then you got lucky.

So, even those few batteries which do have a slightly different routine specified, are going to be 99% okay on the same 14.4v/14.2v/13.6v routine that every other battery uses.


(GEL batteries *are* different, in that they do require a different routine. Specifically, slightly lower voltages on the stages - generally, 14.2v/13.8v/13.2v. And, unlike AGM or FLA, GELs are quite sensitive to going over the specified limits.)


There is a guy on the Internet, "HandyBob" who promotes the idea that it is better to take a (non-sealed) flooded battery to a higher voltage, to get a more complete charge. He thinks 14.8v is proper. I totally agree with him. Iota battery chargers with their IQ/4 controller chip will do exactly that, so I suppose they agree too.

The main drawback, is that you may have to add water to the battery more frequently.

And you don't want to over-voltage any *sealed* battery (whether FLA or AGM) too much, because you might blow the pop-off valve and lose some water that you simply *cannot* replace.



- a car alternator does not provide that

In the boating world when you use AGM batteries you add a charge controller thats suited to an AGM battery between the alt and the batt

Or, a special voltage regulator, which will control the alternator in such a way as to provide a multi-stage charge. But the multi-stage charge will benefit either AGMs or FLAs equally well.

However, a typical automotive/marine alternator/voltage regulator system *will* eventually get a battery - either FLA or AGM - charged. It will hold the voltage of the "12v bus" at around 13.8v and eventually, the battery will absorb as much as it can - at 13.8v. Of course, if you could get the bus voltage up to 14.4v, then the battery (again, either FLA or AGM) will be more fully charged.

But the alternator system will get the battery (again, either FLA or AGM) to around 90% charged, which is normally good enough for an engine cranking battery, but for a deep cycle battery could take a very long time...


(And, any charge controller "suited to an AGM battery" is going to work equally well on an FLA battery - and vice versa.)


From my research it seems fundamentaly that an AGM requires a diferent charging scenario than other batteries

Nope.

Most AGMs and FLAs require essentially the same charging routine. Again, there are a few exceptions. In fact, some AGMs specify a different charge routine than other AGMs.

This is one of the reasons why the phrase, "AGM specific" is marketing BS. If you have a charger with the perfect specs for AGM battery A, then what do you do when AGM battery B has different specs? They are both AGM after all...

IF *all* AGM batteries had exactly the same specs, and those specs were significantly different than the specs for FLAs, then "AGM specific" might not be the meaningless phrase that it is now.


But again, there *are* "GEL specific" chargers.


the average car is set up for wet lead acid batts-

No, the average car is setup for "cranking" batteries. They aren't setup to properly charge a "deep cycle" battery. *Any* deep cycle battery - FLA or AGM.


So to me selling an AGM battery for an auto aplication is wrong from the get go........

Not at all. Except for the fiberglass between the plates, they are the same as a flooded battery. What works for one, works for the other.



ie you need to add a specific AGM charger between the alt and the battery in order to correctly charge an AGM

Myth. Busted. :D


Solar and mains battery chargers for example have diferent setting for each battery type to insure long life and correct charging,

Some do. Most don't. They *all* have different settings for GELs though.

For example, a Morningstar SunSaver charge controller has a dip switch. One position is "AGM/FLA" (14.4/14.2v/13.6v) and the other position is "GEL" (14.2v/13.8v/13.2v).

A Samlex mains charger has exactly the same switch, except when on GEL it does the bulk voltage to 14.1v instead of 14.2v.


Again, for charging purposes, AGM and FLA are the same. They are both sloppy chemical devices and not very particular about what you feed them.

GELs are like women - they *are* particular.


I'm yet to see a car alternator have diferent settings

Alternators don't have settings. They are just generating devices controlled (rapidly switched on and off) by the voltage regulator. In the old days, voltage regulators could be opened up and a screw turned to adjust them. Not anymore - not since electronic voltage regulators.

But there are special regulators. Pretty common in marine use.


hence I don't think Optima or any AGM battery is suitable for a vehicular install, unless of course all the solar and mains charger manufacturers don't understand, or you add the specific AGM battery charger to the system

There is no such thing as AGM specific. And, as I've just noted, Morningstar (the largest solar charge controller manufacturer) charge controllers treat AGMs and FLAs as the same. Because they are. Samlex, and Iota (two of the larger mains charger manufacturers) do the same.

Marketing experts would like you to believe there are special chargers for AGMs, but there aren't. Even Optima's new Optima Branded mains charger says, "AGM specific" in the hype, but when you read the fine print, you see it says, "and also works for any other battery, such as flooded".



Now, having said all that...

Each and every battery manufacturer has their own specs for each and every battery. Most recommend 14.4v bulk, but some recommend 14.5v, or 14.6v. Some manufacturers recommend 14.6v for *this* battery, and 14.4v for *that* battery.


Which is mostly irrelevant. You got your lead plates sitting in an acid/water bath. You take it up to around "14 and a half" volts, and you are in the ballpark.

And "in the ballpark" is as close as you will ever get with such a sloppy goofy apparatus.
 

redthies

Renaissance Redneck
Good grief! Somebody pleeeeease delete this whole mess! Orrrrr, let's let the same angry consumer fill 35 more pages with tales of electrical woe.:mixed-smiley-030:
 

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