How to make a cheap isolated dual-battery setup for $50

dlichterman

Explorer
evldave, thank you so much for this writeup. I am in the process of acquiring parts, and will have an aux deep cycle with solar for a soon-to-be-purchased fridge and maybe some lights. However - the question about self-jumping came up - has anyone here used a simple timer circuit on the 12V to the fusebox? I was thinking a 15 second or 30 second delay would be perfect so that it waits just a little bit before it has power before the batteries are connected. That or I buy the 500A one.....

Thanks again!
 

JSyrja

New member
I've actually been looking at the timer issue, as I plan on adding a second battery as well. It should be doable with a simple resistor, capacitor and a transistor, I haven't tested it out yet for timing. My understanding is that based on the component values of the resistor and capacitor, there will be a small delay as the capacitor charges before enough voltage builds to trip the transistor. Down side is that I believe there will also be a small delay in turn off as the capacitor discharges, so the solenoid would be held open after the 12v source is turned off. I believe this could be corrected for though by isolating the timer with a DPDT relay, and shunting it to ground to drain in the "off" position.

The problem though, as has been said, is that the solenoids tend to fail in the on position, which ultimately makes the timing circuit useless any ways. If it's failed "on" and you've drained the starting battery, you've drained the second as well. What's really needed before a timer is a circuit that will alert your to solenoid failure.

I have the parts to test out the timer circuit, but I plan on getting a winch, so I'd need the 500 amp solenoid. That's actually something I haven't seen mentioned on here yet though either. If you're going to run a winch off of both batteries, you'll need the higher rated solenoid, and the cheap 80A ones wont hold up to the current in the lines when you use it. A VR10000 is specced to use 502A at 10,000lb pull. It pulls 160A at 2,000lbs.

I've been trying to think of a simple way to tell if the solenoid is gone, but haven't been able to think of a way yet, I'm not an electronic engineer and I tend to over look things with circuits. I do know I want a small piezzo buzzer for a warning.
 

dlichterman

Explorer
I've actually been looking at the timer issue, as I plan on adding a second battery as well. It should be doable with a simple resistor, capacitor and a transistor, I haven't tested it out yet for timing. My understanding is that based on the component values of the resistor and capacitor, there will be a small delay as the capacitor charges before enough voltage builds to trip the transistor. Down side is that I believe there will also be a small delay in turn off as the capacitor discharges, so the solenoid would be held open after the 12v source is turned off. I believe this could be corrected for though by isolating the timer with a DPDT relay, and shunting it to ground to drain in the "off" position.

The problem though, as has been said, is that the solenoids tend to fail in the on position, which ultimately makes the timing circuit useless any ways. If it's failed "on" and you've drained the starting battery, you've drained the second as well. What's really needed before a timer is a circuit that will alert your to solenoid failure.

I have the parts to test out the timer circuit, but I plan on getting a winch, so I'd need the 500 amp solenoid. That's actually something I haven't seen mentioned on here yet though either. If you're going to run a winch off of both batteries, you'll need the higher rated solenoid, and the cheap 80A ones wont hold up to the current in the lines when you use it. A VR10000 is specced to use 502A at 10,000lb pull. It pulls 160A at 2,000lbs.

I've been trying to think of a simple way to tell if the solenoid is gone, but haven't been able to think of a way yet, I'm not an electronic engineer and I tend to over look things with circuits. I do know I want a small piezzo buzzer for a warning.

I guess a better question would be is 500A enough to self-jump without frying something? I guess I just don't really know how much power the starter uses when starting a vehicle. Would you be able to wire a light to each side of the solenoid and it would only light up when the circuit is closed? That could be a way to tell - when the batteries are joined the light would be on, and off when isolated. If the light stays on after shutting off the vehicle, you've got a problem? I've gotta be missing something.....

Edit: Wait. Yeah, I'm a tard, the light would always be on....current would flow through the LED.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
I think some of the IBS (Intelligent Battery System) do use timers, but I think that LVD (Low-Voltage Disconnect) is more common. The brain just waits for the voltage on one side to rise high enough to indicate that charging is occurring, then ties the batteries.

According to the Delco-Remy docs, peak draw of their starters can be anywhere between 3.0kw and 4.5.kw:

http://www.delcoremy.com/documents/electrical-specifications---selection-guide.aspx

The specs for starter solenoids (more correctly called a starter switch or relay in that context) listed in that document don't show the amps ratings. But just taking the first one listed, 1114532, and running a search, finds this page:

http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/relays.asp

which lists a Cole Hersee 24037, which is a direct replacement for the Delco-Remy 1114532. That page lists the capacity of the Cole Hersee 24037 as "750 Amp Inrush/ 100 Amp Carry Current Rating".


According to this:

http://www.warn.com/truck/ReplacementParts/parts/294/86254A1_ps.pdf

the Warn VR10000 apparently uses the Warn 72631 solenoid (item 62 in the parts list).

Can't find current carrying specs for that part by searching the net, but I would bet a bunch that there is no way that's a 500a solenoid. As I recall, most Warn control packs use solenoids of 80a, 160a or 175a ratings.
 
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JSyrja

New member
I guess a better question would be is 500A enough to self-jump without frying something? I guess I just don't really know how much power the starter uses when starting a vehicle. Would you be able to wire a light to each side of the solenoid and it would only light up when the circuit is closed? That could be a way to tell - when the batteries are joined the light would be on, and off when isolated. If the light stays on after shutting off the vehicle, you've got a problem? I've gotta be missing something.....

Edit: Wait. Yeah, I'm a tard, the light would always be on....current would flow through the LED.

You might be able to do something like that, but you'd be slowly draining the battery powering the LED, minimal drain, but still there. I'll have to give that one some think.

And DWH, I was referencing the Warn vr10000 site page, http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/VR10000_winch.shtml , under 12V performance specs.

With the Delco Remy starters with a max peak draw of 4.5kw, that equates to 375A at 12V on start up and 430A off a battery drawn down to 10.5V.
 

dlichterman

Explorer
With the Delco Remy starters with a max peak draw of 4.5kw, that equates to 375A at 12V on start up and 430A off a battery drawn down to 10.5V.

So then I should just get the 500A one which should be ok for a self-jump.

Got my solar stuff today, all seems to work fine, so it's a matter of mounting the battery(custom bracket :?) and getting the isolation stuff now.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
And DWH, I was referencing the Warn vr10000 site page, http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/VR10000_winch.shtml , under 12V performance specs.

Yea, I know. What I was pointing out is that WARN doesn't use a 500a solenoid for that winch.

With the Delco Remy starters with a max peak draw of 4.5kw, that equates to 375A at 12V on start up and 430A off a battery drawn down to 10.5V.

Again, I know. And again, I was pointing out that they don't use a 500a solenoid for their starters either.


If Warn and Delco-Remy don't use 500a rated solenoids, then it's highly unlikely anyone else is gonna need one.


If a winch draws 500a at full load, and the alternator supplies say 100a, that would mean you'd need 200a from each battery to make up the difference. Though if the batteries were different - say a cranking battery and a deep cycle, more amps would flow from the primary "cranking battery" which is designed to dump amps faster than a deep cycle house battery.

That means a 200a rated solenoid would be plenty if you had a pair of cranking batteries, and probably something smaller would be fine if you had one cranking and one deep cycle.

For DC motors, it's the peak inrush current that matters. That 4.5kw starter load only lasts about a 10th of a second as the rotor moves from a dead stop to rotating. So that Cole Hersee rated at 750a inrush and 100a continuous would probably be just fine for 99.9% of "self-jump" needs.

And the winch might draw 500a momentarily when it starts up, but once it's turning it's gonna draw less.
 
Well I finished the installation and let the truck running for an hour with both battery, the multimeter (msr) was at 14.49 with both battery, I was expecting smoke, let's see tomorrow

Sent from my DROID BIONIC
 

ETAV8R

Founder of D.E.R.P.
Where is everyone getting trays to mount a second battery under the hood?
I have a 2009 Tacoma and there is definitely a place for a tray.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Well I finished the installation and let the truck running for an hour with both battery, the multimeter (msr) was at 14.49 with both battery, I was expecting smoke, let's see tomorrow

Sent from my DROID BIONIC

If you take a DC (most only do AC) current clamp meter (measures amp flow) and clamp it around the hot wire to the battery, what you will see is that once the battery rises to 14.5v, there will be very little amps flowing. It doesn't take long for a battery to reach a "surface charge" of 14.5v...after that, the batteries are just getting a trickle charge.

If you were gonna buy a DC clamp meter, it would be best to get one which can sample and hold "inrush current":

http://www.amazon.com/Sinometer-MS2108-True-RMS-Current-Measurement/dp/B0017WRH7O



But if both batteries rose to the same voltage, then it looks like you got it working. Good job!
 

VanIsle_Greg

I think I need a bigger truck!
18 pages...and still one of the better threads here!

I cant remember if I posted this, but I finally freed up the spot for my second battery in my XJ.



Got rid of the stock airbox and replaced it with a Cowl Snorkel...now I have probably enough for a Group 24 Deep Cycle. I cant remember if this was covered off or not (I am certain it probably was, will go back and search...) but is it advisable to match batteries or is it OK to used different starting and house power batteries?

I would prefer the deep cycle for the fridge, lights, accessories than one that will probably never start the vehicle, unless it is a jump and only when needed. Great thread!

*goes back and researches first 17 pages*
 
If you take a DC (most only do AC) current clamp meter (measures amp flow) and clamp it around the hot wire to the battery, what you will see is that once the battery rises to 14.5v, there will be very little amps flowing. It doesn't take long for a battery to reach a "surface charge" of 14.5v...after that, the batteries are just getting a trickle charge.

If you were gonna buy a DC clamp meter, it would be best to get one which can sample and hold "inrush current":

http://www.amazon.com/Sinometer-MS2108-True-RMS-Current-Measurement/dp/B0017WRH7O



But if both batteries rose to the same voltage, then it looks like you got it working. Good job!

thanks man

I go one clamp meter , let's see how it flows.
 
GregB_00XJ well if you are putting your batteries in series yes you have to match batteries, that is not our case, but in your case and my that the batteries are parallel they don't have to match.
 

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