Thoughts on PowerPlant for possible Project

pulltilbroke

Adventurer
Well, actually a 4B can be a pretty much bolt in deal as they were in Chevy bread trucks and were bolted to a TH400. There are tons of factory Cummins block plates so you can bolt dang near any transmission imaginable to it.

And Parts wise anything that will bolt to a 6B will bolt to a 4B.

I love threads like this cause tons of great info is revealed.

Here is a few pics for you to show how much room would be available it your K5 had a 4B. This truck is runnin a P-pump 4B with an atlas road ranger auxilary OD unit between the motor and the SM465. This truck is also intercooled.

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dorton

#rockcreekoverland
Thanks for all the replies. I did some cruising on 4bt swaps forum last night. There are some pretty interesting setups out there.

I dropped by diesel depot and saw this http://dieseldepot.com/used_engines.html. That seems to be very reasonable pricing.

Pulltilbroke, thanks for the photos

Thanks again for all the info guys.
 

chilliwak

Expedition Leader
What ever you do Dorton, do it right. There are lots of helpful people here, so you know you have all the support you need. Just remember to POST SOME PICS!:)
 

dorton

#rockcreekoverland
I will probably start, by just getting it back road worthy as it is. There isn't any major rush to this.

I will have to sit down and figure the Pros/Cons of Gasoline Vs. Diesel before I ever pull the trigger one way or the other.

I'm also kinda torn on this as my project. I work for a toyota dealer, and feel its almost sacrilegious to think about building a chevrolet :) Maybe I'll put a toyota in it( let me go ahead and get ready for cuss words). :Wow1:
 

1leglance

2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
I would completely agree with getting the rig road worthy as your first step.
This is where I am at on my conversion so I can enjoy the truck while getting all my parts bought, rebuilt, collected. That way when the time comes I will be able to dive in & get it done.
Here in Phoenix the price spread between diesel & gas is getting narrower and that helps me justify the conversion as I am looking at only a 15% increase in fuel cost with a 50% increase in mpg/range.

Since you are looking to swap an engine no matter what and since you want to get the rig on the road you have plenty of time to either shop for a donor rig (then scrap what you don't use) or a great engine deal.

This guy has a replacement crossmember that folks are really liking for conversions. I plan to get one myself
http://diy4x.com/cart/index.php?route=product/product&path=34&product_id=80

And here is a tip from my buddy Nick (Nobin here & mosesburb on the 67-72 board) who put a Cummins in his 72 burb ....spend the couple hundred dollars on getting your frame aligned before the conversion so thing line up better. These rigs take a beating over the years and it will make life much better.
 

Larry

Bigassgas Explorer
I'm also kinda torn on this as my project. I work for a toyota dealer, and feel its almost sacrilegious to think about building a chevrolet :) Maybe I'll put a toyota in it( let me go ahead and get ready for cuss words). :Wow1:

I can relate to that. I have GM ties but just bought a 1992 4Runner as a toy project.

Whichever way you go with your engine swap, gas vs. diesel, it will sure beat an old carbureted 307 with breaker point ignition that is for sure. Hey, maybe a Hino diesel would be a neat power plant for the K5?
 

Buliwyf

Viking with a Hammer
Some of the equipment I service has Hino diesels. They're rubbish. They only exist because they're cheap. Generac uses them, Kohler has a few Hino gas conversions out there. They're all heavy, weak, and unreliable.

They're not as bad as the Isuzu diesels. Especially the ones that esentially have a Bosche style piston pump, like old big John Deeres and Macks, but the pump body is actually the block. All the components, rack, injector pistons, etc; all just bolt into the block. The injector piston racks love to seize up.

A John Deere 4039 or 6068 would be a fun swap. But bigger and as heavy as a Cummins and likely even more expensive.
 

Larry

Bigassgas Explorer
Hehe, I was just throwing Hino out there as a conversation piece due to the Toyota ties. Dorton, in all seriousness, if you chose to go the route of a late model GM engine I can trade you tutoring on late model GM swaps for your tutoring me on the ways of Toyota being I just got a 4Runner last week. :)

Expo is the only online community outside of diesel specific forums that I know of where the vocal masses drink from the diesel fountain. I work for a truck and diesel engine manufacturer. We build diesel engines from 2.0L world market engines to 15L over-the-road Class 8 diesel engines and I wouldn’t own a single one of them. Not even our old beloved 6.9L or 7.3L engines or my old ties with the 6.2/6.5L. Diesels stink, they leak, they’re distractingly loud, and they’re heavy, gutless until the turbo spools up and require way too much maintenance. The fuel costs more and the maintenance costs more. In my opinion, there is no real advantage to a diesel unless you are pulling full GVWR 80% of the time, driving 80,000 miles a year or plan on traveling outside of the Continental USA with your rig. The only real immediate advantage of a diesel is RANGE. Yes, you can obtain higher MPG with a diesel but when you really put a pencil to it the money you save on fuel economy either cost you a fortune at inception for a diesel swap or comes back to get you later when the diesel shoots craps. Really, where in the good ole USA can your average outdoor adventurer go where range is that big of deal that a person cannot pack enough gasoline with them in order to get back to the next fuel stop!? Not many places, if any!....not even in Canyonlands or Death Valley. I run a 425HP 8.1L and haven’t ran out of gas yet! Only the very few true Overlanders on this site really benefit from diesel power. The rest of us normal folks that hold fulltime jobs that are weekend warriors with the occasional weeklong adventure can get by with gas engines and still be money a head even at 10 MPG running a 300+ HP gas engine.

Another thing with diesels is when diesels break they break big time and take big money to fix. Look at all of these later model diesel guys with Duramax and Powerjoke engines….even the beloved Cummins. While their friends that bought gas engines in the same model of truck only have to pay $100 for spark plugs, wires and fuel filter at 100,000 miles the diesel guys are buying $4000 worth of injectors if they pay a dealer to make the repairs. A late model V8 gas engine is more than able to deliver 300,000 miles of durable service backed by easy 300HP with 12 to 15 MPG in light duty truck. There are reasons why major US fleets are moving away from diesel engines back to gasoline. Start listening to the brown trucks that deliver packages to your house and place of business. The vast majority of the 2007 and later model trucks are now powered by GM gas 4.8 and 6.0L gas engines, not rattily leaky smoky old diesels anymore. Diesels had a place and time….that time has passed.

There are those that are scared to death of computer controls on late model gas engines. I have to tell you that computer control issues on late model GM engines that would leave you on foot are as rare as a Toyota vehicle with a legitimate sudden acceleration problem. It just doesn’t happen! And if someone is worried, there are only about 5 parts to carry with you if it makes someone feel more secure knowing they have the staples to get home.

Opinions are like bellybuttons, everybody has one. The chocolate vs. vanilla, Coke vs. Pepsi, Bud vs. Coors and the Diesel vs. Gas debate will go on forever. I am just voicing my opinion based on experience in the vehicle manufacturing industry and personal dusty trail travel.
 

1leglance

2007 Expedition Trophy Champion, Overland Certifie
Great write up Larry and glad to see you giving voice to your experience.
Funny thing is you sound just like my wife's boss. She works at a diesel engine shop and the owner has been working on every kind of diesel engine for over 25yrs....and when I brought him my 6.2 to check & machine he said there ins't a diesel engine he would own!

And I will admit that even though I am part way into my diesel swap I still go back & forth on keeping my carbed 350/Turbo400/NP205 setup....super simple to work on, can find parts anywhere in the world (just about) and cheap. I am currently getting 10mpg without trying to tune it or switching to TBI and if I swapped out to a factory 40gal tank I would have at least a 400 mile range.

Real world numbers coming back from real 6.2 turbo diesel owners tell me I should get at least 18mpg and I am not having to pay for my engine/turbo/injection pump rebuilds so my diesel swap is coming in much cheaper than most would be looking at. If I had to pay full price I don't think I would do the swap.

Great info on this site and good to hear everyones thoughts
 

Rot Box

Explorer
In my opinion, there is no real advantage to a diesel unless you are pulling full GVWR 80% of the time, driving 80,000 miles a year or plan on traveling outside of the Continental USA with your rig. The only real immediate advantage of a diesel is RANGE. Yes, you can obtain higher MPG with a diesel but when you really put a pencil to it the money you save on fuel economy either cost you a fortune at inception for a diesel swap or comes back to get you later when the diesel shoots craps. Really, where in the good ole USA can your average outdoor adventurer go where range is that big of deal that a person cannot pack enough gasoline with them in order to get back to the next fuel stop!? Not many places, if any!....not even in Canyonlands or Death Valley.

Another thing with diesels is when diesels break they break big time and take big money to fix. Look at all of these later model diesel guys with Duramax and Powerjoke engines….even the beloved Cummins. While their friends that bought gas engines in the same model of truck only have to pay $100 for spark plugs, wires and fuel filter at 100,000 miles the diesel guys are buying $4000 worth of injectors if they pay a dealer to make the repairs.


:Wow1: jeepers mister tell us how ya really feel haha! :coffeedrink: Actually I totally agree with you and respect your opinion 100%. For the most part I think diesel is a fad and so is "EXPO'ing" wow did I say that out loud?!. Just like rice rockets and rock crawling- it will evolve into something else just give it time.

The only diesel trucks that appeal to me haven't been made for well over a decade. Look at the miles racked up on Pulltilbroke's truck (400k +) or even my IDI (just about to roll over 250k) and they are still going just as strong as ever--I don't think these old diesels owe us a dime. Fuel range aside to me its the simplicity of mechanical injection, Its the power for pulling, its the thousands of fallen soldiers in the scrap yards that provide me with cheap parts, Its the beast under the hood that sings the song of the Sirens to me everywhere we go--and the aroma (or stink as some call it) is second only to my fresh cup of coffee in the morning :jump:

I cannot wrap my head around owning a new diesel pickup let alone troubleshooting/repairing it in the field. I could write a novel here on why they don't "do it" for me.
 

shortbus4x4

Expedition Leader
Hehe, I was just throwing Hino out there as a conversation piece due to the Toyota ties. Dorton, in all seriousness, if you chose to go the route of a late model GM engine I can trade you tutoring on late model GM swaps for your tutoring me on the ways of Toyota being I just got a 4Runner last week. :)

Expo is the only online community outside of diesel specific forums that I know of where the vocal masses drink from the diesel fountain. I work for a truck and diesel engine manufacturer. We build diesel engines from 2.0L world market engines to 15L over-the-road Class 8 diesel engines and I wouldn't own a single one of them. Not even our old beloved 6.9L or 7.3L engines or my old ties with the 6.2/6.5L. Diesels stink, they leak, they're distractingly loud, and they're heavy, gutless until the turbo spools up and require way too much maintenance. The fuel costs more and the maintenance costs more. In my opinion, there is no real advantage to a diesel unless you are pulling full GVWR 80% of the time, driving 80,000 miles a year or plan on traveling outside of the Continental USA with your rig. The only real immediate advantage of a diesel is RANGE. Yes, you can obtain higher MPG with a diesel but when you really put a pencil to it the money you save on fuel economy either cost you a fortune at inception for a diesel swap or comes back to get you later when the diesel shoots craps. Really, where in the good ole USA can your average outdoor adventurer go where range is that big of deal that a person cannot pack enough gasoline with them in order to get back to the next fuel stop!? Not many places, if any!....not even in Canyonlands or Death Valley. I run a 425HP 8.1L and haven't ran out of gas yet! Only the very few true Overlanders on this site really benefit from diesel power. The rest of us normal folks that hold fulltime jobs that are weekend warriors with the occasional weeklong adventure can get by with gas engines and still be money a head even at 10 MPG running a 300+ HP gas engine.

Another thing with diesels is when diesels break they break big time and take big money to fix. Look at all of these later model diesel guys with Duramax and Powerjoke engines….even the beloved Cummins. While their friends that bought gas engines in the same model of truck only have to pay $100 for spark plugs, wires and fuel filter at 100,000 miles the diesel guys are buying $4000 worth of injectors if they pay a dealer to make the repairs. A late model V8 gas engine is more than able to deliver 300,000 miles of durable service backed by easy 300HP with 12 to 15 MPG in light duty truck. There are reasons why major US fleets are moving away from diesel engines back to gasoline. Start listening to the brown trucks that deliver packages to your house and place of business. The vast majority of the 2007 and later model trucks are now powered by GM gas 4.8 and 6.0L gas engines, not rattily leaky smoky old diesels anymore. Diesels had a place and time….that time has passed.

There are those that are scared to death of computer controls on late model gas engines. I have to tell you that computer control issues on late model GM engines that would leave you on foot are as rare as a Toyota vehicle with a legitimate sudden acceleration problem. It just doesn't happen! And if someone is worried, there are only about 5 parts to carry with you if it makes someone feel more secure knowing they have the staples to get home.

Opinions are like bellybuttons, everybody has one. The chocolate vs. vanilla, Coke vs. Pepsi, Bud vs. Coors and the Diesel vs. Gas debate will go on forever. I am just voicing my opinion based on experience in the vehicle manufacturing industry and personal dusty trail travel.

I love diesels but you hit the nail on the head. In most cases its just not cost effective to run diesels here in the US unless you are hauling stuff long distance for a living. Right now where I am diesel is .70 cents a gallon more than regular unleaded. The mpg differences between new gas and diesel engines aren't all that much. If you are swapping a diesel into a rig you will be paying a premium for the diesel engine versus a FI gas engine. The older mechanical diesels were easy to work on but the new ones are just as complicated as a gas engine. A Chevy 5.3 or 6.0 would be relatively cheap and easy to install in your Chevy and would be decent mileage. Larry what kind of mileage are you getting from your sweet 8.1 Chevy since you did the NV4500 conversion?
 

Larry

Bigassgas Explorer
Larry what kind of mileage are you getting from your sweet 8.1 Chevy since you did the NV4500 conversion?

It is kind of hard to say exactly as the speedo isn't exactly the most accurate thing in the world with the truck having non-stock gears (4:56), tire size, etc. Plus I also run two different tire types/sizes depending on the destination. If a local CO mountain trip is in the plan, I run Q78x16 bias ply Super Swamper TSL's that are around 35.5” tall. For long distance trips to UT or AZ I run 315/75R16 radial All-Terrains which are about an inch shorter and much wider. That all being said, the truck feels on par with my stock 2001 Silverado HD that also has an 8.1L and 6-speeed manual at 10-12 MPG even with the K10 weighing in at close to 8,000 lbs. when packed for a week-long trip. What hurts me is the K10 has tiny fuel tanks being it is a short bed so I have to carry a few cans of fuel when we do our desert excursions. Although the nice thing about a big block you don't need to work it hard on the trail. On the trail I am just lugging around in high range in 3rd gear at about 1000 RPM while others are spinning higher RPM's in 4LO with their small blocks. The big block makes really nice low end diesel like torque but can get mean and thirsty if you leave your toe nail marks in the floor board too often like when we go play in the snow. On the trail is possible to get better fuel economy out of a big block than a small block.

There was a huge noticeable difference in fuel economy going from a carbureted engine to this SFI big block and the NV4500 overdrive transmission made it even better on the highway. The overdrive trans alone probably got me an additional 1 to 2 MPG increase on the highway running at 65-70 MPH.
 

redthies

Renaissance Redneck
I found the same thing going from a 460 5 speed to a 300 auto. Way smaller truck with the six, but you have to work it hard. With my big block five speed I just idled everywhere. I got much better mileage from the big engine if I drove sedately. The big blocks will also last longer overa small block due to the lower revs needed to move trucks of the same size. I am currently shopping for. 92-97 F350, and while I will look at a Powerstroke, my first choice is a 460. I won't bother looking at 351 powered trucks.
 

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