Bear safety in RTT's and soft sided campers/tents

[offthebeatenpath]

BS. Peppers spray is not very effective in a predatory attack. You wouldn't stand a chance with an attacking Grizzly. Its kill or be killed in that rare situation. Best to not camp or hike in Grizzly territory. A 12 ga slug will easily drop a bear though. I've done it hunting Blacks in CO. A good bow works too if you have range. A good automatic 45 has value too, as few bears can continue with 10-15 rounds in them. Spraying pepper at them is only useful for deterring curious small bears, not a Grizzly on the hunt. Also, sprays have a short life...after a year or so, they just trickle, not spray so don't rely on them.

First of all, it is EXTREMELY RARE for anyone to be caught in the situation of a TRUE predatory attack from a griz. The vast majority of attacks occur because of a mother defending her cubs. Bear spray is recommended in these situations. The other advantage to bear spray is that it is equally effective in just about anyone's hands. You can be shaking in your boots and pissing your pants and the bear spray will still do it's job.

The same is not true with a handgun. As mentioned before, you've got to nail the bear in the brain cavity with a round while he's running at you. Good luck with that. Also keep in mind that a bear can run about as fast as a quarter horse, which most people don't know. If you're fortunate, you'll have time for 3-4 shots with your handgun, not 10-15. Most people that I know think that a .45 is a joke for a bear round- too slow to penetrate a bear's thick fur, hide, and then skull.

I worked at a local outdoor retailer for awhile selling a lot of bear spray to Yellowstone tourists. I know some of the facts. Bear spray has about a 4 year shelf life from date of manufacture, not one year. It is the propellant that looses some oomph, not the pepper. It is actually ground up cayenne pepper, and essentially causes a sensory overload for the bear, because of it's excellent sense of smell. It will not have the EXACT same effect on you, should you inhale it. I will rely on bear spray, much sooner than just a handgun, though I often carry both.

[offthebeatenpath]

I'd also like to link in another thread which contains some good info as well:

Bears and Overlanding

Here's a bit I posted on that last night:

However, I did want to respond to this question by Mr.Leary and not leave it hanging out in cyberspace....which was: "Will it do me any good to mark my territory by pissing around my campsite like I do in coyote country?"

Bears (when I say bears I mean both Black and Griz) are not territorial in the same way that many other predators or mammals are. Without going into tremendous depth, I'm sure we can all recall pictures or videos we've seen of multiple grizzlies feeding on salmon in Alaskan rivers. That's just a small snapshot. They tend to co-exist much better with each other than we do with them. They even consistently interact with each other in smaller areas. They will cover a lot of miles, but will interact closely if there is a good food source to be shared- even if it's just one elk carcass.

Also- much of the reason sow bears are so protective of their cubs is due to the fact that when a sow has cubs, they will stay with her for possibly 3-4 years, black bears usually 2-3. So, sow bears only go into heat after their cubs move on and begin their lives away from mama. Well, apparently male bears know this and will attempt to kill of the cubs simply to be able to mate with the sows and reproduce his line. Animal cruelty at it's finest. The largest cause of death for grizzly bear cubs is male grizzlies.

That's all I've got to say, hopefully it adds a bit more info to the discussion.

Oh, and FYI, if any of y'all are in or around Bozeman, MT, the REI here hosts an excellent lecture on "Bears and the Backcountry" about once a month from May through November with a local bear behavioral specialist. I highly recommend it. Dates for the lectures can be found with a bit of searching on REI's website under local store events.

[Rubicon_Fan]

My father and I hunt moose up north country (BC/Yukon) and have had few encounters with Grizzlies. I have been charged twice, when I accidentally came near its prey (IMHO pepper spray wouldn't have stopped that angry guy) few shotgun shots in his direction made him run away. Another case was when I was fly fishing Skeena river, angry grizz cub came running at me (I was in waders in the water) and again I had my trusty mossberg with pistol grip and short barrel on my back. Could pepper spray help? Maybe. But with strong winds in my face I wouldn't have felt comfortable spraying. However we never issues sleeping in the RTT or had bears come to our camp.. We make sure that all of our food waste is either burnt or safely packed away.

[willywaxer]

First of all, it is EXTREMELY RARE for anyone to be caught in the situation of a TRUE predatory attack from a griz. The vast majority of attacks occur because of a mother defending her cubs. Bear spray is recommended in these situations. The other advantage to bear spray is that it is equally effective in just about anyone's hands. You can be shaking in your boots and pissing your pants and the bear spray will still do it's job.

The same is not true with a handgun. As mentioned before, you've got to nail the bear in the brain cavity with a round while he's running at you. Good luck with that. Also keep in mind that a bear can run about as fast as a quarter horse, which most people don't know. If you're fortunate, you'll have time for 3-4 shots with your handgun, not 10-15. Most people that I know think that a .45 is a joke for a bear round- too slow to penetrate a bear's thick fur, hide, and then skull.

I worked at a local outdoor retailer for awhile selling a lot of bear spray to Yellowstone tourists. I know some of the facts. Bear spray has about a 4 year shelf life from date of manufacture, not one year. It is the propellant that looses some oomph, not the pepper. It is actually ground up cayenne pepper, and essentially causes a sensory overload for the bear, because of it's excellent sense of smell. It will not have the EXACT same effect on you, should you inhale it. I will rely on bear spray, much sooner than just a handgun, though I often carry both.

Yes, it is rare, that's what I said, but not uncommon enough not to be careful, especially around Grizzlys which are not accustomed to human contact. Yellowstone bears are like circus bears, not even comparable. Don't give me this mother/cub crap..a male Grizzly will hunt you down if they are hungry, make no mistake. I base my deterrent opinions on living in Colorado high country with a seasonal black bear problem. Last year there were three local attacks on campers, one on a teenage boy who was bitten. I've personally legally taken 8 black bears while hunting. I've never taken a Grizzly, nor tried to. I fish and hike in bear country throughout the year and have been close to Grizzlys and Polars on trips up North. I never go into bear country without my S&W 44 mag. Not the ideal weapon, but easy to carry and effective if used properly. I've shot a large black bear with it before and know exactly what it does. Multiple shots are preferred and I can get enough off in a few seconds to do a really good job, believe me. Folks around here say a warning shot is the most effective deterrent they know of. Spray is OK for most Black bear encounters, but keep your pepper spray in Grizzly country and I'll see your remains on the trail some day. I wonder how many of those people who refer to the 44mag as a "joke" of a piece have actually ever used one on a bear? Why do you carry one then? I have a buddy who killed a black with one shot from a 357 mag. Also, check your spray after one year and compare the range to a fresh one...they don't just suddenly go bad after 4 years...they continually lose propellant.

Here's a useful article on bear loads for those considering handguns:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/protection_field.htm

[offthebeatenpath]

I wonder how many of those people who refer to the 44mag as a "joke" of a piece have actually ever used one on a bear?
Here's a useful article on bear loads for those considering handguns:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/protection_field.htm

Most people that I know think that a .45 is a joke for a bear round- too slow to penetrate a bear's thick fur, hide, and then skull.

If you'll notice, your Chuck Hawks article doesn't even bother mentioning a .45, and I didn't mention the .44. I own a Glock 20, the 10mm. The FMJ rounds I use for carrying in the woods are 200g FMJ rounds which travel at about 1300fps. The reason I chose the 10mm are this: Fully loaded with 15 rounds, it is lighter than a S&W .44 large frame also fully loaded. 15 rounds over 6 rounds is simple math. Also, both my wife and I can shoot it comfortably, instead of it being hard to control.

And if I understand your post, you're basing your opinions about Grizzly's on hunting Black bears?

If I'm only carrying one thing, I'll carry bear spray. Why do I carry a handgun? Because sometimes I feel like it.


Getting back to the original posting......
The vast majority of people will never even see a Griz in the back country because they are making enough noise that the bears will not bother them. The only reason a bear considers human food a food source is if they've been exposed to it before.

In my opinion, the two best ways to get yourself a bear encounter are this:
1- Camp in a tent/trailer campground with a known bear problem and leave food out.
2- Sneak around in the woods during hunting season wearing camo and being quiet.

So if you want to avoid bears, my advice is to avoid either of those two scenarios.

[JKJenn]

Sort of bizarre that this has turned into a gun vs. bear spray thread. I am very pro-2nd amendment and don't begrudge you carrying guns, but it isn't for me for a number of reasons.

The original question had to do with safety of RTT's in bear country. I become interested in this thread because I would like to do some camping in the Monongehela National Forest, where bear incidents have grown more common. From what I gather, if I keep a clean area, store all food and garbage in my JK, I should be fine in my RTT in black bear country. Also sounds like, although unlikely that I would need it, not a bad idea to have bear spray handy when in bear country. Now, the gun could in handy if I came across the Utah mountain man who is on the lam.

Also seems like hitting the panic button on your car keys isn't a bad idea. I also like the air horn idea. Seems like a cheap solution for different kinds of intruders.

[Flounder]

Spray is OK for most Black bear encounters, but keep your pepper spray in Grizzly country and I'll see your remains on the trail some day. l]

I lived in southeast AK for many years and managed one of the largest outdoor guiding services in the state. Every year we'd order several dozen cans of bear spray and use quite a good number of them during the year. Mostly spraying bears (huge coasty browns) that got too close to camp areas or even the random bear standing in my yard. Our 30+ guides always carried and used spray. While only two events in my memory included charging or bluff-charging bears, in both cases the spray worked as advertised. I've only sprayed a few brownies and it's impressive to see the effects. Would I keep a can in my RTT, sure.

[66LV]

If you plan on driving to Alaska Canadian Customs will not normally allow you to take a firearm into Canada. Pepper spray you can buy once you are in AK. Bells and whistles sound too natural to be a deterrent to grizzly bears. The human voice is unique to them so your loud voice is the best deterrent when camping and hiking. I would be most worried about bears if you were camping in an area close to where people live and bears associate humans with food. At Denali NP you should be fine if you take standard precautions when camping. I camped in my Maggiolina last summer in AK and I worried mostly about mosquitos.

[Corey]

http://www.amazon.com/Frontiersman-B...0276113&sr=8-1

Going to order this today.
Only black bears where I go.
The spray and my Glock 21sf will give me some piece of mind.

[Vince1]

Hmm. Spray vs gun. At first it makes little sense to carry both as you'll only have time to use one or the other. A rifle is your best friend when it comes to field protection, just ask any African guide, but large caliber ones are cumbersome to carry. So maybe the best bet is to carry spray, but have a properly loaded handgun in case it fails, or in case the wind is going the wrong way. Precautionary measures can make sure neither is ever used. Separate yourself from what they are after, your food. Dine at one site, move and sleep at another. You can get most bears out of your campsite by banging pots and pans together. I think a gunshot would have the same effect. Honestly though, I don't believe a RTT offers any more protection than a ground tent. Bears climb atop cars all the time around here, and pry doors open just to get a bag of chips. They especially know what coolers look like, and the rewards inside them, so never keep one in your Jeep. Find a site far away and hang it up. Ive had a bear break into my home twice, once while i was in the next room. On the latter occasion, it quickly scattered as soon as I turned on the light and sceamed, but I was amazed at the damage it caused in a matter of seconds. He pulled the entire door off the refrigerator and mangled it and broke french doors like they were toothpicks. I don't know what I would have done had he charged me. I would love to know if any of the tasers now in use have any effect on a bear, but until then, I think a shotgun with slug shell is a good thing to have while camping in Grizzly country, and not a bad thing to keep around the house, as I now do. Look at the bright side about camping....at least you don't have to worry about sharks!