My last conversation with Shane CES was that he wanted the old fuel pump to tear apart before we went any further. He did, however, coat the inside of his last fuel tank with some mystery stuff his radiator shop buddies recommended, but that tank, lessee, has probably been driving on the roads for about 6days only, so jury is out on if that will work or not. He actually was in process of coating that tank before I called him from the middle of the desert, so he had recognized the rust issue prior to my breakdown. Shane's advice was to simply replace the faulty fuel pump with a new one and drive on it for a while to see if it happened again. Once I saw the inside of my tank, there was no question I was ever going to drive on that thing again, in that rusted condition, and thus I made the decision to remove it and replace it with a new factory tank like OEM. Cha-ching triple ouch. Shane and I have discussed a stainless tank to replace mine, or maybe coating mine, but until he receives my rusty care package via UPS in a few days, I will withhold judgement until Shane has a chance to respond. He's a good guy, he's stated he will work something out with me. Exactly what that means, well, no clue at the moment.
Custom 35 gallon gas tank for '09 Tacoma
- Thread starter cwvandy
- Start date
sctracker, now THAT'S pretty cool! The CES tanks have three front-to-back baffles, but no side-to-side baffles, and probably the baffling wasn't my issue (as originally thought) once I saw the rust damage. You actually couldn't add the baffling material you linked to inside the CES tank as the access is only into one of the three separate cells. Photo enclosed of the inside of the main cell, looking toward back of tank into darkness of second (middle) cell. Triangular cut-outs are where fuel flows from cell to cell. Now if the whole thing were one big tank, those insert thingies you found would be awesome!
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Booosted Supra
Observer
That is good to hear that he is going to work with you and also awesome to hear that he caught onto it prior and is working on making the tank better. I cant think of the name of the coating the motorcycle builders use, I'll have to ask my friends brother who builds custom choppers/tanks/etc. Best of luck I have read this entire thread, I wish I could find something like this for my 2nd gen 4Runner, or even an old Downy Aux tank for sale somewhere unless someone knows who bought the patten for it. I know NWOR has most of Downys pattens but I hear nothing but horror stories about them guys unfortantely
Yeah I figured there was probably no way to add in some baffling for those of you who already purchased the tank but for future CES customers this might be the trick. It should help with the fuel going up and down for those of us who like to go through dirt whoops at good speed. I feel kinda bad being the guy who turned you to CES in the first place Scott. Hope it all works out for you!
I was the contributor who mentioned the tank seen in Namibia. Unlike the tank manufactured in Bend, it was all stainless steel. And I know of two Tacomas in the states that Hilux tanks were installed in with minor modifications. So far (2 years) no rust and no issues. Of course, having helped install one (me) is very different than pontificating about a topic he knows nothing about (TangoBlue).
Now mind you I'm just following this and I may not have the complete picture.....but from my experience dealing w/ friends and buddies of friends when it comes to modifications....it always fascinates me how quick some folks jump to blaming the mod. I had a buddy who's clutch failed shortly after a lift, , drive-line mods, larger tires and better shocks. He immediately spent 1000's to restore the truck to stock swearing that the modifications had caused this and he would be changing his clutch every few 1000 miles! After all his friends trucks lasted normal amounts of times.....he had his parts checked and found out his pressure plate and pilot bearing were both at fault from a poor install....to this day I'm sure he catches crap from old buds .
Sometimes it is the mod but most times its just one stupid thing that caused everything else.
I would hope that folks wait to see what really happened.....the vendor seems to be responsible and very into making things right......Rare these days!
Just an opinion from past experience.
Sometimes it is the mod but most times its just one stupid thing that caused everything else.
I would hope that folks wait to see what really happened.....the vendor seems to be responsible and very into making things right......Rare these days!
Just an opinion from past experience.
Hey Steve, before you install that OZ tank bring it over to my house so we can get side-by-side photos of the OZ tank next to the CES tank for comparison and posting here. I think it would really be valuable for others to see, and after install I'll snap a shot of your stock tank and photoshop it in for a three-tank side-by-side comparison.
Brandon, hey dude! Nice to hear from ya! Glad you girl and dog are still amongst us! I still have faith that the CES SuperTanker, with a few more modifications of course, could prove to be a nice solution for those looking for major extended range. Stock tank is around 20gal, OZ tank is around 30gal, CES tank is around 40gal, so there is still a nice market range going here. Obvious major mess-up with the rust issue. And the inside of my tank shows impact marks from the bottom of the stock fuel pump sump (very outermost white plastic shell) repeatedly impacting the bottom inside of the CES tank. Still have to talk to the TRD guys to see if the springs on the stock fuel pump assy are for suspension (not meant to impact the bottom but free-float in fuel) or compression (meant to press the sump against the bottom of the tank and absorb any impacts or flexing of the tank bottom). In any case, I still thank you for turning me on to CES in the first place, no worries! (dealer gave me the TRD SC for $2k parts, put the rest on VISA, couldn't pass it up).
Chris (tank #1), if you still monitor this thread, chime in here! Your truck was on Shane's rack recently and he was going to yank your tank for inspection in light of the problems I was having, what did he find if anything? You've had this tank longer than any of us, being SuperTanker #1 pioneer trail blazer for all of us to follow, your feedback would be invaluable!
Brandon, hey dude! Nice to hear from ya! Glad you girl and dog are still amongst us! I still have faith that the CES SuperTanker, with a few more modifications of course, could prove to be a nice solution for those looking for major extended range. Stock tank is around 20gal, OZ tank is around 30gal, CES tank is around 40gal, so there is still a nice market range going here. Obvious major mess-up with the rust issue. And the inside of my tank shows impact marks from the bottom of the stock fuel pump sump (very outermost white plastic shell) repeatedly impacting the bottom inside of the CES tank. Still have to talk to the TRD guys to see if the springs on the stock fuel pump assy are for suspension (not meant to impact the bottom but free-float in fuel) or compression (meant to press the sump against the bottom of the tank and absorb any impacts or flexing of the tank bottom). In any case, I still thank you for turning me on to CES in the first place, no worries! (dealer gave me the TRD SC for $2k parts, put the rest on VISA, couldn't pass it up).
Chris (tank #1), if you still monitor this thread, chime in here! Your truck was on Shane's rack recently and he was going to yank your tank for inspection in light of the problems I was having, what did he find if anything? You've had this tank longer than any of us, being SuperTanker #1 pioneer trail blazer for all of us to follow, your feedback would be invaluable!
Booosted Supra
Observer
It maybe a major mess up but it is trial and error after all like I said in an earlier post. Its not like this product was product tested and beaten to death like any big name products out there. This was a shot in the dark fabrication and work in progress, you and everyone else are the product testers. Atleast Shane you and everyone involved are kicking feedback back and fourth and working with each other to kick this off. Seems like you are all on the track of something big.
What a deal on the blower! Thats awesome. If you guys are having trouble with the fuel pickup hitting the bottom of the tank you could try mounting a lower profile pickup that hangs out somewhere else in the tank like these guys http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/pickups.html . These also offer the option of having multiple pickups throughout the tank. Other people probably aren't having this problem Scott but they may in the future.
I hate to be a kill joy here and unlike others who have posted on this topic, I don't claim to be an expert on gas tank manufacturing. But I do know quite a bit about vehicle liability and the insurance industry. Those of you that have this tank already installed and those contemplating a purchase of one -- have you really considered the liability you have incurred? Here we have a product produced by a company with no expertise in the field that has never been tested in any way. It is now public knowledge that one of the tanks has failed -- there is no reason to assume the rest of the tanks don't have the same defect. If the tank rusts through and fuel drips on a hot exhaust system, the results would be catastrophic. The fact that the company made the tank out of material that is subject to corrosion, given all the materials available today, should be a wake up call. In the real world, every tank would be recalled and inspected.
I can guarantee that no automotive insurance company on the planet would insure a vehicle if it knew about this modification, especially now with the failure being public. Your state has the right to revoke a vehicle's title if it deems the vehicle to be unsafe and operating on public roads. Go ahead and have the discussion with your insurance company (not your agent) and see what the response is.
We all assume some risk with modifications we make, no question. Even buying and installing a tank from a reputable manufacturer is not without some risk. But in almost 20 years of working with liability and the auto insurance business, this is one of the best examples I have seen of people getting behind an idea without seeing the costs. As Colin Powell famously said: "Experts often possess more data than judgement".
I can guarantee that no automotive insurance company on the planet would insure a vehicle if it knew about this modification, especially now with the failure being public. Your state has the right to revoke a vehicle's title if it deems the vehicle to be unsafe and operating on public roads. Go ahead and have the discussion with your insurance company (not your agent) and see what the response is.
We all assume some risk with modifications we make, no question. Even buying and installing a tank from a reputable manufacturer is not without some risk. But in almost 20 years of working with liability and the auto insurance business, this is one of the best examples I have seen of people getting behind an idea without seeing the costs. As Colin Powell famously said: "Experts often possess more data than judgement".
yeah, well, uh..... ******** droop for sure on this one. head hanging in shame. yes dad, we may have messed up.... seemed like a great idea at the time? Johnny got one, I thought it was ok if I got one too? But he jumped off the bridge first, I thought it was safe?
While not at all wanting to start a fight here, I do value your input, definitely and positively. My receipt clearly has the standard "off road use only" stamp plastered across all pages, and I knowingly and regularly purchase "off road use only" parts for my vehicle and gleefully drive out the private parking lot on to public California roads every day (my blazing lexan melting headlight bulbs come to immediate mind.....). But yes, there is a clear and definite difference between brighter headlights and dripping fuel tanks, obviously. Thus I immediately and without question yanked that tank, for clear safety concerns. To be fair, this is fully R&D experimentation, and no, that does not give us the right to endanger other drivers on the road with our (unsafe) choices. And to be fair, Shane is not a member of this forum and everything stated here is simply hearsay and customer feedback, and he has been very responsive and concerned to my knowledge and personal experience. For Shane, Oregon fuels and ODOT are different from my experiences here in NorCal and CaDOT, as they are in Arizona, New Mexico, and Colorado, where other SuperTankers have found their home. (yes, I kinda adopted the SuperTanker name, who was it... HornyToad that said it first? I dunno, I kinda like the name.)
I personally support innovation whenever and wherever I can, and take full responsibility for knowingly trying "something new". Fact is, DOT won't let any of us carry larger capacity built-in fuel tanks because they don't want the bigger boom. In California, the standard 5gal external fuel can is a thing of the past, we're now limited to 3gal, uh, legally and technically that is. And as for insurance, I keep my insurance agent abreast of any and all modifications I make, just to keep the value of my truck updated (well over $60k so far with purchase and mods), and upon hearing of the CES tank, he simply shook his head and told me to haul the burnt carcass "off-road" somewhere before I called him. Yes, there are costs involved when getting behind an idea, any idea. I feel it comes down to personal responsibility and personal integrity, and I fully stand behind Shane and CES so far, recognizing that we're all learning here, just like most of us on these types of forums, from each other's insight, experience, experimentation, and input.
kmacafee, thank you for your input again, however much of a necessarily negative killjoy it may have been. Your 20 years leads you to have knowledge that others may not have, so your input is a good thing. Thank you. Keep it real, keep it positive, and for goodness sakes, let's not forget we all bomb around in the dirt to have fun. Sometimes we fall down, it is true, but hey, how do you know where your limits are if you don't exceed them once in awhile? Kinda like to exceed them safely enough to drive home, mind you... Just sayin. So far, no one hurt, thankfully, and Shane has been calling the other 9 owners as updates develop, so we're all in this together.
Every farm truck in my local area drives around with a couple hundred gallons of diesel in a big steel drum or welded square tank in the back of their pickups, on and off road, with no issues, and have been doing so for decades (well, close to a century probably). The issue at hand, as I identify it, is the hydrophilic nature of alcohol and our switch to ethanol fuels. It's causing us to change the way we do things, and it's a learning curve. Shane considered manufacturing this tank out of stainless steel, but was concerned that a $3k tank was expensive enough, no one would dream of paying $5k for it (about the cost of a stainless version according to my local welder, yeee-ouchie). And aluminum wouldn't work due to stresses imparted by the mounting configuration. I have yet to lay hands on this aluminized OZ tank, but seeing my OEM tank made of apparent plastic is still giving me cause to pause, as it were.
Keep the dialog coming, keep the input positive, and keep having fun. I have a Toy. If I don't break my Toy once in awhile, I'm not playing hard enough.
Scot
I don't think anybody here claimed to be an expert in gas tanks. Also on the many many 4x4s I've worked on with old gas tanks (pre 90's). Almost all of them had some serious amount of rust inside the tank. Its a really common thing because as Scott mentioned before water in your gas tank wasn't such a big deal up until ethanol hit the market. The only reason they go more unaffected is because they sit higher in the tank and are less finiky due to them being an older system. The other thing to keep in mind is that gas tanks with un-pressurized liquid gasoline don't blow up. Ever. Would you get a fire if you're gas tank leaked out onto your exhaust? Maybe. Another thing to keep in mind is that they place all of the exhaust components on the other side of the truck so once again the fuel coming out of an un-pressurized tank wouldn't be a safety issue in that sense. Also if you read here http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=393.67 there isnt much in there that isn't covered in this tank because it retains ALL of the factory equipment meaning that it still conforms to DOT rules. Nowhere is corrosion resistance a thought because almost all steel tanks will corrode with time.
Now I do agree that the tanks should have either been made out of something with better corrosion resistance or hot coated with something to begin with. For such a high ticket item its a pretty big oversite but the manufacture is working on it.
Scott, the TRD blower kits are notorious for running a little lean, yielding high exhaust gas temperatures. I'm hoping Toyota installed more than just the blower because if your running stock injectors (especially after the potential rust) I would run an pyrometer to monitor this. I ran an autometer one on my last truck and it helped a lot with keeping the engine happy. AFR/boost gauge is also a good idea. Also I talked with my buddy who is quite the hotrod builder about this product here http://www.por15.com/FUEL-TANK-REPAIR-KIT/productinfo/FTRK/ . Apparently it works like a charm. Even removes all the old rust gunk. I have experience with other POR-15 products and I couldn't be any happier. If your interested let me know, you will probably need more than one kit but I can get you some pretty good pricing on it.
I agree with much of what everyone is saying here. I have to disrespectfully disagree with the premise that, since the tank retains all of the factory equipment, it still conforms to DOT specs. The fact of the matter is that the tank itself is not built to DOT standards. Its most likely a grey area but in a court of law, I believe it would be found to not be compliant.
And while many farmers and ranchers routinely carry fuel in whatever container is lying around, the fuel to power the truck comes from the manufacturers installed tank. Were on of those auxiliary tanks to cause a fire or explosion, the insurance company covering the loss would most likely not cover the damage (depending on the state). And of course, diesel fuel is generally far safer to transport than gasoline.
I second the recommendation of the POR 15 product. I used to play with British cars and they all suffered from gas tank corrosion but the POR stuff really works well.
Again, sorry to have to point this all out. As I said before, all mods carry some risk. I love the innovation and creativity it took to get to this point -- hopefully it will have a good outcome.
Cheers