Can't decide what full size diesel.....

[SpeedAddict502]

I currently have a 95 reg cab long bed 4x4 12V Cummins with an automatic. It is in good shape, but it does need some work and my wife and I are really wanting something with at least some type of back seat. So I have been trying to decide what truck I want. I am a huge Cummins fan, so it was only going to be a Dodge of course. I was set on an 03 to 04 Crew Cab short bed with a manual. However the fact that the injectors only seem to last 150k miles, and the front end seems to always have some kind of issues. Either very short ujoint life, everything wearing out, or things like that.

Now the other day I come to find that swapping a 12V into even a newer Ford diesel is actually pretty easy and not too expensive. There are quite a few cheap 6.0 Powerstrokes out there that are begging for a 12V. I would be looking at an 05-07 Ford with the coil spring upgrade front end, which also gets a Dana 60. The only thing with the Ford's, is that they are actually quite a bit bigger in crew cab short bed, and similar in SuperCab short bed.

My question is this. For a truck that I want to keep a long time, which lasts better, excluding the 6.0 issue in the Fords. I have always heard that the Ford is built more heavy duty frame, steering and suspension wise, and even interior wise. Any truth to that from anyone with experience?

This truck would eventually get a Four Wheel Camper, and will be used to tow a trailer with a crawler and motorcycles on it. Also used to drive around in some daily chores and general hauling in the bed or trailer.

So where is my money better spent?

Thanks!

 

[Saiyan66]

The Ford and the Dodge are both heavy duty enough to do what you want for many years. The Dodge I believe has a better frame and has a shorter wheelbase due to the fact that it isn't a full crew cab. The Ford super cab is pretty small compared to the quad cab Dodge, and the crew cab Ford is bigger still. The 05+ Ford has a better front axle and is an all around great truck, but swapping motors is a pain regardless. If you are worried about injectors, honestly they are a problem on all modern common rail diesels and the solution is simple: better fuel filtration. If you run a 2 micron filter kit then you wont have any problems. The Ford does tend to have less electrical/body issues reported. Personally though my family has 2 of the 3rd gen Dodge trucks that are 7-8 years old and have had no problems with 150k plus miles on each.

 

[SpeedAddict502]

Thanks for the input!

It just seems to me like I do hear a lot more about problems with the interior and steering/suspension on the Dodge, but I am on those forums more anyways. That's why I am wondering about if the Ford's really are better, or I just don't know enough yet.

That is good info about the SuperCab, vs Dodge Crew Cab vs Ford Crew Cab. I like the fact that the Dodge Crew Cab is still pretty big, but with much less length and wheelbase.

I do know about the fuel injectors needing clean fuel, and I would be getting a FASS or Air Dog right away on the CRD Cummins, but that's also why I love the 12V. Don't have to worry about that stuff near as much. Plus being fully mechanical is very nice when you are talking about an expedition rig.

I just seem to hear a lot about ujoints and ball joints and even steering gear on the Dodge's when you take them for some off road camping.

The engine swap really doesn't bother me if that would be the better option. A 12V literally takes basically one wire to run with a manual.

Anyone else with some experience on these?

 

[overlanddisco]

Any vehicle will have its weak points, regardless of manufacturer. That's what we do in the off-road community is build out the weak links. It's relatively easy to build the steering and front end on Dodges to be really stout. On the transfer pump/fuel filter- FASS is made in the USA and is still owned by the original designers, Air Dog is ok but not everything is made in USA and they are on second or third owners, IIRC.
De-Stroked (www.destroked.com) has a ton of experience in building trouble-free Fummins. There are a number of folks that have gone this route and couldn't be happier.

You've got some good options to choose from!

 

[Foy]

Slightly older Ford Superduty

Speedy,

I run an '02 F350 SRW CrewCab Longbed 7.3 diesel 4WD. Bone stock except for replacement leaf springs installed as a leveling kit on the front end (OEM springs were sagging and bushings worn out at 180,000 mi).

The truck has 223,000 miles on it now and drives very well. The loooooong wheelbase is great on the highway. Turning radius is ridiculous and it needs 2 parking spaces to avoid one end or the other hanging out (a shade under 21' long). Pretty much just pull to the furthest end of any parking lot, find two front-to-back, and drive through, avoiding backing.

Long-term chassis/suspension issues are crappy front wheel bearing/spindle bearings designed to be nonservicable and prone to failure. Very crappy plastic manual locking hub tabs which become brittle with age and exposure to sun. The crappy hub tabs come in to play when the crappy air hose actuating the automatic locking hubs dry out, crack, leak air, and therefore and stop working. Fixed mine at 160,000 with a pair of Warn Premiums and the willingness to get out and lock the dang things like a man ought to anyway. Replaced rear driveshaft carrier bearing (2-piece shaft) and all U-joints at 185,000 since they were OEM and I was headed off from NC to MT heavily laden and didn't want any problems with old driveline components. Front swaybar bushings went bad at 210,000, as did tie rod ends (second set, now on the third). OEM steering damper out by 210,000, too. OEM limited slip stopped working at around 140,000 and no amount of synthetic gear fluid changing + LS additive will revive it. Need a rear locker, anyway, I'd say.

All in all, and in my opinion understandably, pretty much all the chassis/suspension wear items have gone out between around 160,000 and 210,000 mi. I could have prevented the front wheel bearings from burning out if the dang things were servicable. That said, I've read about replacement hub/bearing kits which replace the OEM crap with fully serviceable ones at about $1,600/pair. I don't want them servicable that badly.

I did avoid the 6.0 woes with the 7.3 (dumb luck) but I have the 4R100 auto trans instead, with its own woes. Tried to find a manual when shopping for used diesels but they're pretty much non-existent here in the East. I probably have one of the longest running never gone into 4R100s anywhere (knock wood). Thinking about pulling and replacing the torque converter with a beefed up one, as it's the TC going out which grenades the 4R100, or so I'm told. Then it's the cost of a good TC instead of a full rebuild/replacement at around $4,000.

Foy

 

[Darwin]

They do make a belt drive gear pump for the CRD Cummins. Might be something to consider over a FASS. You are on the right track going with Cummins.

 

[northfacetraveller]

I like the 12V and 24V trucks. If it were up to me, I would buy a 98-02 quad cab cummins with a manual trans and upgrade the front end with a Dynatrac Free Spin Hub Kit, and rebuildable ball joints, levelling kit and some 35's. That way you eliminate your front end problems, but keep the simplicity of a proven powerplant that has the power to tow whatever you want, good 4WD with manual hubs, troublefree manual trans...

The free spin hub kit isn't cheap, but if you compare it too how much unit bearings cost for those axles, it pretty much pays for itself after one front end rebuild. And its easier than swapping a cummins into a 6L.

 

[redthies]

I like the 12V and 24V trucks. If it were up to me, I would buy a 98-02 quad cab cummins with a manual trans and upgrade the front end with a Dynatrac Free Spin Hub Kit, and rebuildable ball joints, levelling kit and some 35's. That way you eliminate your front end problems, but keep the simplicity of a proven powerplant that has the power to tow whatever you want, good 4WD with manual hubs, troublefree manual trans...

The free spin hub kit isn't cheap, but if you compare it too how much unit bearings cost for those axles, it pretty much pays for itself after one front end rebuild. And its easier than swapping a cummins into a 6L.

Exactly! Don't forget the lift pump if you go 24v. A nice early '98 with four doors and a 12v with 5 spd is the holy grail. I bought my F350 with plans of a 12v swap, but I will wait until the 7.3 dies. It might be a while... 270,000 miles and it runs awesome.

 

[SpeedAddict502]

Speedy,

I run an '02 F350 SRW CrewCab Longbed 7.3 diesel 4WD. Bone stock except for replacement leaf springs installed as a leveling kit on the front end (OEM springs were sagging and bushings worn out at 180,000 mi).

The truck has 223,000 miles on it now and drives very well. The loooooong wheelbase is great on the highway. Turning radius is ridiculous and it needs 2 parking spaces to avoid one end or the other hanging out (a shade under 21' long). Pretty much just pull to the furthest end of any parking lot, find two front-to-back, and drive through, avoiding backing.

Long-term chassis/suspension issues are crappy front wheel bearing/spindle bearings designed to be nonservicable and prone to failure. Very crappy plastic manual locking hub tabs which become brittle with age and exposure to sun. The crappy hub tabs come in to play when the crappy air hose actuating the automatic locking hubs dry out, crack, leak air, and therefore and stop working. Fixed mine at 160,000 with a pair of Warn Premiums and the willingness to get out and lock the dang things like a man ought to anyway. Replaced rear driveshaft carrier bearing (2-piece shaft) and all U-joints at 185,000 since they were OEM and I was headed off from NC to MT heavily laden and didn't want any problems with old driveline components. Front swaybar bushings went bad at 210,000, as did tie rod ends (second set, now on the third). OEM steering damper out by 210,000, too. OEM limited slip stopped working at around 140,000 and no amount of synthetic gear fluid changing + LS additive will revive it. Need a rear locker, anyway, I'd say.

All in all, and in my opinion understandably, pretty much all the chassis/suspension wear items have gone out between around 160,000 and 210,000 mi. I could have prevented the front wheel bearings from burning out if the dang things were servicable. That said, I've read about replacement hub/bearing kits which replace the OEM crap with fully serviceable ones at about $1,600/pair. I don't want them servicable that badly.

I did avoid the 6.0 woes with the 7.3 (dumb luck) but I have the 4R100 auto trans instead, with its own woes. Tried to find a manual when shopping for used diesels but they're pretty much non-existent here in the East. I probably have one of the longest running never gone into 4R100s anywhere (knock wood). Thinking about pulling and replacing the torque converter with a beefed up one, as it's the TC going out which grenades the 4R100, or so I'm told. Then it's the cost of a good TC instead of a full rebuild/replacement at around $4,000.

Foy

Thank you for your comments, greatly appreciated!

They do make a belt drive gear pump for the CRD Cummins. Might be something to consider over a FASS. You are on the right track going with Cummins.

I actually have never seen that, I'll have to look it up. Thanks!

I like the 12V and 24V trucks. If it were up to me, I would buy a 98-02 quad cab cummins with a manual trans and upgrade the front end with a Dynatrac Free Spin Hub Kit, and rebuildable ball joints, levelling kit and some 35's. That way you eliminate your front end problems, but keep the simplicity of a proven powerplant that has the power to tow whatever you want, good 4WD with manual hubs, troublefree manual trans...

The free spin hub kit isn't cheap, but if you compare it too how much unit bearings cost for those axles, it pretty much pays for itself after one front end rebuild. And its easier than swapping a cummins into a 6L.

I haven't been in one, but have heard that for those years the quad cab is still pretty small. I would like to be able to have some of my friends in the back for a few hours if need be. How is the quad cab of those years for full size adults in the back? And the VP44 pump has me gun shy I will admit. But so do injectors in the CRD. If I could get either of them from new and make sure they always had good clean fuel, I wouldnt worry. But at this point I don't know how any of the trucks have been treated.

Exactly! Don't forget the lift pump if you go 24v. A nice early '98 with four doors and a 12v with 5 spd is the holy grail. I bought my F350 with plans of a 12v swap, but I will wait until the 7.3 dies. It might be a while... 270,000 miles and it runs awesome.

Oh yah lift pump would be first, but I don't know how bad it used before I had it so I would feel like it was a ticking time bomb! I have seen one of the holy grail trucks haha. Yah the 7.3's can last forever too, but not quite as good power and MPG as the 12V. Plus the leaf spring front end on those years is good, but the coil spring 05's are really a nice improvement.

If I could pick up a 2005-2007 Ford with a blown 6.0 I think that would be a good deal, but some of you have eased my fears on the CRD as well. I do like the shorter length and wheelbase of the Dodge for off road camping trips.

 

[TurboChris]

Now the other day I come to find that swapping a 12V into even a newer Ford diesel is actually pretty easy and not too expensive.

Thanks!

Not sure where you heard this! 3 years ago when I had my 01 F250 I looked into a conversion.....as I recall it was about $5000 in parts (Not including engine) and over 100 hours of labor. I talked to several VERY well known shops and they were quoting about $12-15k I'd be interested in what you've found as I'd love to do a swap in my 98 Suburban if it could be done cheaper.

 

[redthies]

Not sure where you heard this! 3 years ago when I had my 01 F250 I looked into a conversion.....as I recall it was about $5000 in parts (Not including engine) and over 100 hours of labor. I talked to several VERY well known shops and they were quoting about $12-15k I'd be interested in what you've found as I'd love to do a swap in my 98 Suburban if it could be done cheaper.

I also "heard" it was an easy swap. After buying my '97 F350 with the intention of doing the swap, I am glad I got a 7.3. I was looking at 7.5 gas pots due to how much cheaper they were, but found a strong running 7.3 that I got for a deal. I have a factory Ford diesel mechanic working with me these days, and we have been planning the swap in our heads. If one were to have "all" the parts on hand, we calculated at least 40 hours of labour for the two of us. The key is reading about as many swaps as you can before starting. You can learn from other peoples issues and mistakes. Things like "I didn't bother with clearancing the firewall to allow removal of the rearmost valve cover, so now I have to pull the engine again", could be avoided. Log on to Cumminsforum and go to the "conversions, shop talk, tools" section to read tales of woe and joy! Materials are more like $2000 for a basic swap including a trans adapter, unless you are going twins, nitrous etc etc. I have planned to have a $500 truck to do parts runs etc while the F350 is apart. It will also give me something to drive if the swap runs in to overtime.

All of the above goes out the window if the 7.3 keeps running strong (it only has 270,000 miles), as I really can't be bothered to do the swap even though I loooove the sound and power of a 12v.

 

[poriggity]

As an owner of a Ram with a cummins, and knowing someone who has done the cummins swap into a ford, I would say you will be miles ahead to just do a free spin kit on the front end, along with rebuildable balljoints, and perhaps even an adjustable trackbar, then keep the Dodge. Are you dead set on a 12v? I'm pretty happy with the amount of space in my Quad cab, although its a common rail 24v of the 2004 variety. Just my thoughts, but I think you'd be ahead of the game to keep a decent running and looking Ram, and upgrade the weak areas. If you absolutely have to have a Ford with a Cummins, plan on spending more time and money than you think. As with any project, I suggest setting a rough budget, then triple it, and you'll get into the ballpark.
Scott

 

[redthies]

To be honest, if I had the cash to spare or "wanted" a truck payment, I would have looked for an 05-07 5.9 Cummins rig. I love my Ford, but I miss my 05 3500 quad cab 4x4. The F350 was the best bang for buck in a fullsize turbo diesel crewcab single rear wheel truck.

 

[poriggity]

Funny.. you want a cummins, and I'd die for your F350 I just love those F350's!

 

[redthies]

Funny.. you want a cummins, and I'd die for your F350 I just love those F350's!

Straight trade??? :26_7_2: